POLL Better Michigan head football coach

[ericd7633]

Tell me how they were going to win the conference scoring 7 points against Ohio State.

They played bad against OSU. Taking all games into account they did. That'd be like me saying OSU wasn't good enough defensively to win the conference because they had a bad game against Wisconsin. OSU #1 in efficiency, #5 in scoring defense that year.

 

[Across The Field]

They played bad against OSU. Taking all games into account they did. That'd be like me saying OSU wasn't good enough defensively to win the conference because they had a bad game against Wisconsin. OSU #1 in efficiency, #5 in scoring defense that year.

He averaged something like 8 points a game in 3 games against OSU. He was averaging in the teens in points against MSU. With that super awesome offense of his in 2010, they scored 17 against Michigan State and 7 against Ohio State. They weren't winning the conference with that offense, and neither is any other team. I notice you can't seem to give a reason why no other B1G coaches try to run it.

RR's offense is basically dead. There are elements still used, but overall it's pretty much gone. Elite teams don't run it because there are limitations and it can be schemed against. Lower-tier teams may run it because they can't get high-level QBs, but there's a reason you don't see the elite schools using it.

 

[ericd7633]

He averaged something like 8 points a game in 3 games against OSU. He was averaging in the teens in points against MSU. With that super awesome offense of his in 2010, they scored 17 against Michigan State and 7 against Ohio State. They weren't winning the conference with that offense, and neither is any other team. I notice you can't seem to give a reason why no other B1G coaches try to run it.

RR's offense is basically dead. There are elements still used, but overall it's pretty much gone. Elite teams don't run it because there are limitations and it can be schemed against. Lower-tier teams may run it because they can't get high-level QBs, but there's a reason you don't see the elite schools using it.

They played bad those games. Over the course of 12 games it was good enough to win it. Like I said before, shame he didn't get a chance with pretty much everyone coming back the following year.

RR ran a spread offense. More geared towards a run heavy attack. OSU, PSU and Michigan run a variation of it. Not like everyone in the B1G is playing Wisconsin style football. If anything I'd say OSU in 2014 closely mirrored the offense. I'd say OU ran it pretty similar last year as well.

 

[Wamu]

@Shanemansj13 @dtgold88 @Across The Field

 

[Across The Field]

They played bad those games. Over the course of 12 games it was good enough to win it. Like I said before, shame he didn't get a chance with pretty much everyone coming back the following year.

RR ran a spread offense. More geared towards a run heavy attack. OSU, PSU and Michigan run a variation of it. Not like everyone in the B1G is playing Wisconsin style football. If anything I'd say OSU in 2014 closely mirrored the offense. I'd say OU ran it pretty similar last year as well.

It's not a coincidence they played badly in those games. Over the course of 12 games, it was good enough to win some games, but definitely not all. Again, still wondering why nobody else in the B1G is running that type of offense.

There are many types of spread offenses. RR ran a run heavy spread where his QB oftentimes led the team in rushing. That's not at all what OSU, PSU, or currently michigan run. His offenses were dramatically different. 2014 OSU wasn't even remotely close to being a RR style offense other than we had a QB who could run when he needed to. We also aired the ball out, though. The only OSU offense under Urban that resembled a RR offense was the 2012 team, and that's because Braxton was a better runner than thrower. I doubt OSU would even recruit him as a QB anymore. There's a reason Urban moved him to WR.

 

[ericd7633]

It's not a coincidence they played badly in those games. Over the course of 12 games, it was good enough to win some games, but definitely not all. Again, still wondering why nobody else in the B1G is running that type of offense.

There are many types of spread offenses. RR ran a run heavy spread where his QB oftentimes led the team in rushing. That's not at all what OSU, PSU, or currently michigan run. His offenses were dramatically different. 2014 OSU wasn't even remotely close to being a RR style offense other than we had a QB who could run when he needed to. We also aired the ball out, though. The only OSU offense under Urban that resembled a RR offense was the 2012 team, and that's because Braxton was a better runner than thrower. I doubt OSU would even recruit him as a QB anymore. There's a reason Urban moved him to WR.

MSU wasn't even a great defense that year. I actually do think it's a coincidence they played poorly against MSU. Because they avg 36 ppg against Illinois and ND who were better defensively. Every unit is going to have a bad game or two. Bama 2016 had the best defensive efficiency metric in the last decade and they even gave up games of 43, 35 and 31.

Only twice under RR at WVU and Michigan was his QB the leading rusher. And I know in his years at AZ that was also the case, minus the year with Tate. OSU ran the ball 63 percent of the time in 2014 and WVU ran the ball 69 percent of the time in 2007. But his offenses at AZ were much different as far as run/throw ratio.

