Bengals /Ravens realistic premonitions

[BKBroiler9000]

I know this will sound knee-jerk - but I'd fire Lou tonight.

This defense has now been an issue going on a year and 5 games...they are giving up almost 30ppg - and it would be worse if not for the crappy Patriots and lack of offense that game.

Is there anything more Cincinnati than watching an elite talent get wasted during their prime window?

Let this sink in - the Bengals could have a worse record this year than last year - and they missed Burrow for 10 games, and had him injured in another 3-4. They have an easier schedule this year, and a healthy Burrow - and could end up with 10+ losses because this defense couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag.

I like Lou - and when he's been on and had guys - he's done well, but these guys are his guys. He picked them. They can't get it done, and he can't/won't change how he calls a defense...something has to give. If the Bengals truly want to shake up the feeling of 1-4 and look to shock this defense into actually doing something - they need to make a move here at DC...I don't know who you'd look to at this point - but at this point anyone on this board could call a game and it literally would not be much worse.

I would’ve fired Lou after the Washington game. NFL play callers do not respect this defense. And literally nothing has changed from then to today. Other than a couple young rotational guys coming back. The Panthers shredded them last week. The Ravens shredded them today.

Lou needs to retire at this point. He was good when he had Bates and Reader. He has sucked without them. We can do better.

 

[cincygrad]

I know this will sound knee-jerk - but I'd fire Lou tonight.

This defense has now been an issue going on a year and 5 games...they are giving up almost 30ppg - and it would be worse if not for the crappy Patriots and lack of offense that game.

Is there anything more Cincinnati than watching an elite talent get wasted during their prime window?

Let this sink in - the Bengals could have a worse record this year than last year - and they missed Burrow for 10 games, and had him injured in another 3-4. They have an easier schedule this year, and a healthy Burrow - and could end up with 10+ losses because this defense couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag.

I like Lou - and when he's been on and had guys - he's done well, but these guys are his guys. He picked them. They can't get it done, and he can't/won't change how he calls a defense...something has to give. If the Bengals truly want to shake up the feeling of 1-4 and look to shock this defense into actually doing something - they need to make a move here at DC...I don't know who you'd look to at this point - but at this point anyone on this board could call a game and it literally would not be much worse.

Honestly, I thought Lou's plan today was okay. We did a decent job against the run and even forced two punts in the first half. What killed us is when the Ravens went up tempo and let Lamar cook. Lamar had an MVP type of game..... But rather than sit back in those soft zones like he did against Jayden Daniels, Lou went man-on-man and blitzed the entire second half. We didn't get Lamar to the ground and our safeties were liabilities in coverage. I'm just not sure how he could have called it differently. I would have been pissed had he played back in the zone and we got beat, but he tried aggression and it didn't work.

 

[DanBengalfan]

Honestly, I thought Lou's plan today was okay. We did a decent job against the run and even forced two punts in the first half. What killed us is when the Ravens went up tempo and let Lamar cook. Lamar had an MVP type of game..... But rather than sit back in those soft zones like he did against Jayden Daniels, Lou went man-on-man and blitzed the entire second half. We didn't get Lamar to the ground and our safeties were liabilities in coverage. I'm just not sure how he could have called it differently. I would have been pissed had he played back in the zone and we got beat, but he tried aggression and it didn't work.

yea. got to hand it to the ravens, we got our defensive line healed up a bit and they still beat us. they didn't even need the refs help like KC. last week they destroyed buffalo. so they might be the team to beat this year.

 

[cincygrad]

