Coaches and their Violations

[uncfan103]

If you are recruiting a player that you know has bad grades in hs, and barely passes his SATs, then clearly that player is going to need attention to maintain eligibility. Like you said, coaches are familiar with grades and how classes are going. If the "easy classes" are an elective like basket weaving, that's one thing. But if it's a major, and the coaches notice that player after player is choosing this major and these classes, and all of a sudden players that were struggling in hs are rolling through college, then how could the coaches not know??

The fact is that with players being at workouts, meals, practices, film sessions, on the road together, at tourneys, and games, they see quite a bit of each other. The tutors are another source of accountability of the players for the coaches. No one is saying that they need to sit in class with them, but when a coach's salary and the legacy of the program rests on it, then the coaches have more than enough opportunities to be involved to the point that they would see this happening before it went on for years and years.

If you are an assistant, and you are watching grades and classes, and all of these players start picking a major that is the same, and while watching grades you notice that players are cruising through classes that they used to struggle in, and you know what the consequences are, how could you not be all over that? How do the assistants then not tell the head coach? Knowing what is at stake for his own program and position, how is he not the first one to get in front of it and make sure he distances it from the program by showing everything he has in place to prevent it?

The only way you don't is if you already know about it, or you maintain a culture of "out of sight, out of mind".

I agree with all of that. But, you don't know the students that were gifted grades in high school to keep them eligible, you don't know what their high school was like, you just assume "wow, sociology is easier for students than psychology and move along". If simply having a major that athletes were steered to was a crime then a lot of universities would be in trouble. Sure, if players started to make As in classes they were constantly being tutored and were working half as hard, sure you'd look into it.

And, for what it's worth, since this became about UNC/Syracuse Roy steered his players away from the independent study courses and into lecture based courses during his time at UNC. So, he put a stop to it, which is something you said you would do.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

So, he put a stop to it, which is something you said you would do.

Not very damn well.

 

[CatsTopPac]

I agree with all of that. But, you don't know the students that were gifted grades in high school to keep them eligible, you don't know what their high school was like, you just assume "wow, sociology is easier for students than psychology and move along". If simply having a major that athletes were steered to was a crime then a lot of universities would be in trouble. Sure, if players started to make As in classes they were constantly being tutored and were working half as hard, sure you'd look into it.

And, for what it's worth, since this became about UNC/Syracuse Roy steered his players away from the independent study courses and into lecture based courses during his time at UNC. So, he put a stop to it, which is something you said you would do.

I'm not claiming to know the ins and outs of every player and their academic history. If we are talking about classes, I make sure that the classes that so many of my players are taking are legit. It doesn't mean me going to class. It means that the coaches and tutors that I have in place to make sure my players are eligible (who are tracking the assignment, grades, and classes) inform me on absolutely any potential of trouble that I need to put a stop to, or at least investigate. If I see any wrong doing, I report it immediately, and I outline everything that I had in place to prevent and comply. That isolates this from a greater systemic problem, to an isolated incident of the student that is physically beyond my control.

If Roy knew that something was wrong enough to make his players switch courses, he should have gotten to the bottom of why, and reported it immediately. There really is no reason why it should have gone on for even a couple years, and then him simply telling his athletes to take lectures and not reporting it. If my legacy is on the line, something like this isn't happening.

 

[uncfan103]

I'm not claiming to know the ins and outs of every player and their academic history. If we are talking about classes, I make sure that the classes that so many of my players are taking are legit. It doesn't mean me going to class. It means that the coaches and tutors that I have in place to make sure my players are eligible (who are tracking the assignment, grades, and classes) inform me on absolutely any potential of trouble that I need to put a stop to, or at least investigate. If I see any wrong doing, I report it immediately, and I outline everything that I had in place to prevent and comply. That isolates this from a greater systemic problem, to an isolated incident of the student that is physically beyond my control.

If Roy knew that something was wrong enough to make his players switch courses, he should have gotten to the bottom of why, and reported it immediately. There really is no reason why it should have gone on for even a couple years, and then him simply telling his athletes to take lectures and not reporting it. If my legacy is on the line, something like this isn't happening.

