A Question

[NEhomer]

...and the rest of the story when I'm not on my phone.

If you were playing a match and your third pathetic shot ended
up under the limbs of fallen tree way over at the edge of the fairway, is there any chance that you would expect free relief because the "tree shouldn't be there?"

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Yes free relief...I think 24-1 or 24-2 depending on the size of the tree limb, should be in play.

 

[R.J. MacReady]

...and the rest of the story when I'm not on my phone.

If you were playing a match and your third pathetic shot ended
up under the limbs of fallen tree way over at the edge of the fairway, is there any chance that you would expect free relief because the "tree shouldn't be there?"

Sure ..the no nearer to the hole kinda thing should apply.

 

[NEhomer]

I'm finding no such thing as relief from a downed tree and thought it absurd when an opponent assumed it. If the tree branch was not fixed, it could be a loose impediment and removed. If it was a young staked tree and the stake interfered with stance or swing, yes. If our opponent had even asked how to proceed it might have been one thing. Dude simply pulled the ball out from under the limb....not even a proper drop...and swung away.

Would love to see anyone find something to correct me but I thought it was a stroke. Don't meant to be a prick or anything but when you're giving 9 strokes in a 9 hole match play, you kind of need the dude to hit a few of those shots. Funny thing is I parred and he doubled without the stroke anyway so it didn't even matter and I told him to take the 6 if he wanted to. My man didn't really care but his partner, who was playing my partner appeared torqued.

Then on the next hole, my partner knocked it under another huge limb that had come down near the OB line. The ball itself was not OB but two club lengths for an unplayable would not provide relief. The only viable unplayable option, keeping the pin in line and going back would have required the shot to be hit from OB so he properly abandoned it and used his provisional. Then angry dude challenged that it was OB anyway. Well, it wasn't OB and I invited him to come over and eye it with me. At that point he got all pissy with me. I said look, we determined it to be in bounds. It's our call....specifically my partner's....so if he wanted to overrule us, fine, come over and take a look. Once again, it didn't even matter because it was being abandoned but dammit, it was clearly not OB. He refused to back up his claim and then it was all cold-war like an argument with your wife the rest of the round

I don't play that shit so I complimented his good shots as is commonly done while he sat mute. After the last putt, we all shook hands but dude snuffed me and only shook my partner's hand. I just stood there like, really? He wanted to drive away so badly but he saw me refusing to leave the green so he reluctantly returned to shake my hand. I asked um, what's was my crime? He refused to speak and just grumbled away.

You learn a lot about a man on a golf course.

Again, if anyone can find a free relief from a downed limb not marked as ground under repair rule, I'd love to see it. I can find no such thing.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I'm finding no such thing as relief from a downed tree and thought it absurd when an opponent assumed it. If the tree branch was not fixed, it could be a loose impediment and removed. If it was a young staked tree and the stake interfered with stance or swing, yes. If our opponent had even asked how to proceed it might have been one thing. Dude simply pulled the ball out from under the limb....not even a proper drop...and swung away.

Would love to see anyone find something to correct me but I thought it was a stroke. Don't meant to be a prick or anything but when you're giving 9 strokes in a 9 hole match play, you kind of need the dude to hit a few of those shots. Funny thing is I parred and he doubled without the stroke anyway so it didn't even matter and I told him to take the 6 if he wanted to. My man didn't really care but his partner, who was playing my partner appeared torqued.

Then on the next hole, my partner knocked it under another huge limb that had come down near the OB line. The ball itself was not OB but two club lengths for an unplayable would not provide relief. The only viable unplayable option, keeping the pin in line and going back would have required the shot to be hit from OB so he properly abandoned it and used his provisional. Then angry dude challenged that it was OB anyway. Well, it wasn't OB and I invited him to come over and eye it with me. At that point he got all pissy with me. I said look, we determined it to be in bounds. It's our call....specifically my partner's....so if he wanted to overrule us, fine, come over and take a look. Once again, it didn't even matter because it was being abandoned but dammit, it was clearly not OB. He refused to back up his claim and then it was all cold-war like an argument with your wife the rest of the round

I don't play that shit so I complimented his good shots as is commonly done while he sat mute. After the last putt, we all shook hands but dude snuffed me and only shook my partner's hand. I just stood there like, really? He wanted to drive away so badly but he saw me refusing to leave the green so he reluctantly returned to shake my hand. I asked um, what's was my crime? He refused to speak and just grumbled away.

You learn a lot about a man on a golf course.

Again, if anyone can find a free relief from a downed limb not marked as ground under repair rule, I'd love to see it. I can find no such thing.

I could be wrong, but moveable obstruction 24-1, or immoveable obstruction 24-2 seems like the governing rule depending on the size of the tree, but in both cases...free relief. It doesn't have to be marked GUR as some courses are much quicker to remove or mark such items than others.