 

[Across The Field]

MSU wasn't even a great defense that year. I actually do think it's a coincidence they played poorly against MSU. Because they avg 36 ppg against Illinois and ND who were better defensively. Every unit is going to have a bad game or two. Bama 2016 had the best defensive efficiency metric in the last decade and they even gave up games of 43, 35 and 31.

Only twice under RR at WVU and Michigan was his QB the leading rusher. And I know in his years at AZ that was also the case, minus the year with Tate. OSU ran the ball 63 percent of the time in 2014 and WVU ran the ball 69 percent of the time in 2007. But his offenses at AZ were much different as far as run/throw ratio.

My point is, he never played great against MSU, because they had a great defensive coach who could limit his offense. So did OSU, but obviously OSU is usually lining up better talent than MSU.

It actually wasn't only twice at WVU and michigan. It happened at WVU in 2004 and 2007, and it happened at michigan in 2010. That's also not including 2009 at michigan when Tate Forcier led the team in carries. The difference between OSU and any offense RR has had is that damn near every year, even with a mobile QB, the OSU passing attack has been awesome, as it was when Urban was at Florida, Utah, and BG. With RR, that was never the case at WVU or michigan. It was at Arizona several years, but again, he's not facing the level of defense he was in the B1G.

At any rate, in his 3 years at michigan, he never showed that he had an offense that could win the B1G. In 6 games against OSU and MSU, he scored more than 20 points one time, when he scored 21 in 2008 against MSU. You try and say if he had more time there he could've made it work, but ironically enough, he scored fewer points against both teams in 2010 when he had his supposed "best offense" than he did in the other years. They had figured him out and they shut him down.

 

[ericd7633]

My point is, he never played great against MSU, because they had a great defensive coach who could limit his offense. So did OSU, but obviously OSU is usually lining up better talent than MSU.

It actually wasn't only twice at WVU and michigan. It happened at WVU in 2004 and 2007, and it happened at michigan in 2010. That's also not including 2009 at michigan when Tate Forcier led the team in carries. The difference between OSU and any offense RR has had is that damn near every year, even with a mobile QB, the OSU passing attack has been awesome, as it was when Urban was at Florida, Utah, and BG. With RR, that was never the case at WVU or michigan. It was at Arizona several years, but again, he's not facing the level of defense he was in the B1G.

At any rate, in his 3 years at michigan, he never showed that he had an offense that could win the B1G. In 6 games against OSU and MSU, he scored more than 20 points one time, when he scored 21 in 2008 against MSU. You try and say if he had more time there he could've made it work, but ironically enough, he scored fewer points against both teams in 2010 when he had his supposed "best offense" than he did in the other years. They had figured him out and they shut him down.

In 2004 Kay Jay Harris was WVU's leading rusher and he was not a QB. It only happened twice, until Tate towards the end.

And your theory about B1G offenses being better than P12 isn't exactly true. In 2012 when RR had his most balanced attack the P12 defenses were better, on average, according to efficiency, than every year he was in the B1G. I didn't include the numbers for AZ and Michigan since he can't play his own defense.

His offense was definitely good enough to win the conference. Did they have bad games, yeah, but every unit does. Hell Bama's offense the year before was slightly worse offensively and they won the national championship.

 

[olympicoscar]

Say what you want about Harbaugh, but he's at least returned Michigan to respectability.

 

[ralphiewvu]

I miss 2007 WVU offense.......

 

[Thiefery]

I never understood the fascination with Rich Rod. He did well at WVU, but as we see today, many coaches from G5 (sorry Big East) do well then don't once they get the step up. He underwhelmed at AZ as well. People say it's because of the lack of talent he could pull in.. however they point to his WVU tenure as a witch along the trail. It's an excuse, he was at Arizona, a few hours drive to southern CA... and he still didn't get it done. Not like UA wants title aspirations, just a challenger for the south division is all.

As much as Harbaugh gets grief (deservingly so with his OC hires) he has them winning double digit games and his only real hurdle is tosu (and finding a QB). As a Texas fan, I'd rather have Harbaugh and his offensive deficiencies over Hoke and Rod

 

[ericd7633]

I never understood the fascination with Rich Rod. He did well at WVU, but as we see today, many coaches from G5 (sorry Big East) do well then don't once they get the step up. He underwhelmed at AZ as well. People say it's because of the lack of talent he could pull in.. however they point to his WVU tenure as a witch along the trail. It's an excuse, he was at Arizona, a few hours drive to southern CA... and he still didn't get it done. Not like UA wants title aspirations, just a challenger for the south division is all.