Okay, how do you expect your coaches and tutors to have any idea the classes are not legit?

I mean seriously? Everything you're saying sounds good and dandy but it's not as easy as your make it seem, IMO.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

So, he put a stop to it, which is something you said you would do.

Okay, allow me to rephrase...

What the fuck did Roy do to put a stop to it other than tell UNC fans that he tried to put a stop to it? (after he went on record as saying he didn't know anything about it in the first place)

Kinda hard to put a stop to things that you claim you don't know about isn't it?

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Okay, how do you expect your coaches and tutors to have any idea the classes are not legit?

I mean seriously? Everything you're saying sounds good and dandy but it's not as easy as your make it seem, IMO.

Look for patterns.

Any more questions?

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

I think as a head coach of a basketball program you are responsible for your student athletes when it comes to their performance in the classroom. But, I do not believe it is the head coaches responsibility to look into the university and question the education student athletes are receiving. I don't think that is the job of a head coach. Also, I don't have any idea how a coach is supposed to monitor what student athletes do in their free time, whether they're hanging out with the wrong crowd, accepting "benefits", etc. I think it is the head coaches job to recruit players who don't need a staff member following them around 24/7, they need to recruit athletes that aren't going to take benefits and are going to do their schoolwork. But, it is in no way, shape, or form the head coaches responsibility to go to class and know what is being taught. They shouldn't be responsible for knowing if a student athlete is cheating, or if he is attending sham classes.

Is it the head coach's responsibility to recruit players that don't borrow rental cars that were rented by a convicted felon/school supporter? (or his girlfriend?)

 

[uncfan103]

Okay, allow me to rephrase...

What the fuck did Roy do to put a stop to it other than tell UNC fans that he tried to put a stop to it? (after he went on record as saying he didn't know anything about it in the first place)

Kinda hard to put a stop to things that you claim you don't know about isn't it?

Athletes were in classes when he got hired in 2003 and then no longer in the classes after a few years. He still hasn't been on record saying there was something he knew wrong with the classes. He just had took his athletes out of the classes. He might not have thought they were fishy, he may have known they were shams, or he could've just wanted athletes in lecture courses. But still, it stopped. And, in my opinion, regardless of why it stopped it's commendable. There are majors at every university that are for athletes, and those coaches don't take their athletes out of them.

 

[Wamu]

Look for patterns.

Any more questions?

Yes one more question. If you have 24 odds & end sitting on a table a one of 'em falls off what are ya left with...an odd or an end?


That was a question George Carlin never got an answer for!

 

[uncfan103]

Is it the head coach's responsibility to recruit players that don't borrow rental cars that were rented by a convicted felon/school supporter? (or his girlfriend?)

If you want to make sure you're not breaking any rules, than yes. You recruit high character players that aren't going to risk the reputation of your school or your program.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Athletes were in classes when he got hired in 2003 and then no longer in the classes after a few years. He still hasn't been on record saying there was something he knew wrong with the classes. He just had took his athletes out of the classes. He might not have thought they were fishy, he may have known they were shams, or he could've just wanted athletes in lecture courses. But still, it stopped. And, in my opinion, regardless of why it stopped it's commendable. There are majors at every university that are for athletes, and those coaches don't take their athletes out of them.

There were 54 basketball player enrollments in AFAM independent studies during Dean Smith's 36 years, 17 during Bill Guthridge's three years, 42 during Matt Doherty's three years, and 167 in Williams' 11 years.

Bang up job of stopping it.

 

[Wamu]

There were 54 basketball player enrollments in AFAM independent studies during Dean Smith's 36 years, 17 during Bill Guthridge's three years, 42 during Matt Doherty's three years, and 167 in Williams' 11 years.

Bang up job of stopping it.

Agreed. Although how about hammering a few of these so-called "counselors" that pushed those kids to take those classes? Or is everything 100% Roy's fault?

 

[CatsTopPac]

Okay, how do you expect your coaches and tutors to have any idea the classes are not legit?

I mean seriously? Everything you're saying sounds good and dandy but it's not as easy as your make it seem, IMO.

