Game Thread: 7/28 Wurst @ Furst

[calsnowskier]

Hembree was supposed to be hot shit.
Osich was supposed to be hot shit.
Okert was supposed to be hot shit.
Black was supposed to be hot shit.
Law was supposed to be hot shit.
Turpin was supposed to be hot shit.

 

[calsnowskier]

 

[Stokes1931]

I am done hearing how the Giants are so good at developing pitchers. They really aren't.

Bum was a blue-chipper, and graduated 7 years ago.
Timmeh was a blue-chipper, and graduated 9 years ago.
Cain was a good job, but he graduated 12 years ago.
Durty was alright, but 11 years ago.
Romo was 8 years ago.
Wilson was 11 years ago.
Heston was a one-year wonder.
...

And jack shit since. A few filler guys, but no one to hang your hat on.

Can we lay that mantra to rest now, please?

 

[Stokes1931]

Hembree was supposed to be hot shit.
Osich was supposed to be hot shit.
Okert was supposed to be hot shit.
Black was supposed to be hot shit.
Law was supposed to be hot shit.
Turpin was supposed to be hot shit.

I really don't care how highly they are touted, I just want to see guys doing their freaking jobs.

Moore never should have staying in past the 4 pitch leadoff walk.

That said, the bullpen allowing all three inherited runners to score, and then adding an additional run just to really screw things up, is, well, it is what they've been doing all year.

I don't think Rogers is "the answer", but why not bring up he and Snelton? They cannot do any worse than this pack of jackals.

 

[LHG]

Bring up Snelton. Osich belongs in Sacramento. Or Richmond.

Law pitches like this and gets a ticket to Sacramento. Osich pitches like this and he holds the lone left handed role in the bullpen. I agree, send him down and bring up Snelton.

 

[LHG]

I really don't care how highly they are touted, I just want to see guys doing their freaking jobs.

Moore never should have staying in past the 4 pitch leadoff walk.

That said, the bullpen allowing all three inherited runners to score, and then adding an additional run just to really screw things up, is, well, it is what they've been doing all year.

I don't think Rogers is "the answer", but why not bring up he and Snelton? They cannot do any worse than this pack of jackals.

Its funny how the bullpen seems to mess up so often but its the least of the team's issues. Just happened that tonight was different. I definitely want to see Osich down and Snelton up, but who gets the bump from the 40 man, Jordan Johnson? And who gets the bump from the 25 man and 40 man for Rogers?

 

[msgkings322]

Remember when we used to have a great bullpen? Yeah me neither LOL

 

[Stokes1931]

Its funny how the bullpen seems to mess up so often but its the least of the team's issues. Just happened that tonight was different. I definitely want to see Osich down and Snelton up, but who gets the bump from the 40 man, Jordan Johnson? And who gets the bump from the 25 man and 40 man for Rogers?

You're probably right. They will have to wait until September callups.

Cal's point about developing pitchers is accurate. More broadly, the Giants are not developing hitters very well, either, at least outfielders. I am really anxious to see how the San Jose outfielders develop.

Is it time for some new coaching, scouting, etc?

 

[Stokes1931]

Remember when we used to have a great bullpen? Yeah me neither LOL

2010

2012

2014

Yeah, I remember.

 

[calsnowskier]

2010

2012

2014

Yeah, I remember.

 

[LHG]

Hembree was supposed to be hot shit.
Osich was supposed to be hot shit.
Okert was supposed to be hot shit.
Black was supposed to be hot shit.
Law was supposed to be hot shit.
Turpin was supposed to be hot shit.

cal, you did a review recently of the 2008 and 2007 drafts, correct?
A causal overview of the the three drafts after that:

2009 produced the following big leaguers: Zach Wheeler (still too early to tell if he'll be good but injuries may take him out young); Tommy Joseph (flash in the pan 1st baseman?); Chris Dominguez (looking to be a career minor leaguer); Brandon Belt (decent major leaguer and probably best of the draft); Chris Heston (flaming out); Jake Dunning (not much of a big league career); Ryan Lollis (turning into an org player, after holding that title before his crazy 2016 season). There's 3 other players from that draft playing indy baseball. All others are no longer playing.

2010 produced the following big leaguers: Gary Brown (currently playing indy ball); Jarret Parker (is he almost an ex-Giant?); Seth Rosin (back with the org at AA); Heath Hembree (serviceable reliever); Michael Kickham (hasn't looked good in a while); Adam Duvall (the one that got away); Brett Bochy (got a raw deal by being the manager's son, out of baseball). There are two players in indy ball and Jeff Arnold playing poorly at AA. Interestingly, the Giants drafted Alec Asher in the 23rd round but couldn't sign him. He's not looking great for Baltimore.

2011 produced the following big leaguers: Joe Panik (good defensive 2nd baseman); Kyle Crick (may yet develop to be a good reliever); Andrew Susac (can I say it? His career is looking to be on life support); Josh Osich (yeah, about him); Derek Law (see Osich, Josh); Kelby Tomlinson (could be a decent utility man); Cody Hall (see Rosin, Seth); Joe Biagini (decent long man for Toronto); Jacob Smith (Padres still have him in the minors). There are 3 others playing indy ball, Raymond Black is dealing with yet another serious injury (will he come back?) and Clayton Blackburn is scuffling with the Rangers organization. Andrew Triggs was drafted in the 21st round but did not sign. He would probably be the best (or 2nd best, depending on Crick's development) from the draft had he signed.

Using these three drafts as samples for current player development, I'd say the Giants are having more success at developing infielders than anything else.

