AFC West Roundup

[cdumler7]

Just what I was hoping to hear from you. So.....If you can rattle a guy like Brady by executing that philosophy ( which both of us and 99% of the rest of " knowledgeable " football fans, agree to, how do you justify your " expert " critique of Trevors performance last year when as basically a rookie, he endured those same circumstances on a regular basis all season. I remember after wk 3 I believe when Trevor threw for 300 + yds, 4 ads and 0 ints including a PERFECT in stride beautiful 55 yrd bomb to DT, you said, and this is just the gist of your comment after game...." I guess I misjudged Simian, bla,bla,etc. Then, after wk 6 when CJ went down after rushing for the first and last 100 or more yd game by a Denver rb, and things started going south and although very obvious to some on here that the O line was pitiful , you ,Cd, started your assault on Trevor and the ribs, while for some mind boggling reason, was defending the horrible Oline and started your inane push for Lynch. I will say your pretty good at some analysis buddy, but when it comes to Qb evaluations especially Broncos situation last season , you suck. Ill be checking mailbox for my 50 spot this year. Well, unless you flip again

Not sure this is the "Gotcha" moment you are thinking it is going to be...

Let's work on a few of the facts here first. 1) It was week 4 against the Bengals where he had some great stats. I was still critical of a couple of throws as he had 2 pick-6's that were dropped in that game otherwise it looks like a not so great game for Siemian. All QB's have dropped interceptions though so no big deal. Good game. And I thought I was pretty clear that yes Siemian was surprising me with how well he was playing compared to what I thought he would be.

Week 6 yes I was critical of Siemian but I was more critical of the coaching staff. He should not have been in that game. Easy to see for everybody watching that he wasn't healthy. End of the game when he is trying to throw a hail mary pass and can't throw it over 30 yards was plenty indicator of that. I don't blame him for that as every player wants to play. Coaches have to make the tough calls and Kubiak screwed that one up badly and maybe cost us the playoffs because of decisions like that.

Moving on from that. This is what I keep trying to say to you and not sure why this doesn't sink in. Others on the board please let me know if I am not explaining this well enough or if it is just Randymon having trouble understanding what I am saying. I am critical of some of the flaws in Siemian's game but that doesn't mean that I dislike him as a player. I see the good and the bad in his game. Just like with every player on the team they have strengths and weaknesses and pointing both out doesn't mean I hate or like a player.

For Siemian...The good

Toughness--Can't argue with the fact that this kid played through some tough injuries.
Smart--Easy to see he had a good grasp of the playbook and what he needed to do with the ball
Decent arm--Can make all the throws no problem
Hard worker--I've been told he was first one in and last one out most days at Dove Valley this past year. Looks like he learned what kind of work ethic it takes to make it in this league from Manning.
When healthy decent accuracy--Was 8th in the league in completion percentage before the injuries really set in and destroyed this part of his game.

The bad
Injury prone--hasn't finished a full season since high school. Hard to trust him as a long-term solution until he can prove he can make it through 16+ games without major injuries
Deep ball inconsistency--I don't saw 2 games all year where I thought his deep ball was something teams had to worry about. Some of that could have been injuries
Drop back distance--He improved a bit in this area as the season went on but you are crazy if you think all of the sacks either QB took are all on the OL. When you drop back 10 yards and hang back there you just make it easy for the defense and impossible for the OL. Both QB's were terrible at this.
Time from snap to throw--He held onto the ball something like 4th worst in the entire league in this category. Again you combine holding onto the ball with dropping back without stepping up into the pocket and it will lead to some disastrous moments.

So there is good and bad with Siemian. Doesn't mean he can't succeed in this league. Tom Brady has bad things in his game that you can exploit. Aaron Rodgers has bad things you can exploit with the right defense. In 2015 we played both of those QB's very well forcing them out of their comfort zone and they made mistakes. Doesn't mean they are not great QB's just means they have some flaws.

I'm sorry if I don't sit here and if Siemian is the starter say that he is a perfect QB. If you think he is then again I have some beach front property here in Kansas for you. There are plenty of things to like about Siemian's game though and what he brings to the team.

