A Solution For Preventing Holds On End Zone Safeties?

[Robotech]

Everyone seems to be concerned that scoring play (a safety is not a penalty) is a rule that should be changed because it makes a mockery of the rules.

Maybe more conversation should address this situation. When a quarterback "clocks" the ball after a firstdown , is there a more blatant expample of "intentional grouding" in the history of game. Yet the rules were changed to allow it.

As far as running out the clock when the other team has no timeouts, I like the arena football lead rule that if a team is leading in the last two minutes of the game they must make positive yardage on the play in order to keep the clock running.

How about this for discussion, when a team on offense is behind the refs rush to get the ball spotted. However, if the defense is behind they take there time in setting the ball before starting the play clock.

I've thought about that idea of stopping the clock if the offense does not make positive yardage. I actually think that is a reasonable rule. I doubt it will ever happen, but it would make the last two minutes of the game more compelling. Victory formation is boring, unless it's your team who is winning, of course. If you don't have a dog in the fight, you probably want to see them play football instead of kneeling.

 

[RGrabber]

An after thought for the guys who hated the safety. Greatest coaching call under pressure in history of football. High School game (I think in Texas) about 15 years ago.

Team needs to win by at least 3 points (because of tie breakers) to get into the state playoffs. Situation: Time out with 3 seconds left in the game, team is winning by 2 points and has possession on the opponents 45 yard line. One minute to make the call.
What to do? Hail mary pass, trick play, multiple laterals, have a high school kid try a 62 yead field goal. What is you call? Think for a minute and answer.

Actual coach's call.

Have the fastest guy on team take the snap and run 55 yards back to his own end zone for a safey sending the game into overtime. As luck would have it he wins by six in the overtime and makes the state playoffs.

 

[Robotech]

An after thought for the guys who hated the safety. Greatest coaching call under pressure in history of football. High School game (I think in Texas) about 15 years ago.

Team needs to win by at least 3 points (because of tie breakers) to get into the state playoffs. Situation: Time out with 3 seconds left in the game, team is winning by 2 points and has possession on the opponents 45 yard line. One minute to make the call.
What to do? Hail mary pass, trick play, multiple laterals, have a high school kid try a 62 yead field goal. What is you call? Think for a minute and answer.

Actual coach's call.

Have the fastest guy on team take the snap and run 55 yards back to his own end zone for a safey sending the game into overtime. As luck would have it he wins by six in the overtime and makes the state playoffs.

Wow, that is genius, and probably the highest percentage play he could have picked.

 

[Bemular]

An after thought for the guys who hated the safety. Greatest coaching call under pressure in history of football. High School game (I think in Texas) about 15 years ago.

Team needs to win by at least 3 points (because of tie breakers) to get into the state playoffs. Situation: Time out with 3 seconds left in the game, team is winning by 2 points and has possession on the opponents 45 yard line. One minute to make the call.
What to do? Hail mary pass, trick play, multiple laterals, have a high school kid try a 62 yead field goal. What is you call? Think for a minute and answer.

Actual coach's call.

Have the fastest guy on team take the snap and run 55 yards back to his own end zone for a safey sending the game into overtime. As luck would have it he wins by six in the overtime and makes the state playoffs.

That is insanely intelligent!

 

[MHSL82]

I watched the play again, but I wish Culliver had gone for the ball too instead of just pushing the punter out of bounds. This is one of the few things that I don't blame him for but wish had happened. The punter was holding it securely until Culliver got close and if Culliver went for the midsection to hit the ball with his left hand, he either drops it, goes out of bounds anyway, or is tackled in bounds. The last one would run more time off, I suppose, but we were going to get a kick and no more plays anyway. (A fair catch would lead to a free kick.)

Chances are he wouldn't have been able to strip the ball with his left hand and if he did and there was a scrum that the Ravens recovered, we wouldn't have even the kick return chance.

At 2:49:10. Link goes to specific point.