 

[NEhomer]

Obstruction definition:

Obstruction - Definition of Obstruction in Golf

I'm not seeing tree anywhere here.

Definition: An "obstruction" is anything artificial on the golf course, with exceptions for any objects that define out of bounds, any construction that the local committee defines as an integral part of the course, or any immovable artificial object that is out of bounds.

 

[SFNL]

Unless it has been deemed to be ground under repair, I gotta believe that there is no free relief. Usually this will be marked with white paint around the obstruction. You can also call the pro shop to get a local ruling but I don't believe that there is anything in "the book" for this.

Bottom line, you can get the free drop if you ask the pro, otherwise, no.

Also, you are playing with polesmokers if they didn't give you relief.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Obstruction definition:

Obstruction - Definition of Obstruction in Golf

I'm not seeing tree anywhere here.

Definition: An "obstruction" is anything artificial on the golf course, with exceptions for any objects that define out of bounds, any construction that the local committee defines as an integral part of the course, or any immovable artificial object that is out of bounds.

True, the tree itself is not an obstruction as long as the limbs are intact or attached to the trunk....take a look at 23-7...I think this one better defines your situation.

USGA: Read the Rules and Decisions

 

[ATL96Steeler]

NE...you really peaked my interest.

Here you go.

USGA: Read the Rules and Decisions

The guy may have been a prick or whatever, but he was right to take free relief it seems.

 

[Debbie Does]

What the fuck is a tree limb doing in my rink?

 

[NEhomer]

Saw that page steeler ...I think SFNL is correct on the first of his assumptions.

SFNL, tree's way the fuck off to the side and has fallen mostly in the woods along a hazard....just 4 or 5 feet encroach. I assume you read where I stated that dude didn't said hey man, can I get this out from under here? A no response to that would definitely earn the polesmoker designation but I ask; in the same situation, you'd go over, kick it out from under the limbs and swipe it to the green with no mention of it and then accuse your opponent who's keeping the scorecard of polesmokedness if queried? If so, I kindly suggest that you play with your wife on Sunday afternoons and not in a match.

 

[NEhomer]

Not seeing where that applies steeler. He didn't break off a limb, he reached under, drew the ball along with the clubhead to a preferred lie...as he did with two subsequent casual water reliefs we didn't bother with.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Not seeing where that applies steeler. He didn't break off a limb, he reached under, drew the ball along with the clubhead to a preferred lie...as he did with two subsequent casual water reliefs we didn't bother with.

Just read your post prior to this one...for some reason I thought the tree limbs had fallen near the fairway.

Essentially 23-7 defines a fallen tree limb as a loose impediment...which you get free relief from outside the margin of a hazard.

23-1/4 basically determines that you don't have to move the entire loose impediment, you can break off the part that is affecting the swing...everything I read points to free relief if he was not in a hazard.

That said...he clearly was in a position where in a match he needed to say something to his competitor before proceeding.

 

[Wazmankg]

Unless the fallen tree was intended to be a permanent feature of the course, as opposed to intended to be removed asap, he should be allowed GUR relief as it should be considered "material piled for removal". There's nothing mimicking this exact circumstance, but there are a couple of decisions about similar situations under Rule 25. 25/7 is close USGA: Read the Rules and Decisions

 

[Wazmankg]

Also for GUR relief you don't have "to keep the pin in line and go back" or whatever the point was in the other downed limb situation. You just can't drop nearer to the hole after taking complete relief from the GUR condition. You play with a tough crowd.

 

[Wazmankg]

Also for GUR relief you don't have "to keep the pin in line and go back" or whatever the point was in the other downed limb situation. You just can't drop nearer to the hole after taking complete relief from the GUR condition. You play with a tough crowd.

That's a drop after taking complete relief plus 1 club length. Freebies = 1 club length, penalty drops = 2 club lengths.

I wish they'd lengthen the time we have to edit posts here.

 

[NEhomer]

Aware of how to precede there with GUR but Waz from your link it directly asks:

Q.A tree has fallen onto a fairway due to a windstorm and is still attached to the stump. Does it constitute ground under repair?

A.No. However, a player could request relief from the Committee and the Committee would be justified in declaring the area covered by the tree to be ground under repair.


If declared by the course to be GUR it would need to be marked as such. It's not piled up for removal and as inconspicuous as this one is, it might stay there all season!

On to loose impediment and I'm not seeing that either:

Definition: Definitions from the Official Rules of Golf appear courtesy of the USGA.
Loose Impediments: "Loose impediments" are natural objects including:
• stones, leaves, twigs, branches and the like,
• dung, and
• worms and insects and casts or heaps made by them, provided they are not:
• fixed or growing,
• solidly embedded, or
• adhering to the ball.

Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green, but not elsewhere.

Snow and natural ice, other than frost, are either casual water or loose impediments, at the option of the player.

