Coaches and their Violations

[uncfan103]

For what it's worth...I think Roy Williams should've been fired a long time ago. The firing of Butch Davis shows that the reason Roy Williams is still there is because he won games and I don't think that's the message UNC should be sending. I think the precendent has been set and that Roy should be fired. But, I don't think UNC is going to fire another coach without cause.

 

[Wamu]

Obviously the counselors, professors, tutors, and coaches should all roll. Everyone who knew or contributed. Absolutely. My focus though is that the others don't have a 7 figure salary to do things the right way, and then play the victim that they didn't know, just to save their asses.

But yes, short answer is that all of them are accountable.

Agreed Coach Williams should take more heat due to his salary, & the fact he's the HC. For me this is just a bummer though. I also have family that graduated from Ohio State. So between Roy & Tricky Tressel (no reason to mention Woody, even though I just did) the 2 programs I have rooted for since I can remember have had their issues. Whatever needs to be done...get it done. Even if it means showing Roy the door.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Wainstein Report said that basketball players were enrolled in large numbers in the independent study courses until the spring of 2008 when it slowed significantly.

Also, a possible reason for the AFAM classes lowering in number is because so many of them were majoring in it and he said to make sure they weren't being steered there. Is it illogical to think that he just didn't think it would look good having everyone on the team with the same major? I know it looks bad at duke when everyone has the same major and the student body does not have an interest in the major. Major he just felt like they were smart enough to major in other things, instead of easy classes.

Not in my opinion. If Roy took over in 2003, that is 5 years that it took, and if he was really trying to be compliant, he would have found out much sooner. It's not illogical in and of itself for them to take the same major, but if the particulars (which should have been uncovered sooner than 5 years) showed that the players' academic levels were not matching grades, then that is where the red flags raise.

What happened in 2008 should have happened in 2004. Then, he should have reported it to show that he just got there, wanted to be compliant, found it, and then reported it. Then he would be clear. Instead, it happened for 5 years before he found it. Then he said not to, whereby it still occurred, but with less frequency. He then kept his mouth shut when he should have reported it. And ultimately it blew up in his face when it was uncovered and made public.

 

[uncfan103]

Not in my opinion. If Roy took over in 2003, that is 5 years that it took, and if he was really trying to be compliant, he would have found out much sooner. It's not illogical in and of itself for them to take the same major, but if the particulars (which should have been uncovered sooner than 5 years) showed that the players' academic levels were not matching grades, then that is where the red flags raise.

What happened in 2008 should have happened in 2004. Then, he should have reported it to show that he just got there, wanted to be compliant, found it, and then reported it. Then he would be clear. Instead, it happened for 5 years before he found it. Then he said not to, whereby it still occurred, but with less frequency. He then kept his mouth shut when he should have reported it. And ultimately it blew up in his face when it was uncovered and made public.

You expect him to change students majors? 5 years could've been two years and realized that he had two classes that chose the same major and then checked to make sure they weren't being steered there?

 

[CatsTopPac]

Agreed Coach Williams should take more heat due to his salary, & the fact he's the HC. For me this is just a bummer though. I also have family that graduated from Ohio State. So between Roy & Tricky Tressel (no reason to mention Woody, even though I just did) the 2 programs I have rooted for since I can remember have had their issues. Whatever needs to be done...get it done. Even if it means showing Roy the door.

I agree. If anything like this happened at AZ, I would be crushed.

Jason Terry took some money back in the day, but that was proved to be isolated, and I thought the punishment was warranted. Some players took some candy from a machine in like 2002, and again, it was isolated. Finally, when Lute was on his way out, he signed a letter that went out that was illegal, but by that time, I don't really think Lute had all his marbles. Even though all of those were really isolated incidents over decades, it still pisses me off. That's where I can get that all programs have had isolated situations. But that's not even close to the same kind of "dirty" that we're talking about elsewhere.