As much as Harbaugh gets grief (deservingly so with his OC hires) he has them winning double digit games and his only real hurdle is tosu (and finding a QB). As a Texas fan, I'd rather have Harbaugh and his offensive deficiencies over Hoke and Rod

From 2000 to 2011 AZ won 42% of their games.
With RR they won 55% of their games.
With Sumlin they won 37% of their games.

RR won a division title in 2014 and had them in a NY6 bowl(their first in 20 years).

I'm not sure how anyone can say he underwhelmed at AZ given what he walked into and what they are historically.

 

[Across The Field]

In 2004 Kay Jay Harris was WVU's leading rusher and he was not a QB. It only happened twice, until Tate towards the end.

And your theory about B1G offenses being better than P12 isn't exactly true. In 2012 when RR had his most balanced attack the P12 defenses were better, on average, according to efficiency, than every year he was in the B1G. I didn't include the numbers for AZ and Michigan since he can't play his own defense.

His offense was definitely good enough to win the conference. Did they have bad games, yeah, but every unit does. Hell Bama's offense the year before was slightly worse offensively and they won the national championship.

In 2004, WVU's leading rusher was their QB:


So now efficiency does count? Because didn't we have an argument earlier where I brought up both efficiency and Sagarin and somehow I was wrong? Better efficiency doesn't mean a better defense. San Diego State had a better efficiency last year than Penn State but you'd be an idiot to say they were actually a better defense.

His offense wasn't good enough to win the conference. It's just a fact. Averaging 8 points a game against OSU and 19 points a game against MSU isn't going to win the conference. Just isn't gonna happen.

 

[ericd7633]

In 2004, WVU's leading rusher was their QB:
View attachment 248683

So now efficiency does count? Because didn't we have an argument earlier where I brought up both efficiency and Sagarin and somehow I was wrong? Better efficiency doesn't mean a better defense. San Diego State had a better efficiency last year than Penn State but you'd be an idiot to say they were actually a better defense.

His offense wasn't good enough to win the conference. It's just a fact. Averaging 8 points a game against OSU and 19 points a game against MSU isn't going to win the conference. Just isn't gonna happen.

Marshall was not the leasing rusher:

2004 West Virginia Mountaineers Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Not sure why ESPN doesn't reference Harris at all, that's weird.

Sagarin and efficiency don't mean as much if a team had played 5 games without their starting QB and the drop-off between him and the backup is that huge. Overall, I'm still going with Sagarin and efficiency metrics, but can understand if you take away the starting QB that won't tell the whole story.

And yeah, overall his offense was. Just had historically bad defenses.

 

[Across The Field]

Marshall was not the leasing rusher:

2004 West Virginia Mountaineers Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Not sure why ESPN doesn't reference Harris at all, that's weird.

Sagarin and efficiency don't mean as much if a team had played 5 games without their starting QB and the drop-off between him and the backup is that huge. Overall, I'm still going with Sagarin and efficiency metrics, but can understand if you take away the starting QB that won't tell the whole story.

And yeah, overall his offense was. Just had historically bad defenses.

They also have Marshall's stats as just completely different altogether. Doesn't make much sense.

Every team has injuries. Every single one of them. If your backups are that awful, then that reflects the overall quality of your team. If Indiana is able to have two solid QBs, then Cal has 0 excuse.

It wasn't though. Never was and never would be. Facts are on my side. 8 ppg and 19 ppg against two of your biggest opponents says it all. Shit, that supposedly awesome 2010 offense was only 3rd best in the conference. He had four blue-chip RBs on his roster over a three year period but couldn't get a running game going other than the QB. That's the problem. That's why it would have never been good enough.

 

[ericd7633]

They also have Marshall's stats as just completely different altogether. Doesn't make much sense.

Every team has injuries. Every single one of them. If your backups are that awful, then that reflects the overall quality of your team. If Indiana is able to have two solid QBs, then Cal has 0 excuse.

It wasn't though. Never was and never would be. Facts are on my side. 8 ppg and 19 ppg against two of your biggest opponents says it all. Shit, that supposedly awesome 2010 offense was only 3rd best in the conference. He had four blue-chip RBs on his roster over a three year period but couldn't get a running game going other than the QB. That's the problem. That's why it would have never been good enough.

Yeah, either way Harris was the leading rusher. So it only happened once at WVU and Michigan.

Yeah IU had better QB play, props to them, I admitted that. Overall, they were slightly more efficient. That was with Cal's backup playing 5 games, and performing pretty awful in most/all.

Yeah it was the 3rd best in the conference. Slightly worse than OSU and Wisconsin, but better than MSU, who all split the conference going 7-1. The one common denominator is that all were significantly better on defense.