Andy Dalton can't handle pressure

[augustisback003]

I've always voice that point of view and this article does an excellent job of breaking it down.

A Bengal Under Pressure «

 

[futballiscool]

"There are several good passers just below Dalton who suffer dramatically with pressure in their face, like Peyton Manning (86.8 QBR without pressure, 26.7 QBR under duress) and Drew Brees (80.3 QBR without pressure, 26.5 QBR under duress), but they’re so good when not bothered that they can slip by. Dalton can’t"


That ruins the whole point of the article for me. You can become a transcendent, first ballot HOF player if you struggle under pressure. But you can't be a quality starting QB if you have that flaw?

Dalton has the target on his back and the analysis is completely slanted against him

 

[flamingrey]

"There are several good passers just below Dalton who suffer dramatically with pressure in their face, like Peyton Manning (86.8 QBR without pressure, 26.7 QBR under duress) and Drew Brees (80.3 QBR without pressure, 26.5 QBR under duress), but they’re so good when not bothered that they can slip by. Dalton can’t"


That ruins the whole point of the article for me. You can become a transcendent, first ballot HOF player if you struggle under pressure. But you can't be a quality starting QB if you have that flaw?

Dalton has the target on his back and the analysis is completely slanted against him

You're missing one big piece of it. It's what those QB's are naturally able to do to avoid that duress is part of what makes them so great. Both have had some pretty crappy o-lines in their times, yet have still always been great. And if nothing else, they are outliers, or exceptions, nowhere near the rule. Dalton doesn't fit that category. Not even close.

After 3 years of the same nonsense, any possible argument of a "target on his back" goes out the window. There's no bias, or any other reason not to like his (lack of) abilities. He is what he is, and people see it. It's blatantly obvious to anyone paying attention.

 

[futballiscool]

You're missing one big piece of it. It's what those QB's are naturally able to do to avoid that duress is part of what makes them so great. Both have had some pretty crappy o-lines in their times, yet have still always been great. And if nothing else, they are outliers, or exceptions, nowhere near the rule. Dalton doesn't fit that category. Not even close.

After 3 years of the same nonsense, any possible argument of a "target on his back" goes out the window. There's no bias, or any other reason not to like his (lack of) abilities. He is what he is, and people see it. It's blatantly obvious to anyone paying attention.

And part of what makes Dalton a competent starting QB is that he gets the ball out of his hands as quick as almost anyone in the league.

You can be an alltime great QB who struggles when pressured (Manning, Brees). You can be a middle of the pack QB who struggles when pressured (Dalton). You can be a terrible QB who struggles when pressured (Gabbert).


Every middle of the road QB has major flaws. Devoting an article to a middle of the road QB's flaw is a hit piece

 

[MarkOU]

Why are you down on Andy Dalton? I know he just got a big contract but damn man its not like Cincinnati is known for winning.

There is only one QB in franchise history to lead your team to three straight playoffs...Andy Dalton. Where is the love?

 

[flamingrey]

And part of what makes Dalton a competent starting QB is that he gets the ball out of his hands as quick as almost anyone in the league.

You can be an alltime great QB who struggles when pressured (Manning, Brees). You can be a middle of the pack QB who struggles when pressured (Dalton). You can be a terrible QB who struggles when pressured (Gabbert).


Every middle of the road QB has major flaws. Devoting an article to a middle of the road QB's flaw is a hit piece

Talent vs. System

There probably isn't a QB in history that reads a defense post-snap and goes through his progressions as quickly as Brees. There probably isn't a QB in history that reads a defense pre-snap as well as Manning, and few (e.g. Brees) that go through progressions quicker.

Dalton gets the ball out quickly by design of the system, when he's hitting his first read, not due to natural talent or ability.

Lastly, if Brees or Manning are dropping in QBR under duress, it likely isn't for any of the reasons listed below which are the real underlying issues in the case made by the article.

"Quarterbacks in this class often struggle to diagnose pressure before the snap and do a subpar job of capturing who exactly is coming at them when defenses disguise their blitzers. Even worse, when they do feel even the tiniest bit of pressure heading in their direction, passers like Kolb and Gabbert bail out of the pocket and frantically sprint toward the sideline like ants trying to escape feet."

I'm also not a fan of QBR (better than QB Rating though), but am consoled by the article giving this disclaimer, "I will not pretend QBR is perfect, but for the purposes of what we’re talking about here, it will work fine. You can use adjusted net yards per attempt or passer rating or another white-box statistic and the findings won’t be dramatically different."