This is such an odd season. It's hard to imagine an offense that is producing the types of regular stats and advanced stats could belong to a team that is 1-4. Of course, they are likely 2 or 3 plays from being 3-2 or even 4-1 but they simply can't close. People will start pointing the finger at Burrow saying that he falls apart late in the game. And honestly, his career is now full of late game missed chances. But, it's hard to know how he could have done things differently yesterday. When they had the ball late in Ravens territory, they were about 1 more first down from sealing the game (or at least making the task monumental for the Ravens). Burrow throws a pick..... But, I watched the play about 20 times on replay - That is a throw that Burrow makes all game and it wasn't a bad throw. It was horrible awareness by Chase who didn't seem to feel the corner jumping the route. He needed to get to the spot first and he did not. Then, Burrow gets the ball back with 1:35, but we immediately give up a sack. Maybe Burrow should see that coming, but his pocket was good all day and it collapsed. The second down throw was a good call - Give Tee a chance, but Tee does not win a contested catch. You have to run on 3rd and 17. I have no idea why Taylor called out his QB for not throwing in overtime - Both Taylor and Burrow said the play needed to be checked out of which could mean a lot of things, but I can't understand what run play is designed to beat a 9 person box. They were both clearly scared of a zero blitz.

 

[cincygrad]

As for the bigger picture - This is what the Bengals planned for when extending Burrow. They have given him a competent offensive line, he has weapons even if we lose Tee this year, and the offense has evolved into something that is sustainable week to week. But the other part of that equation was that they were going to build the D through the draft. And they definitely invested the draft capital. After the super bowl they have drafted the following guys within the first three rounds - Dax Hill, Cam Taylor-Britt, Zach Carter, Myles Murphy, DJ Turner, Jordan Battle, Kris Jenkins, and McKinely Jackson. So, they've used high draft picks to invest in premium positions..... But the returns have not been there. It took them until season 3 to realize Hill is a corner and now he is likely out for the year. CTB is a boom or bust type player. Carter will be out of the league soon. Murphy is starting to show promise, Turner has shown some promise but nothing too great, Battle is overrated by our fans, and it's too early to tell with Jenkins and Jackson. Regardless, they needed at least one of these guys to be a star and 2 or 3 of them to be a plus starter. It hasn't happened.

 

[cincygrad]

Out of curiosity I watched the Bengals last three downs before the missed field goal. I think it's pretty disingenuous for Taylor to suggest that he called a pass play that 'wasn't there.' The only time that the play call was clearly changed was on the second down play after the timeout. But the personnel group had the following eligible receivers - Chase, Brown, All, Sample, and Ford. Chase was flanked out right with a corner on him and a very deep safety on that side. So, basically no chance. Erik All was on the other side with a corner ready for coverage. So, unless this was going to be designed as some sort of screen or boot to the tight end, there really wasn't anything there. It's not like he had typical personnel on the field and changed out of a pass play. He basically changed out of one super conservative play to another super conservative play. I changed my mind about how I feel about this - Yesterday, I was more an apologist of Taylor, but I get it now.... He fucked up.... Again.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Honestly, I thought Lou's plan today was okay. We did a decent job against the run and even forced two punts in the first half. What killed us is when the Ravens went up tempo and let Lamar cook. Lamar had an MVP type of game..... But rather than sit back in those soft zones like he did against Jayden Daniels, Lou went man-on-man and blitzed the entire second half. We didn't get Lamar to the ground and our safeties were liabilities in coverage. I'm just not sure how he could have called it differently. I would have been pissed had he played back in the zone and we got beat, but he tried aggression and it didn't work.

My issues stem more than from this game. But focusing on this game - you have 4-5 year vets out of position. You have clear communication issues. Multiple, Multiple WR/TE WIDE OPEN late 3rd and 4th quarters.

If the scheme is that complex - then Lou should have changed it.

Like I said - I realize it seems knee-jerk, but this defense has been an issue for longer than just yesterday, and these 5 games. Last year is starting to look a whole hell of a lot more like the scheme/calling is a bigger issue than the talent. While they still struggle to get to the QB, you see that they rush 5-6- and guys are wide open. They rush 3-4 and guys are wide open. On one TD - Hubbard was back in coverage...to the WIDE side of the field? How does that make any sense? With no help?

I really like Lou - I do think he's a fine DC...but I think time has kind of run out here and a change is likely needed. This offense is putting up elite level performances through 5 weeks (and those numbers include a complete zero in week 1) - and this defense is even worse than the offense is good - which is really saying something.

 

[cincygrad]

My issues stem more than from this game. But focusing on this game - you have 4-5 year vets out of position. You have clear communication issues. Multiple, Multiple WR/TE WIDE OPEN late 3rd and 4th quarters.