If anything were to come out like this with Miller, I would seriously re-evaluate my allegiance to AZ basketball until he was out, and I thought the program was clean again. Not to say you should or whatever, but I'm just saying that I would feel the same way if it were AZ instead of UNC or SU.

 

[CatsTopPac]

You expect him to change students majors? 5 years could've been two years and realized that he had two classes that chose the same major and then checked to make sure they weren't being steered there?

They can pick whatever majors they want. What I'm saying is that regardless of the major, if the classes are imaginary and the grades are not reflecting the player's academic abilities, then that's my red flag. If all my players picked the same major, that's not particularly crazy to me. Hell, it could have been communications, or family studies.

The fact that it took 5 years for him to find out that those courses/assignments were bogus tells me that he didn't have anything near satisfactory in place for him to know if something was wrong. He wasn't proactive in being compliant.

 

[uncfan103]

They can pick whatever majors they want. What I'm saying is that regardless of the major, if the classes are imaginary and the grades are not reflecting the player's academic abilities, then that's my red flag. If all my players picked the same major, that's not particularly crazy to me. Hell, it could have been communications, or family studies.

The fact that it took 5 years for him to find out that those courses/assignments were bogus tells me that he didn't have anything near satisfactory in place for him to know if something was wrong. He wasn't proactive in being compliant.

I'm done with this. I'm saying it could've been 5 years because once you declare majors you're going to stay there. So, maybe it was two years and the next three years were the same students that had declared AFAM as their major. He's not going in and after a year or two telling sophomores to change majors from AFAM to something else. The fact is clustering athletes into majors that the student body is not majoring in is a concern. I'm not sure how you expect that red flag either, it's not common knowledge that the classes are imaginary. Regular, every day, non athletes were in the classes as well. Sure, it would be nice to be able to tell that someones grades didn't match his ability, but you make it seem so easy to know how their getting their grades, and you make it seem like athletes can't put forth effort, the tutors can't effectively tutor, etc. But yes, in theory it would be very nice to know that classes are fake. And it would be nice to know what a player should be completely capable of doing and what's "too good".

 

[CatsTopPac]

I'm done with this. I'm saying it could've been 5 years because once you declare majors you're going to stay there. So, maybe it was two years and the next three years were the same students that had declared AFAM as their major. He's not going in and after a year or two telling sophomores to change majors from AFAM to something else. The fact is clustering athletes into majors that the student body is not majoring in is a concern. I'm not sure how you expect that red flag either, it's not common knowledge that the classes are imaginary. Regular, every day, non athletes were in the classes as well. Sure, it would be nice to be able to tell that someones grades didn't match his ability, but you make it seem so easy to know how their getting their grades, and you make it seem like athletes can't put forth effort, the tutors can't effectively tutor, etc. But yes, in theory it would be very nice to know that classes are fake. And it would be nice to know what a player should be completely capable of doing and what's "too good".

That's fair. At the end of the day, "I didn't know" is completely unacceptable.

 

[trojanfan12]

All of this preaching about what coaches should know and how much control they should have over their players is great in theory and making over the top statements about it certainly makes one look like they want their program to be above any kind of shenanigans.

However, in the real world, it's bullshit and pinning too much responsibility on coaches. Coaches shouldn't be held responsible for what players do off the court/field and away from campus. It's impossible for a parent to know everything their kids are doing when those kids are not at home and out of the parents direct supervision. So why do we expect coaches to know what their players are up to when they are off campus and out of the coaches direct supervision?

Obviously, if the coach is proven to be directly involved or that he was alerted to what was going on, that's a different story. But to expect a coach to know everything that is happening with their players is unrealistic and isn't a standard that those claiming they should know would want to be held to themselves.

Using my beloved Trojans as an example. In the NCAA's investigation, our basketball coach was accused of directly paying OJ Mayo $1,000 to come to USC (he's never confirmed or denied the allegation, so I'm assuming it's true) and Reggie Bush and his family received stuff they weren't supposed to in order to entice him to leave USC early and sign with a particular wannabe agent.

