Choo On This

[NWinAZ]

Rangers get him for 7/$130M with 1st year less money so they can get more players for '14. M's get..........further behind.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Rangers get him for 7/$130M with 1st year less money so they can get more players for '14. M's get..........further behind.

Unfortunately I think the Rangers are having a great offseason. I think trading for Prince Fielder was a great idea and now they have not only replaced Nelson Cruz but upgraded from him.

Meanwhile the Mariners sit back $40m+ behind in payroll from the Rangers and Angels, even after signing Cano.

 

[Thisnamewasntaken]

I'm a Rangers fan and I think long term this is horrible!

 

[7Samurai13]

So Choo turns down a 7 year 140mill deal with the yankees for a $10 million less deal?

 

[cezero]

So Choo turns down a 7 year 140mill deal with the yankees for a $10 million less deal?

he'll come out on top moneywise, too.

no state tax in TX.

 

[Mariners_44]

I find the reactions to this deal hilarious. Had the M's signed him to this deal it would have been an outrage, but since we didn't we are behind. This is an overpay IMO, and if we can now land Cruz at a discount I will be happy; though most don't want him.

 

[dude82]

I find the reactions to this deal hilarious. Had the M's signed him to this deal it would have been an outrage, but since we didn't we are behind. This is an overpay IMO, and if we can now land Cruz at a discount I will be happy; though most don't want him.

That's exactly what I was thinking. It was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. The Mariners have reached a point where they're gonna catch heat no matter what they do (or don't do). If they sign Choo to this type of deal, it's another big overpay and one that would use up whatever money they supposedly have left in their budget on one guy when it could have gone to multiple players that would cover multiple needs. Now that he's signed with Texas, he's just another missed opportunity for the Mariners that someone else in the division took advantage of. One way or the other, the Mariners will have "screwed up".

 

[NWinAZ]

I find the reactions to this deal hilarious. Had the M's signed him to this deal it would have been an outrage, but since we didn't we are behind. This is an overpay IMO, and if we can now land Cruz at a discount I will be happy; though most don't want him.

Cano is an overpay. Choo is a $100M less overpay. The money factor is senseless in judging the player. Would Choo have made us better? Of course he would have. Does a player like Choo cost you a fortune? Of course he does. Is Fielder an overpay? Of course he is, but I would much rather have him in my lineup than in my divisional rivals. The simple fact is that we are $45M below the Rangers payroll at this point. So we need to either spend that difference to try and catch up with their talent base or we need to really wonder why we would spend far below them yet have 2 guys making up half our payroll. I just hate judging players by the end salary when you know it cost big money to compete.

I know people point to Cardinals as great evaluators, and they are, but they still had a $116M+ payroll last year. Rays are another team people point to showing how you build on the cheap. They are great at what they do, but we barely develop 1 player a decade and using their method we would need to play about 10 a year of those developed prospects. They also turn developed talent into more young talent meaning if we ran the team like they do Felix would have been traded two years ago. Do you realize Rays have not had a guy make $11+M in a year throughout the 2000's? So M's, pick a style and go for it. Just don't try and play both ends of building through draft and spending a ton of money on one guy. That only works if those prospects play a big role which outside of Seager and Felix they have not.

 

[dude82]

Cano is an overpay. Choo is a $100M less overpay. The money factor is senseless in judging the player. Would Choo have made us better? Of course he would have. Does a player like Choo cost you a fortune? Of course he does. Is Fielder an overpay? Of course he is, but I would much rather have him in my lineup than in my divisional rivals. The simple fact is that we are $45M below the Rangers payroll at this point. So we need to either spend that difference to try and catch up with their talent base or we need to really wonder why we would spend far below them yet have 2 guys making up half our payroll. I just hate judging players by the end salary when you know it cost big money to compete.

I know people point to Cardinals as great evaluators, and they are, but they still had a $116M+ payroll last year. Rays are another team people point to showing how you build on the cheap. They are great at what they do, but we barely develop 1 player a decade and using their method we would need to play about 10 a year of those developed prospects. They also turn developed talent into more young talent meaning if we ran the team like they do Felix would have been traded two years ago. Do you realize Rays have not had a guy make $11+M in a year throughout the 2000's? So M's, pick a style and go for it. Just don't try and play both ends of building through draft and spending a ton of money on one guy. That only works if those prospects play a big role which outside of Seager and Felix they have not.