If the scheme is that complex - then Lou should have changed it.

Like I said - I realize it seems knee-jerk, but this defense has been an issue for longer than just yesterday, and these 5 games. Last year is starting to look a whole hell of a lot more like the scheme/calling is a bigger issue than the talent. While they still struggle to get to the QB, you see that they rush 5-6- and guys are wide open. They rush 3-4 and guys are wide open. On one TD - Hubbard was back in coverage...to the WIDE side of the field? How does that make any sense? With no help?

I really like Lou - I do think he's a fine DC...but I think time has kind of run out here and a change is likely needed. This offense is putting up elite level performances through 5 weeks (and those numbers include a complete zero in week 1) - and this defense is even worse than the offense is good - which is really saying something.

I agree that the scheme seems to be too complex and I wonder whether the scheme is impacting player development. Think about it for a minute - This D was night and day better with a starting secondary of Eli Apple, Chido, Bates, Bell and Hilton. I can understand that losing Bates was a bigger blow than I wanted to admit, but did it really have to be that big a deal? The entire league is getting rid of safeties and not spending money on the position. Dax Hill is a prime example of mismanagement of assets. How can they watch him in practice every day and not realize that he was a bad fit for free safety? He could have been so much further along in development as an outside corner, where I think he has a chance to be good.

The team brought back Vonn Bell to clean up communication. But, they also created a bigger problem in that Bell can't cover. He's too old. The Ravens figured it out at halftime - They could create one-on-ones with our safeties and their tight ends and our guys couldn't keep up. My fear is that you are looking at the same issue with Jordan Battle. And possibly with Anthony, though I like his aggression toward the ball. At some point this year, I think you need to see what you have with Tysen Anderson an Anthony. Work in Battle to see where he is. They need to do something back there.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I agree that the scheme seems to be too complex and I wonder whether the scheme is impacting player development. Think about it for a minute - This D was night and day better with a starting secondary of Eli Apple, Chido, Bates, Bell and Hilton. I can understand that losing Bates was a bigger blow than I wanted to admit, but did it really have to be that big a deal? The entire league is getting rid of safeties and not spending money on the position. Dax Hill is a prime example of mismanagement of assets. How can they watch him in practice every day and not realize that he was a bad fit for free safety? He could have been so much further along in development as an outside corner, where I think he has a chance to be good.

The team brought back Vonn Bell to clean up communication. But, they also created a bigger problem in that Bell can't cover. He's too old. The Ravens figured it out at halftime - They could create one-on-ones with our safeties and their tight ends and our guys couldn't keep up. My fear is that you are looking at the same issue with Jordan Battle. And possibly with Anthony, though I like his aggression toward the ball. At some point this year, I think you need to see what you have with Tysen Anderson an Anthony. Work in Battle to see where he is. They need to do something back there.

Battle was the highest rated rookie safety last year....

And they sat him down because they signed Bell....

I did love the addition of Bell - but I honestly thought it would be more in the backup/coaching on the field kind of role and Battle would, likely, still be getting a lot of the snaps. Instead, they did a straight swap - and as you mentioned, that can hinder development.

Turner has looked pretty good. Hill actually is playing OK at CB. CTB is now in his own head. He's terrified of getting beat deep, and is not getting toasted underneath. Not sure what the best look for him will be.

In addition to Bell not being great - what has Stone done? He was one of the best INT safety guys last year. Did they not see the scheme and instead brought him over just thinking it would translate to whatever scheme it is that Lou runs? Stone has been quite the disappointment, IMO.

The DL is an abject mess. Forget the injuries for a moment. Hubbard is clearly on his last leg, did have some good moments yesterday, but overall has been a big issue. Murphy was around the QB, but never got to him - which was his MO last year. Teams are just straight holding Trey who get's less love than any DE in the NFL - Change my mind - but will Rankins make a difference upon his return? If guys are not hitting the gaps right, not getting into the lanes, and the LB's are too slow to read-react (mostly Pratt at this point) - what will it matter? Not sure that this is, at this point, a player issue but a scheme issue.