 

[cdumler7]

And I figured I should break up the 2nd part into another post. I never once said the OL was perfect or without blame for this past season. I said that there was some talent but that it would take time to develop. Unfortunately with the ZBS it takes time to get all 5 guys on the same page. The past 2 seasons we have replaced 4 starters on the OL. Hard to get them all on the same page when you keep changing so much. Doesn't mean they didn't have some talent.

Heck easy to see that some of the blame does fall on the RB's. We were a top half of the league rushing team before CJ Anderson went down with injury. Did they all of a sudden after week 7 get that much worse run blocking? Or can some of that fall on the RB's for not seeing the holes that were being opened up?

And like I said yes they are responsible for a lot of hits on our 2 QB's this past year but the QB's didn't help the OL out much at times either. Both have to be able to work together to look good. I'm hoping that both Siemian and Lynch have learned better drop back skills and ability to step up into the pocket type vision than last year. I hope both have learned to have a little faster internal clock going of when they need to get rid of that football.

To me about the only 2 guys on the offense that don't deserve a whole lot of blame are D. Thomas and Sanders. Even then both of them could have done just a bit more. I'm sure it weighed on them as the season progressed that there were lots of times they worked hard to get open to only see the OL not block well or the QB's be inaccurate getting them the ball. There is a reason Sanders' frustration was easy to see on the field.

So everybody needs to step up their game to make this work. All need to be able to look into the mirror and say "I can do better."

 

[CEH]

Not sure this is the "Gotcha" moment you are thinking it is going to be...

Let's work on a few of the facts here first. 1) It was week 4 against the Bengals where he had some great stats. I was still critical of a couple of throws as he had 2 pick-6's that were dropped in that game otherwise it looks like a not so great game for Siemian. All QB's have dropped interceptions though so no big deal. Good game. And I thought I was pretty clear that yes Siemian was surprising me with how well he was playing compared to what I thought he would be.

Week 6 yes I was critical of Siemian but I was more critical of the coaching staff. He should not have been in that game. Easy to see for everybody watching that he wasn't healthy. End of the game when he is trying to throw a hail mary pass and can't throw it over 30 yards was plenty indicator of that. I don't blame him for that as every player wants to play. Coaches have to make the tough calls and Kubiak screwed that one up badly and maybe cost us the playoffs because of decisions like that.

Moving on from that. This is what I keep trying to say to you and not sure why this doesn't sink in. Others on the board please let me know if I am not explaining this well enough or if it is just Randymon having trouble understanding what I am saying. I am critical of some of the flaws in Siemian's game but that doesn't mean that I dislike him as a player. I see the good and the bad in his game. Just like with every player on the team they have strengths and weaknesses and pointing both out doesn't mean I hate or like a player.

For Siemian...The good

Toughness--Can't argue with the fact that this kid played through some tough injuries.
Smart--Easy to see he had a good grasp of the playbook and what he needed to do with the ball
Decent arm--Can make all the throws no problem
Hard worker--I've been told he was first one in and last one out most days at Dove Valley this past year. Looks like he learned what kind of work ethic it takes to make it in this league from Manning.
When healthy decent accuracy--Was 8th in the league in completion percentage before the injuries really set in and destroyed this part of his game.

The bad
Injury prone--hasn't finished a full season since high school. Hard to trust him as a long-term solution until he can prove he can make it through 16+ games without major injuries
Deep ball inconsistency--I don't saw 2 games all year where I thought his deep ball was something teams had to worry about. Some of that could have been injuries
Drop back distance--He improved a bit in this area as the season went on but you are crazy if you think all of the sacks either QB took are all on the OL. When you drop back 10 yards and hang back there you just make it easy for the defense and impossible for the OL. Both QB's were terrible at this.
Time from snap to throw--He held onto the ball something like 4th worst in the entire league in this category. Again you combine holding onto the ball with dropping back without stepping up into the pocket and it will lead to some disastrous moments.

So there is good and bad with Siemian. Doesn't mean he can't succeed in this league. Tom Brady has bad things in his game that you can exploit. Aaron Rodgers has bad things you can exploit with the right defense. In 2015 we played both of those QB's very well forcing them out of their comfort zone and they made mistakes. Doesn't mean they are not great QB's just means they have some flaws.