If you read the entire article, the article's argument stands even without any of the QBR evidence. The QBR evidence only bolsters it. I thought it was a well written article presenting very credible arguments and evidence (video clips, etc.) for those arguments.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Talent vs. System

There probably isn't a QB in history that reads a defense post-snap and goes through his progressions as quickly as Brees. There probably isn't a QB in history that reads a defense pre-snap as well as Manning, and few (e.g. Brees) that go through progressions quicker.

Dalton gets the ball out quickly by design of the system, when he's hitting his first read, not due to natural talent or ability.

Lastly, if Brees or Manning are dropping in QBR under duress, it likely isn't for any of the reasons listed below which are the real underlying issues in the case made by the article.

"Quarterbacks in this class often struggle to diagnose pressure before the snap and do a subpar job of capturing who exactly is coming at them when defenses disguise their blitzers. Even worse, when they do feel even the tiniest bit of pressure heading in their direction, passers like Kolb and Gabbert bail out of the pocket and frantically sprint toward the sideline like ants trying to escape feet."

I'm also not a fan of QBR (better than QB Rating though), but am consoled by the article giving this disclaimer, "I will not pretend QBR is perfect, but for the purposes of what we’re talking about here, it will work fine. You can use adjusted net yards per attempt or passer rating or another white-box statistic and the findings won’t be dramatically different."

If you read the entire article, the article's argument stands even without any of the QBR evidence. The QBR evidence only bolsters it. I thought it was a well written article presenting very credible arguments and evidence (video clips, etc.) for those arguments.

Dalton has only been playing for 3 years, Brees and Manning are aged vets that has seen almost everything under the sun related to football defenses. Brees wasn't exactly the greatest QB in his first few years either as SD decided to draft a #1 QB to replace him and then let him walk FA, once he was available for FA. Teams don't just let superstars walk like Brees and Manning unless there was some question to their health or play. I know Brees had surgey, and so did Manning, but Indy really had no choice. They had the #1 pick, and Luck was available, the closest thing to Manning they could have probably ever gotten and Manning was up in age. It was in their best interest to make the move when they did. Brees was jettisoned because of questions of his arm strength (funny I never hear that around these parts) and he was under performing even as a 2nd round pick.

Dalton is young, he is learning, he has some time before he gets as comfortable as Manning and Brees. He will probably never be as good as those two guys, but that doesn't mean he couldn't still be an above average QB with talent around him to win a SB.

 

[bengaldoug]

Does anyone remember any instance of a quarterback struggling vs pressure for three or four years and then overcoming that flaw and ascending to top tier? I don't. Not trying to start something, (Crash), just wanting to know if we have any hope that Dalton could do this.

 

[flamingrey]

Brees had an average rookie season, struggled in his 2nd season, and then tore the league up in his 3rd season. But the Chargers had already drafted Rivers after Brees struggles in his 2nd season (you know, the all vaunted sophomore slump).

And Dalton was WAY ahead of the vast majority of QB's in their rookie season. This was well known before he was even drafted. His trajectory is and was never going to be like that of typical QB's. There's just no comparison to him and Brees or Peyton, who again, by the end of their 3rd season were well established.

 

[flamingrey]

Does anyone remember any instance of a quarterback struggling vs pressure for three or four years and then overcoming that flaw and ascending to top tier? I don't. Not trying to start something, (Crash), just wanting to know if we have any hope that Dalton could do this.

No.

 

[kramer1]

No.

Troy Aikman?

 

[cincygrad]

Not to defend Dalton, but...... Brees wasn't much better than Dalton in his early years in SD. He had terrific stats in 2004, but if you look at his attempts (only 400) it's clear he played in a good offense that protected him. His last year (2005) was not much different from Dalton's. He had too many picks, had a tiny difference in rating over Dalton, averaged less yards per attempt and fewer touchdowns and yards. Probably the reason why he was expendable...... At that point the Chargers decided that the guy was a good system qb but not as good as a top talent - And he was hurt.

 

[cincygrad]

Troy Aikman?

Steve Young?

 

[bengaldoug]

Troy Aikman?

Aikman's early woes were due to being with a young and initially poor team. As the team got better, Aikman came on. His was a natural progression. As his line got better he got better. Dalton has been well protected from the beginning. That's the difference.

 

[futballiscool]

Talent vs. System

There probably isn't a QB in history that reads a defense post-snap and goes through his progressions as quickly as Brees. There probably isn't a QB in history that reads a defense pre-snap as well as Manning, and few (e.g. Brees) that go through progressions quicker.

Dalton gets the ball out quickly by design of the system, when he's hitting his first read, not due to natural talent or ability.

Lastly, if Brees or Manning are dropping in QBR under duress, it likely isn't for any of the reasons listed below which are the real underlying issues in the case made by the article.