Too easy. If I am head coach, before the season starts, I bring my coaches and the tutors to a meeting. I film it and I have them sign saying they understand. This helps to reinforce the lengths that I am going to ensure compliance. I tell them in front of each other that my assistants and tutors are working with specific athletes that are concerning to me in terms of eligibility. Coaches are already aware of what classes the students are taking and their grades both in college and in hs. They know where these players are academically.

As a tutor, I tell them that it is their responsibility (when asked by coaches who are doing periodic checks with tutors about how the semester is going for the players in question) to truthfully answer, because the whole reason for tutors and coaches tracking player academics is to be compliant. Everything falls if the tutors and coaches are not paying attention and having integrity.

If I'm an assistant and I'm looking over courses and grades, I ask (every couple weeks) the tutors how these specific players are doing. If I am noticing great grades by weak students, then I ask the tutor about it. Obviously, there would be questions if students can't read above a jr high level, and yet they are writing papers and getting As. This is the opportunity for the tutors (having signed the form of accountability and integrity) to explain that a student is having far more trouble than the grades show. THis would prompt an internal investigation showing the violations. It's reported the very same semester. It's not anything more than the tutors making observations during regular hours with the players. If the tutors are witholding anything, they know the consequences of the form they signed.


At that point, when the NCAA does their investigation, if it was caught early, it's obviously due to the diligence of the coaching staff and the program is free from punishment. If the tutor lies, the coaches can still put two and two together, although it would take a couple semesters to compare grades to raise the red flag. If it is discovered before the coach can find out, then at least the efforts made clearly show a culture of compliance. Furthermore, there is no way, with those efforts, that it would go on for years without the coaches realizing that players with weak academic histories all taking the same major and excelling, would be legit.

The tutors are the first line of defense, and the assistants are the second. Regardless, all of that is in place to make sure that the players are systematically compliant. If the player individually cheats and it doesn't happen with the possibility of tutors or coaches knowing, then it is not the fault of the program.

Bottom line is that if the program is actively trying to be compliant, not just checking the box, but actually valuing the academic integrity, then this doesn't happen on such a large scale. Attempts to violate are either recognized and addressed early (resulting, again, in individual punishment), or it comes out later, and because is still an individual punishment because if everything the staff has in place to be compliant.

There is no way, that if a staff is even halfway concerned with academic compliance, that fake classes and systemic cheating, imaginary papers, etc., would go on for so long. Finally, with all of that in place, there is no way that a coach just tweeks the type of class to be taken without also calling for an investigation and reporting it.

 

[uncfan103]

There were 54 basketball player enrollments in AFAM independent studies during Dean Smith's 36 years, 17 during Bill Guthridge's three years, 42 during Matt Doherty's three years, and 167 in Williams' 11 years.

Bang up job of stopping it.

I haven't studied this. I found where it was stopped after a few years, so I guess there are conflicting reports. My guess for the large number is because he had more players during his tenure and AFAM probably wasn't as big during Dean Smith and Bill Guthridge's career. Or athletes then cared about their degrees and now athletes care about taking easy classes to stay eligible. Still, it's not an athletic issue as much as it is an academic problem within the university.

 

[uncfan103]

Too easy. If I am head coach, before the season starts, I bring my coaches and the tutors to a meeting. I film it and I have them sign saying they understand. This helps to reinforce the lengths that I am going to ensure compliance. I tell them in front of each other that my assistants and tutors are working with specific athletes that are concerning to me in terms of eligibility. Coaches are already aware of what classes the students are taking and their grades both in college and in hs. They know where these players are academically.

As a tutor, I tell them that it is their responsibility (when asked by coaches who are doing periodic checks with tutors about how the semester is going for the players in question) to truthfully answer, because the whole reason for tutors and coaches tracking player academics is to be compliant. Everything falls if the tutors and coaches are not paying attention and having integrity.

If I'm an assistant and I'm looking over courses and grades, I ask (every couple weeks) the tutors how these specific players are doing. If I am noticing great grades by weak students, then I ask the tutor about it. Obviously, there would be questions if students can't read above a jr high level, and yet they are writing papers and getting As. This is the opportunity for the tutors (having signed the form of accountability and integrity) to explain that a student is having far more trouble than the grades show. THis would prompt an internal investigation showing the violations. It's reported the very same semester. It's not anything more than the tutors making observations during regular hours with the players. If the tutors are witholding anything, they know the consequences of the form they signed.