NFL Super Bowl XLVII Baltimore Ravens vs San Francisco 49's [Full Game] - YouTube

[YOUTUBE]czEthAbh8FI#t=2h49m10s[/YOUTUBE]

 

[MHSL82]

Grasping at straws.

Forget it. There was little chance, I'm sure he's holding on strongly and it would take the best angle to hit it out and then luck to land on it. And now that we know what happened, all alternatives sound better when they wouldn't actually lead to anything in all likelihood.

Obviously, the rule should make them kick again, with the time returned, and while we get to keep the points. Each time the points at stake gets higher (a second safety would be thee points added to the two). Just kidding.

I thought the announcers were dumb when they said that we weren't prepared and didn't go after the punter. That's what we were trying to do. We try to do that on most, in not all punts, especially when it is obvious what they were trying to do.

I need to go to sleep, though this isn't what's keeping me up. Watching a show on the DVR that I couldn't get to until now.

 

[MHSL82]

Show just ended, so I really am going to go to sleep, but one more question: a play can be blown dead by forward progress, even if we were pushing him forward to the one yard line, right? (Assuming no holding.) It wouldn't happen because then the clock would run out, just wondering.

Oh and the kickoff should be from the goal-line after a safety. It makes the free kick more possible and dissuades the safety a little, maybe.

 

[Ltrain]

These solutions are nice and all, but it doesn't matter if the refs have their fucking flags stuck in their pockets because they don't want to have an impact on how the game ends. According to the refs there was no infraction(s) on the play and that is the call we have to deal with.

 

[Flyingiguana]

better solution....

use kaps legs and win the game

 

[TheNinerMind]

Leave it as it is, but if holding occurs and the holding does not cause the safety - ie the player runs out of bounds or is tackled, then the kickoff must take place from the goal line.

 

[Bemular]

Leave it as it is, but if holding occurs and the holding does not cause the safety - ie the player runs out of bounds or is tackled, then the kickoff must take place from the goal line.

What about the clock 'Mind? Are we putting the time back on the clock or no?

 

[MHSL82]

Leave it as it is, but if holding occurs and the holding does not cause the safety - ie the player runs out of bounds or is tackled, then the kickoff must take place from the goal line.

If holding occurs and the punter runs the clock out to zero and goes out, is the game over? A game can't end on a defensive penalty, but it can on an offensive one, right? Even if the defense declines it there'd be no point because time is gone.

So I would amend to your solution, that if there is a hold, the team still has to kickoff, and from the goal-line like you said. Still unfair because a fair catch and free kick would be impossible with no time left.

 

[Bemular]

If holding occurs and the punter runs the clock out to zero and goes out, is the game over? A game can't end on a defensive penalty, but it can on an offensive one, right? Even if the defense declines it there'd be no point because time is gone.

So I would amend to your solution, that if there is a hold, the team still has to kickoff, and from the goal-line like you said. Still unfair because a fair catch and free kick would be impossible with no time left.

What if there was 12 seconds on the clock and the receiving team of the free kick has a timeout? Both of those would be wiped out by the holding and thus kicking from the goal-line is of little or no consequence right?

 

[MHSL82]

What if there was 12 seconds on the clock and the receiving team of the free kick has a timeout? Both of those would be wiped out by the holding and thus kicking from the goal-line is of little or no consequence right?

There wouldn't be 12 seconds left, because I'm only talking about a rule regarding a situation where the punter runs all time off the clock due to a called holding. (Ending a game on an offensive penalty on a safety unless the defense declines the penalty). You can run the clock out, but if there's a hold, you shouldn't be able to run the clock out and just take the safety. I don't want the refs, if they call it, to say, "oh well, times up." Because then we're back to this situation.

If there is still time on the clock, like 12 seconds, I think kicking the kickoff from the goalline (only when there's a penalty for holding, too) is just to make the free kick more probable. Chances are if there was 12 seconds left, the team would catch the ball and run out of bounds, hoping for a hail mary. If there's no hold, kick from the 20.