I'm sorry if I don't sit here and if Siemian is the starter say that he is a perfect QB. If you think he is then again I have some beach front property here in Kansas for you. There are plenty of things to like about Siemian's game though and what he brings to the team.

I thought Sieman played damn well for a first time starter with zero live game snaps and playing for the defending Super Bowl champions. Problem he will have this year is because of his shoulder surgery he will not be able to get into the weight room so chances are he will get injured again. I'd love to see what a healthy TMoney can do for a full 2nd season. They said last year he had 2 options per play thanks to that asshat Kubiak and his my way or the highway offense. He's smart enough to be given the ability to audible this year . I think he could be top 5-7 QB in the AFC. For me, his flash games in Cincy and KC were good enough to be optimistic about a sophomore season especially with the QB coaches we have this year. A first year HC my want a veteran QB for job security so hopefully Elway and VJ are on the same page with these two young QBs.

 

[cdumler7]

I thought Sieman played damn well for a first time starter with zero live game snaps and playing for the defending Super Bowl champions. Problem he will have this year is because of his shoulder surgery he will not be able to get into the weight room so chances are he will get injured again. I'd love to see what a healthy TMoney can do for a full 2nd season. They said last year he had 2 options per play thanks to that asshat Kubiak and his my way or the highway offense. He's smart enough to be given the ability to audible this year . I think he could be top 5-7 QB in the AFC. For me, his flash games in Cincy and KC were good enough to be optimistic about a sophomore season especially with the QB coaches we have this year. A first year HC my want a veteran QB for job security so hopefully Elway and VJ are on the same page with these two young QBs.

No I agree with you on this. I think this is where @randymon hasn't always understood what I have said. I was impressed with Siemian last year. He has plenty of things to work on though to become the QB we need him to be consistently. And like you I do worry about his ability to stay healthy. He hasn't shown that ability in a long time. All that I am saying are things that are not unfixable. He has the work ethic, right attitude, and the smarts to do all he needs to do. I'm done doubting his ability to turn into something. He still has an uphill battle though to prove he can be the long-term solution.

And yes Kubiak's offense the last 2 years was frustrating to watch. 75% of the plays I could have told you exactly what to expect before the ball was snapped. So I can imagine every DC in the NFL could do that at an even higher rate. He was predictable, cautious, and ran an outdated system that just doesn't work in today's NFL. IF he could have updated his blocking schemes like Shanahan did for Atlanta then maybe this offense works just a bit better. If he could have learned that giving the OT's some help every once in a while is a good thing maybe we win a couple more games. To me the NFL is about learning to adapt or seeing the game pass you by.

 

[CEH]

No I agree with you on this. I think this is where @randymon hasn't always understood what I have said. I was impressed with Siemian last year. He has plenty of things to work on though to become the QB we need him to be consistently. And like you I do worry about his ability to stay healthy. He hasn't shown that ability in a long time. All that I am saying are things that are not unfixable. He has the work ethic, right attitude, and the smarts to do all he needs to do. I'm done doubting his ability to turn into something. He still has an uphill battle though to prove he can be the long-term solution.

And yes Kubiak's offense the last 2 years was frustrating to watch. 75% of the plays I could have told you exactly what to expect before the ball was snapped. So I can imagine every DC in the NFL could do that at an even higher rate. He was predictable, cautious, and ran an outdated system that just doesn't work in today's NFL. IF he could have updated his blocking schemes like Shanahan did for Atlanta then maybe this offense works just a bit better. If he could have learned that giving the OT's some help every once in a while is a good thing maybe we win a couple more games. To me the NFL is about learning to adapt or seeing the game pass you by.

I would assume his internal clock will be better in 2017. If not then he probably will never get better on the other hand a better internal clock will force him to get rid of the ball earlier and not drift trying to make a play.

 

[cdumler7]

I would assume his internal clock will be better in 2017. If not then he probably will never get better on the other hand a better internal clock will force him to get rid of the ball earlier and not drift trying to make a play.

It should get better. Really for me I have 2 big worries with Siemian.