At that point, when the NCAA does their investigation, if it was caught early, it's obviously due to the diligence of the coaching staff and the program is free from punishment. If the tutor lies, the coaches can still put two and two together, although it would take a couple semesters to compare grades to raise the red flag. If it is discovered before the coach can find out, then at least the efforts made clearly show a culture of compliance. Furthermore, there is no way, with those efforts, that it would go on for years without the coaches realizing that players with weak academic histories all taking the same major and excelling, would be legit.

The tutors are the first line of defense, and the assistants are the second. Regardless, all of that is in place to make sure that the players are systematically compliant. If the player individually cheats and it doesn't happen with the possibility of tutors or coaches knowing, then it is not the fault of the program.

Bottom line is that if the program is actively trying to be compliant, not just checking the box, but actually valuing the academic integrity, then this doesn't happen on such a large scale. Attempts to violate are either recognized and addressed early (resulting, again, in individual punishment), or it comes out later, and because is still an individual punishment because if everything the staff has in place to be compliant.

There is no way, that if a staff is even halfway concerned with academic compliance, that fake classes and systemic cheating, imaginary papers, etc., would go on for so long. Finally, with all of that in place, there is no way that a coach just tweeks the type of class to be taken without also calling for an investigation and reporting it.

Sounds great!

 

[CatsTopPac]

Athletes were in classes when he got hired in 2003 and then no longer in the classes after a few years. He still hasn't been on record saying there was something he knew wrong with the classes. He just had took his athletes out of the classes. He might not have thought they were fishy, he may have known they were shams, or he could've just wanted athletes in lecture courses. But still, it stopped. And, in my opinion, regardless of why it stopped it's commendable. There are majors at every university that are for athletes, and those coaches don't take their athletes out of them.

Two very simple questions blow this argument apart:

1) absolutely no reason to tell players not to take a class if there is nothing wrong with the class, right?

2)Therefore, if we can establish that something must have been wrong enough to make sure players stop taking those courses, why wouldn't he report the problems that made him tell players to stop taking those courses.

At the end of the day, he knew those classes were wrong. His problem is that he didn't report it, and that he didn't catch it earlier.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Agreed. Although how about hammering a few of these so-called "counselors" that pushed those kids to take those classes? Or is everything 100% Roy's fault?

I don't think it's all Roy's fault by a long shot. I think the academic administration bears a lot of responsibility that went on. Probably the bulk of it in the case of UNC.

But I'm just not buying any of this "I didn't know" bullshit. He is either lying, or recklessly negligent in his duties. Take your pick.

 

[Wamu]

I don't think it's all Roy's fault by a long shot. I think the academic administration bears a lot of responsibility that went on. Probably the bulk of it in the case of UNC.

But I'm just not buying any of this "I didn't know" bullshit. He is either lying, or recklessly negligent in his duties. Take your pick.

I totally agree w/ you, Roy had to know what was going on. And I'm a Tar Heel fan pretty much from birth, my father (and then my brother) both graduated from Carolina.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Agreed. Although how about hammering a few of these so-called "counselors" that pushed those kids to take those classes? Or is everything 100% Roy's fault?

Obviously the counselors, professors, tutors, and coaches should all roll. Everyone who knew or contributed. Absolutely. My focus though is that the others don't have a 7 figure salary to do things the right way, and then play the victim that they didn't know, just to save their asses.

But yes, short answer is that all of them are accountable.

 

[uncfan103]

Wainstein Report said that basketball players were enrolled in large numbers in the independent study courses until the spring of 2008 when it slowed significantly.

Also, a possible reason for the AFAM classes lowering in number is because so many of them were majoring in it and he said to make sure they weren't being steered there. Is it illogical to think that he just didn't think it would look good having everyone on the team with the same major? I know it looks bad at duke when everyone has the same major and the student body does not have an interest in the major. Major he just felt like they were smart enough to major in other things, instead of easy classes.