As for kicking from the goalline, I guess my problem is that I'm viewing this at an angle of strategically holding without further penalty and me wanting to de-incentivize it - so kicking the kickoff from the goalline would make a free kick more possible but not a shoein (the kick from the 20 went to the 20-25, but a bad kick or average kick from the goalline would be closer than the 40 = <70 yard free kick).

 

[MHSL82]

I need to clarify that the ending a game on an offensive penalty is not a concern unless the penalty is on purpose and not for the offense's normal benefit (a safety is most often a bad thing). We can't have the refs figure out intent, so I would apply this rule only to safeties like this, but regardless of intent. Costly mistake if you accidentally hold, but just work hard not to hold, then.

If we had a rule where the game couldn't end on an offensive penalty and the offense holds in order to score a TD, the defense could not decline the penalty and allow the TD and they could not accept the penalty but give one more play because of the game-not-ending-on-an-offensive-penalty rule. So the rule would have to be narrowly tailored.

 

[Bemular]

There wouldn't be 12 seconds left, because I'm only talking about a rule regarding a situation where the punter runs all time off the clock due to a called holding.

Yes but if the holding is what allowed the punter to run the 12 seconds off the clock then shouldn't that time be put back on the clock? You have just stated the rule as it is now with the exception of where the ball is kicked correct?

 

[MHSL82]

I like your not-starting-the-clock-until-the-kick solution better, but it could be in addition or the goalline free kick could be an alternative if not yours. I am aiming to dissuade holding on safeties on purpose, but intent can't be for the refs to decide, so apply it regardless. Be careful out there if you don't want to kick from the goalline.

 

[MHSL82]

Yes but if the holding is what allowed the punter to run the 12 seconds off the clock then shouldn't that time be put back on the clock?

Yes it should, but I didn't think that was an option. I heard conflicting rules by fans on whether time can be added in the last two minutes. I also dubiously heard that 10 seconds would be run off if they called the holding - which should be wrong because we want time on the clock, why would the team that didn't commit the penalty accept a worse result? Also, we wouldn't decline the penalty to avoid the run off because then the team has another opportunity to run the clock out on another punt..

You have just stated the rule as it is now with the exception of where the ball is kicked correct?

No, I have also added that the kicker can't run the clock out completely if there's a hold. If no hold, then more power to him for being elusive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but under the current rules, if the punter runs the clock out and there's an offensive penalty, the 2 points are awarded and the game is over (because they can't add more time on the clock). My rule only applies if he runs the clock out. Ninermind's rule of where to kick only applies if there's a hold or a similar penalty on the offense.

The best solution is to return time on the clock, but I assumed you couldn't do that.

 

[Bemular]

Yes it should, but I didn't think that was an option. I heard conflicting rules by fans on whether time can be added in the last two minutes. I also dubiously heard that 10 seconds would be run off if they called the holding.



No, I have also added that the kicker can't run the clock out completely if there's a hold. If no hold, then more power to him for being elusive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but under the current rules, if the punter runs the clock out and there's an offensive penalty, the 2 points are awarded and the game is over (because they can't add more time on the clock). My rule only applies if he runs the clock out. Ninermind's rule of where to kick only applies if there's a hold or a similar penalty on the offense.

The best solution is to return time on the clock, but I assumed you couldn't do that.

Just don't start the clock until the ball is either kicked or received - problem solved.

 

[MHSL82]

Just don't start the clock until the ball is either kicked or received - problem solved.

But if there's no hold, the punting team should be able to run the clock out. That's just strategy and IMO, fair. But holding is not. I can guarantee you that we will one day (not sure how often) have a situation where we'll want to do that because we benefit from it. We did it in the Cincinnati game last year; in fact, he ran backwards to take the safety and run the clock out.

I wish that a hold would result in time being added to the clock. Maybe even to start of the play but probably to the time of the hold. Reviewable.