"Quarterbacks in this class often struggle to diagnose pressure before the snap and do a subpar job of capturing who exactly is coming at them when defenses disguise their blitzers. Even worse, when they do feel even the tiniest bit of pressure heading in their direction, passers like Kolb and Gabbert bail out of the pocket and frantically sprint toward the sideline like ants trying to escape feet."

I'm also not a fan of QBR (better than QB Rating though), but am consoled by the article giving this disclaimer, "I will not pretend QBR is perfect, but for the purposes of what we’re talking about here, it will work fine. You can use adjusted net yards per attempt or passer rating or another white-box statistic and the findings won’t be dramatically different."

If you read the entire article, the article's argument stands even without any of the QBR evidence. The QBR evidence only bolsters it. I thought it was a well written article presenting very credible arguments and evidence (video clips, etc.) for those arguments.

I read the entire article, and yes, it's filled with other similar qualifiers.. QBR isn't perfect, but I'm using it to make my point.. My formula to prove Dalton is poor under pressure makes Manning and Brees look bad but they're great anyway so it doesn't matter


Dalton's not strong or athletic in the pocket so he's going to struggle when there's someone hitting him on every play. If that's his point I agree. Attributing the offense's success to everything but Dalton then blaming him for an interception when an untouched blitzing LBer is in his face.. the article was written with an agenda

 

[bengaldoug]

Steve Young?

Sat behind Joe Cool for years, so not a fair comparison.......

 

[DanBengalfan]

Steve Young played in the USFL babah

 

[flamingrey]

I read the entire article, and yes, it's filled with other similar qualifiers.. QBR isn't perfect, but I'm using it to make my point.. My formula to prove Dalton is poor under pressure makes Manning and Brees look bad but they're great anyway so it doesn't matter


Dalton's not strong or athletic in the pocket so he's going to struggle when there's someone hitting him on every play. If that's his point I agree. Attributing the offense's success to everything but Dalton then blaming him for an interception when an untouched blitzing LBer is in his face.. the article was written with an agenda

No kidding. The article was written to point out that despite Dalton's "success", he's okay at best. He benefits from a great supporting cast on offense and defense.

Who should the interception be blamed on? The article made the point that Dalton got flustered, saw an orange jersey, and chucked the ball. The correct play was for Dalton to eat the sack. It was his fault he threw the interception.

After 3 years of Dalton blowing chunks against every single good defense he's faced, are we still going to try to argue that the offense's success has anything to do with his talent or abilities?

I understand if you disagree with the premise of the article, but he made nothing short of a compelling argument.

 

[flamingrey]

Not to defend Dalton, but...... Brees wasn't much better than Dalton in his early years in SD. He had terrific stats in 2004, but if you look at his attempts (only 400) it's clear he played in a good offense that protected him. His last year (2005) was not much different from Dalton's. He had too many picks, had a tiny difference in rating over Dalton, averaged less yards per attempt and fewer touchdowns and yards. Probably the reason why he was expendable...... At that point the Chargers decided that the guy was a good system qb but not as good as a top talent - And he was hurt.

65% completion, 24 TD's, 15 INT. Not great, but well above average in the NFL of a decade ago. In 2005, 24 TD's was tied for the 4th best in the league. Heck, Peyton Manning had 28 and Brady 26. Most of the other major statistical categories, he's in the top 10. There's no comparison between their stats 10 years apart.

Dalton in a pass happy league is statistically still an average QB.

The Chargers already had Rivers in the wings, nonetheless, offered Brees a large contract (but with incentives due to injury to his throwing shoulder). The Saints offered a better contract. It was simply a risk the Chargers didn't want to talk already with another young promising QB waiting in the wings. Talent wasn't the issue.

 

[futballiscool]

No kidding. The article was written to point out that despite Dalton's "success", he's okay at best. He benefits from a great supporting cast on offense and defense.

Who should the interception be blamed on? The article made the point that Dalton got flustered, saw an orange jersey, and chucked the ball. The correct play was for Dalton to eat the sack. It was his fault he threw the interception.

After 3 years of Dalton blowing chunks against every single good defense he's faced, are we still going to try to argue that the offense's success has anything to do with his talent or abilities?

I understand if you disagree with the premise of the article, but he made nothing short of a compelling argument.

Eating the sack is right move. But it's 3rd down, it's the end of the 3rd quarter, his team is losing in the playoffs. The Chargers offense has been running the ball down the Bengals throat and eating up the clock. He had an unblocked blitzer in his face before the play could develop.

That's a time when I have no problem understanding why a young QB presses to make a play and makes a mistake instead.