Obviously, Tim Floyd knew what was done re: OJ Mayo, because he was directly involved. But how the hell was Pete Carroll supposed to know what the Bush family was up to 3 hours away from campus when the wannabe agent himself said "everything was away off campus, behind closed doors. We knew we had to do it that way because Reggie could get in trouble."?

Not trying to start a USC vs. the NCAA discussion, just pointing out that knowing what the players are up to isn't nearly as easy or possible as some like to think.

Oh, and if you don't buy into the parents not knowing/coaches not knowing. Ask anyone with kids over the age of 25 about the Christmas or Thanksgiving family gathering where the kids told the parents about the stuff they did that the parents didn't know about. Those can be very entertaining

 

[kramer1]

Um, coaches watch over their players like a hawk. They're better caretakers of those kids than any parent ever could be. They absolutely know every single thing that's going on.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Um, coaches watch over their players like a hawk. They're better caretakers of those kids than any parent ever could be. They absolutely know every single thing that's going on.

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with there.

Depends greatly on the coach and the player and the parent. No doubt there are some coaches that are more strict than some of their players' parents, but to suggest it is that way across the board is approaching your usual level of stupidity.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

All of this preaching about what coaches should know and how much control they should have over their players is great in theory and making over the top statements about it certainly makes one look like they want their program to be above any kind of shenanigans.

However, in the real world, it's bullshit and pinning too much responsibility on coaches. Coaches shouldn't be held responsible for what players do off the court/field and away from campus. It's impossible for a parent to know everything their kids are doing when those kids are not at home and out of the parents direct supervision. So why do we expect coaches to know what their players are up to when they are off campus and out of the coaches direct supervision?

I agree with you in general. Coaches can't be expected to know everything with regards to their players. That's completely unrealistic. But at the same time, plausible deniability will only get you so far. At some point you have to say either the coach should have known or he was willfully ignorant which is just as bad, if not worse.

The tricky part is figuring out what falls in that middle ground, and how to enforce it consistently. But the biggest problem I have is the wildly inconsistent punishments they dole out.

Look at Scam Newton and all the shit that happened with his family and his recruitment. Oh, Auburn said they didn't know? Slap on the wrist and move on. Coach K didn't know about Corey Magette? No worries. It's all good.

Calipari plays Derrick Rose after the NCAA cleared him. NCAA retroactively unclears him (without bothering to prove if he had fake test results or not, without proving if anyone at Memphis had any involvement or knowledge of it or not) Fuck you. Strict liability motherfuckers. Same with USC. Oh, you say you didn't know what Reggie Bush was doing? Fuck you, give us all your shit back. All of it.

Who knows what will happen at UNC? They could get the death penalty, or Ol Roy might have to write "I will not enroll my players in fraudulent classes" a hundred times on the blackboard in Mark Emmert's office. Nothing would surprise me.

But if they're going to let some teams get away with murder, then let everybody do it, or if they're going to drop the hammer for any little bullshit, then do to everybody. At least pretend you're not grossly incompetent at your only job. Fake it for a few years until the next bag of flatulence takes over. That's all I'm asking.

 

[7Samurai13]

What was the slap on the wrist for Cam Newton? Nobody was punished at all for Newton's dad trying to whore out his son's services.

 

[trojanfan12]

I agree with you in general. Coaches can't be expected to know everything with regards to their players. That's completely unrealistic. But at the same time, plausible deniability will only get you so far. At some point you have to say either the coach should have known or he was willfully ignorant which is just as bad, if not worse.

The tricky part is figuring out what falls in that middle ground, and how to enforce it consistently. But the biggest problem I have is the wildly inconsistent punishments they dole out.

Look at Scam Newton and all the shit that happened with his family and his recruitment. Oh, Auburn said they didn't know? Slap on the wrist and move on. Coach K didn't know about Corey Magette? No worries. It's all good.