1) Durability. We've already talked this to death but every Bronco fan should be worried about this if we are planning on investing in this kid long-term

2) He doesn't always go through his reads like he needs to. On those 3rd and 5 plays how many times did we see him throw that 2-3 yards short yet on the screen see Sanders wide open for a 1st down. Now some of this honestly I do think was Kubiak. He didn't want his QB's taking many chances and well they were scared into taking the 1st guy that was open even if it wasn't the best decision. I need to see him work more to that 2nd level or at least 2nd and 3rd read on those 3rd down plays to know this offense can actually be something.

 

[CEH]

It should get better. Really for me I have 2 big worries with Siemian.

1) Durability. We've already talked this to death but every Bronco fan should be worried about this if we are planning on investing in this kid long-term

2) He doesn't always go through his reads like he needs to. On those 3rd and 5 plays how many times did we see him throw that 2-3 yards short yet on the screen see Sanders wide open for a 1st down. Now some of this honestly I do think was Kubiak. He didn't want his QB's taking many chances and well they were scared into taking the 1st guy that was open even if it wasn't the best decision. I need to see him work more to that 2nd level or at least 2nd and 3rd read on those 3rd down plays to know this offense can actually be something.

Correct. I'd like to see him more aggressive and then make an evaluation knowing he has the go ahead to make a play downfield and possibly throw a INT. Both DT and ES are open even when they are not open. Rivers is really elite throwing his WRs opens. I can see a lot of improvement in 2017 in areas that can only come with live reps in real games.

 

[cdumler7]

Correct. I'd like to see him more aggressive and then make an evaluation knowing he has the go ahead to make a play downfield and possibly throw a INT. Both DT and ES are open even when they are not open. Rivers is really elite throwing his WRs opens. I can see a lot of improvement in 2017 in areas that can only come with live reps in real games.

Agreed. Siemian showed plenty of promise to say he has a great chance of being our starting QB now and moving forward. At the same time because of the injuries there are just a lot of question marks about his game that we can't say how they will go one way or the other. Looking forward to seeing what he can do. I know a lot of people talk about the coaches being brought in to get Lynch up to speed and design an offense to fit him (myself included in that thought process) but Siemian played in a very similar style offense at Northwestern so I think he should do well as well. I think McCoy will be really good for him.

 

[iknowftbll]

24 ppg should be the target and would be an great improvement and push Denver right back to the top teams in the AFC
I have a lot of faith right now in our all star coaching staff

Yeah that wouldn't be a huge leap for the team. Last year we averaged 20.8 points per game so just a hair over a field goal added. Just one more scoring drive per game changes the entire dynamic of the team in my opinion. Means more time on the field for the offense, less 3 and outs, and our defense maybe with a chance to attack the QB.

This is exactly what I mean when I talk about modest or marginal improvement. This is also why I believe this team isn't broken beyond repair, and even though I do not consider them contenders for a SB this year, I definitely think they can challenge for another AFC West title and once the playoffs starts it's anyone's for the taking. As bad as the offense was this past season, the team was 9-7 and very close to making the playoffs. If the Bills had been able to beat the Dolphins in OT, the Broncos would have been in the playoffs. And that's with an offense with that horrible 10-3-10 stretch.

The kinds of improvements I'm looking for are 3-4 more PPG, better time of possession and not going 3 and out every other drive. Also, being able to get a lead and let the defense do what it does. Being able to score in the first half would work wonders for our defense because it may force opponents to play against our strength on D.

 

[randymon]

No one is an QB expert not even the NFL GMs like Elway who is staring down A major QB bust
Seems like you take CDs "opinions " way to seriously because his opinion or yours or mine and $2.25 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

It's not about " expert " opinions CEH, it's about what's " warranted " and " justified " criticism. I'm in the majority of those that saw a young Qb perform exceptionally well given the cards he was dealt last season and Cd is in the minority that only looks for flaws, doesn't seem to see the the whole picture of what transpired last year. I say the kid deserves the same positive scorecard he got ,and has continuously received from JE, his coaches, his teammates and all the Bronco fans that actually know this game and that particular position and not the obvious ignorance of the minority of fans.

 

[randymon]

It should get better. Really for me I have 2 big worries with Siemian.