There is a middle ground between spending tons of money and pinching pennies while drafting and developing. Likewise, there's a middle ground between Robinson Cano and Willie Bloomquist on the free agent market and a lot of room on either side of that middle ground to work with. The M's have tried both methods of building a team, been unsuccessful using both in recent years, and haven't found that middle ground yet. If the M's are gonna overpay and bust the budget for a player or players, I want them to do so for guys that they think will be worth the overpay on the field, not guys that they felt they had to overpay to keep them away from Texas or the Angels.

The fact that Choo is a Ranger right now suggests to me that the Mariners weren't so enamored with him or what he would have brought to this team to justify giving him the kind of money that Texas ultimately did. Besides, there's a difference between "winning the off-season" by making splashy moves and making the right moves for your team that happen to also be splashy. I'm less concerned with "winning the off-season" or closing the payroll gap with the Rangers than I am with seeing the Mariners put a better team together than they've had in years and it's possible to do the latter without doing the former.

 

[Baseballnut77]

Last 2 moves for this winter: sign cruz and then trade smoak franklin and maurer to the rays for archer and lee. We would unload smoak to open up 1B for the hart,morrison,montero's of the team and archer would give us a top 3 rotation sort who is affordable and under control for a few years and in lee we would get a defensive whizz of a SS who does project to be able to hit far more than ryan ever could. For now lee could play behind miller and if miller is still a 30 error ss and not hitting enough to justify it then we have a backup plan that is not another 30 error ss like franklin

 

[NWinAZ]

The fact that Choo is a Ranger right now suggests to me that the Mariners weren't so enamored with him or what he would have brought to this team to justify giving him the kind of money that Texas ultimately did. Besides, there's a difference between "winning the off-season" by making splashy moves and making the right moves for your team that happen to also be splashy. I'm less concerned with "winning the off-season" or closing the payroll gap with the Rangers than I am with seeing the Mariners put a better team together than they've had in years and it's possible to do the latter without doing the former.

A few things here:
1- If you are using Mariners management as the judgement of talent, you already lost any debate. They haven't signed a guy in years that has worked out for as good or better than thought.

2- I wouldn't use 'splashy' for Choo when we signed the highest paid guy in Cano. At a $110M less, Choo would be considered the smarter bet especially from a defensive position stand point, a position M's need, compared to Cano who plays at a position we had filled a couple times over so I would call Cano the 'splashy' move if comparing the two moves.

3-This wasn't about closing the payroll gap, it was about adding talent to a position of need. The point about payroll was that we had it to spend if using our divisional teams as comparison which we should because it isn't as if we are developing cheap talent to off set. In fact, it is easily seen that we have the least developed talent at the major league level in our division so actually we should be exceeding their payroll and not matching it until we learn to draft and/or trade for cheap talent or accept 4th or 5th place for years to come.

4- As for 'winning the off-season' mentality goes, I think Boston did that last off-season and something tells me it worked out pretty well for them in the end. Rays also win a lot of off-seasons by making the right trades since they are not big spenders (they have not paid a player more than $11M for a season this century).

To be clear; I am not anti-Cano signing nor am I against not signing Choo. I am against signing one big player to a team 20.5 back of the wildcard and calling it a day. Choo just happened to represent one of the last available hitting upgrades still out there that wouldn't cost us a prospect to get. And I really don't see us getting a lineup changer for Franklin and/or Ackley. You might get an old veteran like Willingham or something of the like, but nobody is going to trade you a legit middle of the order bat for a guy who may be decent in the majors unless they are unloading salary and there aren't a lot of those guys and teams around.

My other fear is they now turn their attention to Cruz who isn't all that good and his agent knows M's need a RH bat so we wouldn't get him for a good deal.

And just a quick comparison:
2013-
Choo 5.2 WAR ($130M)
Cano- 6.0 WAR ($240M)

 

[cezero]

the cano 10 year deal was the move of a desperate team, and is one of the last deals of its kind in mlb in this era of less PED use. even the yankees aren't going to make cano/pujols/arod contracts for offensive players in their 30s anymore.

given the cano contract, if the m's had signed choo for anything more than 5 years, it would have been silly.

also, cruz's options are limited now. not as limited as Morales', but still, he won't have a lot of suitors for 5/$75 like the m's offered him earlier.