Calipari plays Derrick Rose after the NCAA cleared him. NCAA retroactively unclears him (without bothering to prove if he had fake test results or not, without proving if anyone at Memphis had any involvement or knowledge of it or not) Fuck you. Strict liability motherfuckers. Same with USC. Oh, you say you didn't know what Reggie Bush was doing? Fuck you, give us all your shit back. All of it.

Who knows what will happen at UNC? They could get the death penalty, or Ol Roy might have to write "I will not enroll my players in fraudulent classes" a hundred times on the blackboard in Mark Emmert's office. Nothing would surprise me.

But if they're going to let some teams get away with murder, then let everybody do it, or if they're going to drop the hammer for any little bullshit, then do to everybody. At least pretend you're not grossly incompetent at your only job. Fake it for a few years until the next bag of flatulence takes over. That's all I'm asking.

I agree 100%. I think every coach operates under a certain amount of plausible deniability. Things like, that booster or 2 that the coach knows is out there, knows who he is, but never actually gets introduced to him.

I think the NCAA needs "sentencing guidelines" (like we have in our legal system) with minimum and maximum penalties. This nonsense of the NCAA not having guidelines so that they "can handle each case individually" is clearly not working and it's making their handling of these cases look arbitrary at best and corrupt at worst.

 

[trojanfan12]

What was the slap on the wrist for Cam Newton? Nobody was punished at all for Newton's dad trying to whore out his son's services.

Didn't the NCAA suspend Cam's Dad for a game or something?

 

[CatsTopPac]

Again, not being able to know absolutely everything that happens in a player's time at a school is one thing, but having systematic violations occurring over a decade that took place within an aspect that coaches are responsible for (eligibility), is completely different.

If I walk up to Stanley Johnson and cut him a check for $10,000, there is absolutely no way to know that unless he or I tell someone. That shouldn't be on a coach and a program. But that's not what we're talking about here.

We are talking about coaches that pawn this "Poor me, I didn't know" bullshit when it's been going on right in front of them year after year player after player. In these cases, there are numerous red flags that a coach needs to be looking for and not just sticking his head in the sand and then later trying to hide behind not knowing. That shit doesn't fly.

If you actually put measures in place that are proactive in trying to be compliant, then you can point to those if something still manages to slip past you. But when you are not taking responsibility for the players in your program to the extent that the violations become systematic and not isolated, then yeah, there is some serious culpability there.

What happened at SU and UNC fall under this category. You can't catch everything, but if you aren't even looking, then you have no leg to stand on. If you put measures in place (within reason) to catch instances of violation (especially when they can be normalized over decades), then you can demonstrate that you are trying to be compliant. Not to say that the NCAA will let you off scott free, but it at least demonstrates that you were trying, and that helps excuse the university.

I'm sorry, but if someone tries to tell me that Roy Williams or Jim Boeheim can't find out about something that has been happening for over a decade in their program, I call some serious bullshit. They run those universities and towns, and nothing in their programs go on that long unless they know, or they specifically turn a blind eye. If it's a one-time thing, I get it. It's impossible to have 100% control over anything. No one wants that. But when it's happened for a decade or longer, then save the tears.

If these coaches wanted to know, they could have, if they didn't know already. If they really wanted to be compliant then violations would not have occurred for as long as it did. Plain and simple. And if my program legacy is on the line, I am doing whatever I can to be compliant. There is nothing in the "real world" that tells me avoiding a decade's worth of violations is impossible. I'm not concerned with isolated incidents. I'm concerned with systemic wrongdoing, and then playing the victim.

 

[006]

Get to start all over again

Tennessee Volunteers fire basketball coach Donnie Tyndall - ESPN

 

[Irish7478]

I think the compliance issue is all overblown. Anyone that thinks athletes are not receiving preferential treatment has their head in the sand.

To just say Roy or Boeheim deserve some great penalty...you might as well lock them all up. Because they all do this shit. All of them. Just some get caught or are unable to slime their way out so easily.

All of cbb and cfb is about the money. Nothing more.

Possibly it's not as widespread as you think. When you get caught its easy to say everyone is doing it, but sometimes it's just you doing it, and that's why you got caught.