1) Durability. We've already talked this to death but every Bronco fan should be worried about this if we are planning on investing in this kid long-term

2) He doesn't always go through his reads like he needs to. On those 3rd and 5 plays how many times did we see him throw that 2-3 yards short yet on the screen see Sanders wide open for a 1st down. Now some of this honestly I do think was Kubiak. He didn't want his QB's taking many chances and well they were scared into taking the 1st guy that was open even if it wasn't the best decision. I need to see him work more to that 2nd level or at least 2nd and 3rd read on those 3rd down plays to know this offense can actually be something.

# 2 is where we have our problem. Getting ready to eat so Ill be most CERTAINLY addressing this post soon.

 

[randymon]

Ok # 2....are you serious ? You talk about me not getting it? #2 is what I've been trying to get through to that humongous thick skull you have ! You agree what it takes to beat maybe the best Qb of all time, yet you can't seem to phantom that what worked vs Brady, this kid was dealing with on a regular basis! Trevor was missing his 2nd and 3rd reads ? He was missing wide open wrs ? No shit. When you have no run game, the D is sending LB blitzes, corner blitzes on just about every passing down which by the way, Denver probably led league in most second and third and long plays last year, your Qb is getting someone in his face or pummeled down after down, and you don't expect a virtual rookie to start making mistakes, hurry throws, looking for the guy that's going break his neck and lose focus during games? Brady does it and it's because of great D and execution. One yr starter Trevor has it happen to him constantly every fucking game and you have the balls to point out his errant throws and failed progressions! You should be ashamed of yourself for finding anything but respect for that kid and acknowledge what a commendable job he did do with all that adversity. Give him a O line and run game and if he fails, then you can persecute his performance without any trouble from me. You need to get over your boner for unproven Lynch and start showing respect to those that have earned it. I'm done talking Trevor with you.

 

[Orange Crush77]

 

[CEH]

Queue the kid up again.

The new coach thought TMoney play better than given credit for

Does Siemian have upper hand on Paxton Lynch?

 

[Orange Crush77]

I fully expect Siemian to be the starter come opening day. Lynch did nothing to really impress me.

 

[Mingo]

I fully expect Siemian to be the starter come opening day. Lynch did nothing to really impress me.

It will shorten the discussion considerably - if you would just tell us your list of people who have impressed you.

 

[58crash]

Lynch I will not give up on yet he is a work in progress . We all knew that when he was drafted .

Not all players come out of College ready to play . Drew Brees

 

[Mingo]

Lynch I will not give up on yet he is a work in progress . We all knew that when he was drafted .

Not all players come out of College ready to play . Drew Brees

I'll say this about Lynch again - His ability to make plays in HS and College was almost all instinctual - he never had to execute with precision to succeed. What you hear about him - not being ready - last season is not necessarily his lack of interest - as much as it was how far a journey he had to travel to get to where he needs to be. Lynch's game from college - reminded me of Jake Plummer (obviously not by physical comparison). I theorize he has a Jake Plummer type ceiling - which is pretty high. Mike Shanahan almost succeeded into turning Jake Plummer into his robot QB on the field. While Lynch and Plummer might have the same type instinct on a broken play to make a big play - Lynch threatens a larger portion of the field with his arm than Plummer did.

 

[Orange Crush77]

It will shorten the discussion considerably - if you would just tell us your list of people who have impressed you.

The Defense. That's all. E Sanders showed some grit. But for the most part the offense was putrid

 

[58crash]

I'll say this about Lynch again - His ability to make plays in HS and College was almost all instinctual - he never had to execute with precision to succeed. What you hear about him - not being ready - last season is not necessarily his lack of interest - as much as it was how far a journey he had to travel to get to where he needs to be. Lynch's game from college - reminded me of Jake Plummer (obviously not by physical comparison). I theorize he has a Jake Plummer type ceiling - which is pretty high. Mike Shanahan almost succeeded into turning Jake Plummer into his robot QB on the field. While Lynch and Plummer might have the same type instinct on a broken play to make a big play - Lynch threatens a larger portion of the field with his arm than Plummer did.

Actually it was Kubiak that Plummer responded to and failed at Shanahan's after Kubaik left .