 

[NWinAZ]

I wouldn't mind Cruz at 1/$10M or 2/$20M and Morales at 1/$10M with the guarantee of not tendering him next year making him a more likely free agent signing. A win-win for both.

Choo at more than 5 years would be silly, but not as silly as Cano for 10. Either case, we have no choice at this point than to sign guys to silly deals until we right this ship,,,,see what I did there? Mariners, right this ship,,,lol.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I wouldn't mind Cruz at 1/$10M or 2/$20M and Morales at 1/$10M with the guarantee of not tendering him next year making him a more likely free agent signing. A win-win for both.

Choo at more than 5 years would be silly, but not as silly as Cano for 10. Either case, we have no choice at this point than to sign guys to silly deals until we right this ship,,,,see what I did there? Mariners, right this ship,,,lol.

Looking ahead at the free agent class next year the Rangers might not have been stupid to overpay for Choo. It looks pretty bleak.

Here are some of the top outfielders who will hit free agency in 2015. Listed the age they will be in their first year after free agency in parentheses.
Nick Markakis (31)
Brett Gardner (31)
Josh Willingham (36)
Colby Rasmus (28)
Denard Span (31)
Michael Cuddyer (36)
Alex Rios (34)

Really nothing too impressive on the market. If you take a look at the MLBTR list, you see a ton of average players but nothing eye popping.

2015 MLB Free Agents: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

 

[NWinAZ]

Ya, I looked at it a couple months back and that is why I wanted them to go for it this year. I really wanted Napoli for 1B, Hart for DH, then either Choo or Ellsbury for OF. Then go to work on #2 SP, a setup man, and a closer. I liked Jimenez, Crain/Axford, and Wilson/Perez leaving enough money for maybe a Hughes/Josh Johnson type SP.

You could then deal some prospects for a LF type. That's just me though.

 

[cezero]

If we signed Choo to this deal, that would mean the M's would be committing about $70 million of payroll per year to 3 players (Felix/Cano/Choo) through 2019.

With this front office and indifferent ownership, that is fucking scary.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[seahawksfan234]

If we signed Choo to this deal, that would mean the M's would be committing about $70 million of payroll per year to 3 players (Felix/Cano/Choo) through 2019.

With this front office and indifferent ownership, that is fucking scary.

That's all I'm saying.

It is the Mariners we are talking about.

 

[fordman84]

Cano is an overpay. Choo is a $100M less overpay. The money factor is senseless in judging the player. Would Choo have made us better? Of course he would have. Does a player like Choo cost you a fortune? Of course he does. Is Fielder an overpay? Of course he is, but I would much rather have him in my lineup than in my divisional rivals. The simple fact is that we are $45M below the Rangers payroll at this point. So we need to either spend that difference to try and catch up with their talent base or we need to really wonder why we would spend far below them yet have 2 guys making up half our payroll. I just hate judging players by the end salary when you know it cost big money to compete.

I know people point to Cardinals as great evaluators, and they are, but they still had a $116M+ payroll last year. Rays are another team people point to showing how you build on the cheap. They are great at what they do, but we barely develop 1 player a decade and using their method we would need to play about 10 a year of those developed prospects. They also turn developed talent into more young talent meaning if we ran the team like they do Felix would have been traded two years ago. Do you realize Rays have not had a guy make $11+M in a year throughout the 2000's? So M's, pick a style and go for it. Just don't try and play both ends of building through draft and spending a ton of money on one guy. That only works if those prospects play a big role which outside of Seager and Felix they have not.

Thing about the Rays is that they were drafting in the top few spots every year for a decade it seems like. Easy to stock a system when you have the #1 pick every year.

 

[NWinAZ]

If we signed Choo to this deal, that would mean the M's would be committing about $70 million of payroll per year to 3 players (Felix/Cano/Choo) through 2019.

With this front office and indifferent ownership, that is fucking scary.

That's all I'm saying.

True, but at least we would have 3 legit players under contract compared to the two we have now. I mean why are we worried about the future when the past and present have stunk for so long? I am not worried about gambling a future we aren't even guaranteed to have (success wise).

 

[NWinAZ]

Thing about the Rays is that they were drafting in the top few spots every year for a decade it seems like. Easy to stock a system when you have the #1 pick every year.

They didn't always have the #1 pick every year, but with that said we haven't been that bad regarding picks this last few years. We just didn't do anything with them.