A guy like Lou who has been around long enough should be able to look at what he has and realize that there has to be other avenues to get results. The Bengals have had 4 of the worst Run defense/rushing yards allowed through 5 games since 2019 - 3 of them are under Lou...2 of them are last year and this year.

At some point - you have to start to wonder - is it really the talent, or is the scheme/calling? Because these guys do make plays, but are often looking like they are scrambling at the last moment to get lined up, guys are left wide open, and lanes are not getting filled....to me, it seems like more of a scheme issue at this point than a talent one....

 

[cincygrad]

Battle was the highest rated rookie safety last year....

And they sat him down because they signed Bell....

I did love the addition of Bell - but I honestly thought it would be more in the backup/coaching on the field kind of role and Battle would, likely, still be getting a lot of the snaps. Instead, they did a straight swap - and as you mentioned, that can hinder development.

Turner has looked pretty good. Hill actually is playing OK at CB. CTB is now in his own head. He's terrified of getting beat deep, and is not getting toasted underneath. Not sure what the best look for him will be.

In addition to Bell not being great - what has Stone done? He was one of the best INT safety guys last year. Did they not see the scheme and instead brought him over just thinking it would translate to whatever scheme it is that Lou runs? Stone has been quite the disappointment, IMO.

The DL is an abject mess. Forget the injuries for a moment. Hubbard is clearly on his last leg, did have some good moments yesterday, but overall has been a big issue. Murphy was around the QB, but never got to him - which was his MO last year. Teams are just straight holding Trey who get's less love than any DE in the NFL - Change my mind - but will Rankins make a difference upon his return? If guys are not hitting the gaps right, not getting into the lanes, and the LB's are too slow to read-react (mostly Pratt at this point) - what will it matter? Not sure that this is, at this point, a player issue but a scheme issue.

A guy like Lou who has been around long enough should be able to look at what he has and realize that there has to be other avenues to get results. The Bengals have had 4 of the worst Run defense/rushing yards allowed through 5 games since 2019 - 3 of them are under Lou...2 of them are last year and this year.

At some point - you have to start to wonder - is it really the talent, or is the scheme/calling? Because these guys do make plays, but are often looking like they are scrambling at the last moment to get lined up, guys are left wide open, and lanes are not getting filled....to me, it seems like more of a scheme issue at this point than a talent one....

I know what PFF said about Battle. PFF also anointed William Jackson III as one of the best at his position. It didn't take too long for that correction to arrive. My issue with Battle is that he does not score well athletically - I think eventually he will be exposed just as Vonn Bell is being exposed. Honestly, this is also the case with Geno Stone. Guys like Bell, Battle, and Stone are probably good parts on a D that doesn't need to send extra guys to get to the QB, but if you do, you're screwed. I'm also concerned that the coaches didn't think he was ready for this season. It doesn't make much sense for a guy that gets high marks for character - Makes me think he has limitations physically and he just wasn't making plays in practice during camp. The writers and podcasters never really mentioned his name all summer (aside from that pick against Indy).

Murphy has not flashed as a pass rusher yet, but he plays a solid edge - He stays in position, is physical and I think can be an asset against the run. I also think he will get better as a pass rusher - Look at Hendrickson.... Sometimes it takes a few years. Regardless, I think Murphy's floor is a Sam Hubbard type player and I'm okay with that. We obviously need pass rushers in the next draft.

I thought the run D looked okay yesterday until that last run when they were completely deflated. For the most part, gap control was good and damage was limited. It was pass rush and coverage that undid the Bengals yesterday. And, yes it was probably scheme.

 

[jbuck]

agree with grad here. we have been pumping the D in the draft. Hasn't panned out, Not sure what the answer is. Found a stud in reader. We need to find another one. Found a DE in FA too. Hendrickson. Hilton, also. + we don't really go after LBs in the draft that much. How can 30 teams find better guys than us?

 

[Cincyfan78]

From Paul D. Jr...

The Bengals defense couldn’t even force a third down after halftime until 11:11 in the 4Q. When they did, they stunk.

Baltimore converted 5 of 6 third downs in 4Q and OT.

Yikes.