I'm all for using the rules to advantage but sometimes ya just have to man up and take your consequences. I wouldn't even think of asking for relief here.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Aware of how to precede there with GUR but Waz from your link it directly asks:

Q.A tree has fallen onto a fairway due to a windstorm and is still attached to the stump. Does it constitute ground under repair?

A.No. However, a player could request relief from the Committee and the Committee would be justified in declaring the area covered by the tree to be ground under repair.


If declared by the course to be GUR it would need to be marked as such. It's not piled up for removal and as inconspicuous as this one is, it might stay there all season!

On to loose impediment and I'm not seeing that either:

Definition: Definitions from the Official Rules of Golf appear courtesy of the USGA.
Loose Impediments: "Loose impediments" are natural objects including:
• stones, leaves, twigs, branches and the like,
• dung, and
• worms and insects and casts or heaps made by them, provided they are not:
• fixed or growing,
• solidly embedded, or
• adhering to the ball.

Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green, but not elsewhere.

Snow and natural ice, other than frost, are either casual water or loose impediments, at the option of the player.

I'm all for using the rules to advantage but sometimes ya just have to man up and take your consequences. I wouldn't even think of asking for relief here.

NE...you state you're not seeing the loose impediment...you were there and obviously had a visual of everything.

That said if you break it down to it's simplest form I gathered the following.

Player hit a ball that came to rest underneath the limb of a fallen tree outside the margin of a hazard.

Question 1...was the fallen limb still attached to the tree?

Yes...player gets no relief

No...23/7 says the limb is a loose impediment, player gets free relief.

I'm with you on the point the player should've added at least one stroke to his score on the hole...improper drop or improperly taking relief is where I see the stroke coming from.

But again...you were there and saw it play out so I yield to your interpretation of what happened.

 

[Wazmankg]

Aware of how to precede there with GUR but Waz from your link it directly asks:

Q.A tree has fallen onto a fairway due to a windstorm and is still attached to the stump. Does it constitute ground under repair?

A.No. However, a player could request relief from the Committee and the Committee would be justified in declaring the area covered by the tree to be ground under repair.


If declared by the course to be GUR it would need to be marked as such. It's not piled up for removal and as inconspicuous as this one is, it might stay there all season!

On to loose impediment and I'm not seeing that either:

Definition: Definitions from the Official Rules of Golf appear courtesy of the USGA.
Loose Impediments: "Loose impediments" are natural objects including:
• stones, leaves, twigs, branches and the like,
• dung, and
• worms and insects and casts or heaps made by them, provided they are not:
• fixed or growing,
• solidly embedded, or
• adhering to the ball.

Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green, but not elsewhere.

Snow and natural ice, other than frost, are either casual water or loose impediments, at the option of the player.

I'm all for using the rules to advantage but sometimes ya just have to man up and take your consequences. I wouldn't even think of asking for relief here.

Well yeah, as I posted there's nothing describing your exact situation. If the fallen tree is still "solidly embedded to the ground" it's not a loose impediment. But if it isn't "solidly embedded to the ground" it is a loose impediment and a fallen branch that's no longer attached to the tree is clearly a loose impediment no matter how large. That wasn't really clear from the OP.... whether they were still attached or not. Then there's this -

A.No. However, a player could request relief from the Committee and the Committee would be justified in declaring the area covered by the tree to be ground under repair.

It's not GUR unless it's marked GUR or "the committee" deems it GUR when asked. But a golf club that would leave a downed tree laying out there all season is a golf club that probably isn't going to be very prompt or thorough about marking GUR either. Was this a money game amongst friends ? An official tournament of sorts ? Imo, the best course would have been to play 2 balls, 1 assuming GUR and 1 under the unplayable rule. Then after the round ask whatever authority is charged with defining such things "Hey, what's the deal with that downed tree on #5 ?". In any case, he should have used a club and stuck a couple of pegs in the ground to measure the GUR relief he took, so that was definitely an improper drop penalty.

 

[SFNL]

Saw that page steeler ...I think SFNL is correct on the first of his assumptions.

SFNL, tree's way the fuck off to the side and has fallen mostly in the woods along a hazard....just 4 or 5 feet encroach. I assume you read where I stated that dude didn't said hey man, can I get this out from under here? A no response to that would definitely earn the polesmoker designation but I ask; in the same situation, you'd go over, kick it out from under the limbs and swipe it to the green with no mention of it and then accuse your opponent who's keeping the scorecard of polesmokedness if queried? If so, I kindly suggest that you play with your wife on Sunday afternoons and not in a match.

This definitely clears it up... It should be marked as ground under repair but if it isn't and its wayyy out of the way, I'm probably going to make you take an unplayable unless you can get the pro to come out and grant it to you.

I don't do hit and giggles, so I'm a bit biased on this one.