 

[calsnowskier]

cal, you did a review recently of the 2008 and 2007 drafts, correct?
A causal overview of the the three drafts after that:

2009 produced the following big leaguers: Zach Wheeler (still too early to tell if he'll be good but injuries may take him out young); Tommy Joseph (flash in the pan 1st baseman?); Chris Dominguez (looking to be a career minor leaguer); Brandon Belt (decent major leaguer and probably best of the draft); Chris Heston (flaming out); Jake Dunning (not much of a big league career); Ryan Lollis (turning into an org player, after holding that title before his crazy 2016 season). There's 3 other players from that draft playing indy baseball. All others are no longer playing.

2010 produced the following big leaguers: Gary Brown (currently playing indy ball); Jarret Parker (is he almost an ex-Giant?); Seth Rosin (back with the org at AA); Heath Hembree (serviceable reliever); Michael Kickham (hasn't looked good in a while); Adam Duvall (the one that got away); Brett Bochy (got a raw deal by being the manager's son, out of baseball). There are two players in indy ball and Jeff Arnold playing poorly at AA. Interestingly, the Giants drafted Alec Asher in the 23rd round but couldn't sign him. He's not looking great for Baltimore.

2011 produced the following big leaguers: Joe Panik (good defensive 2nd baseman); Kyle Crick (may yet develop to be a good reliever); Andrew Susac (can I say it? His career is looking to be on life support); Josh Osich (yeah, about him); Derek Law (see Osich, Josh); Kelby Tomlinson (could be a decent utility man); Cody Hall (see Rosin, Seth); Joe Biagini (decent long man for Toronto); Jacob Smith (Padres still have him in the minors). There are 3 others playing indy ball, Raymond Black is dealing with yet another serious injury (will he come back?) and Clayton Blackburn is scuffling with the Rangers organization. Andrew Triggs was drafted in the 21st round but did not sign. He would probably be the best (or 2nd best, depending on Crick's development) from the draft had he signed.

Using these three drafts as samples for current player development, I'd say the Giants are having more success at developing infielders than anything else.

I may go back and do another league wide study of these drafts. As we saw from the '08 draft, just because one team did not produce anything does not mean they had a bad draft. Outside of the Giants, NO ONE had a draft that year.

I think a MAJOR organizational failure of the Giants is their absolute refusal to do anything with the Latin world. The Dodgers, Red Sox, Astros, Padres, Yankees, White Sox and A's (just to name a few) have basically doubled their draft classes by doing work south of the boarder. The last player the Giants have graduated from there? Pablo. And that was what, 10 years ago?

 

[LHG]

I may go back and do another league wide study of these drafts. As we saw from the '08 draft, just because one team did not produce anything does not mean they had a bad draft. Outside of the Giants, NO ONE had a draft that year.

I think a MAJOR organizational failure of the Giants is their absolute refusal to do anything with the Latin world. The Dodgers, Red Sox, Astros, Padres, Yankees, White Sox and A's (just to name a few) have basically doubled their draft classes by doing work south of the boarder. The last player the Giants have graduated from there? Pablo. And that was what, 10 years ago?

There's this player, named Miguel Gomez, maybe you've heard of him. Just got his contract purchased before the All-Star break.

 

[calsnowskier]

There's this player, named Miguel Gomez, maybe you've heard of him. Just got his contract purchased before the All-Star break.

So a kid with 1 week of experience qualifies for this conversation?

 

[LHG]

So a kid with 1 week of experience qualifies for this conversation?

If we are talking about graduation, yes. If we are talking about being a big league regular, no. Not yet at least.

 

[calsnowskier]

If we are talking about graduation, yes. If we are talking about being a big league regular, no. Not yet at least.

I don't consider a cuppo as graduation. Otherwise, we got EA, Sosa, Peguera, etc.

I am talking about guys who actually DID something in the majors.

 

[SFGRTB]

I am done hearing how the Giants are so good at developing pitchers. They really aren't.

Bum was a blue-chipper, and graduated 7 years ago.
Timmeh was a blue-chipper, and graduated 9 years ago.
Cain was a good job, but he graduated 12 years ago.
Durty was alright, but 11 years ago.
Romo was 8 years ago.
Wilson was 11 years ago.
Heston was a one-year wonder.
...

And jack shit since. A few filler guys, but no one to hang your hat on.

Can we lay that mantra to rest now, please?

1. It's always been more of a thing the "talking heads" like to discuss.

2. It's tough to consistently churn out talent year after year, let alone star talent. Not many (any?) teams do that.

3. The Giants are definitely in a lull in that aspect right now.

 

[calsnowskier]

1. It's always been more of a thing the "talking heads" like to discuss.

2. It's tough to consistently churn out talent year after year, let alone star talent. Not many (any?) teams do that.

3. The Giants are definitely in a lull in that aspect right now.

The Giants have done fine with position players, though. Panik, Duffy, Belt, Crawford, Duvall and Posey just in the last 7 years. That is a decent top end. The problem comes from the mid-grade production. Hector, Kelby, Heston, Blach, um, Biagini? A bunch of cuppos.

To be fair, I have no idea what other orgs have done in the same time period, so it is hard to compare. That's why I have been doing those draft studies, to get some context.

 

[SFGRTB]

The Giants have done fine with position players, though. Panik, Duffy, Belt, Crawford, Duvall and Posey just in the last 7 years. That is a decent top end. The problem comes from the mid-grade production. Hector, Kelby, Heston, Blach, um, Biagini? A bunch of cuppos.

To be fair, I have no idea what other orgs have done in the same time period, so it is hard to compare. That's why I have been doing those draft studies, to get some context.

That's because I don't think any 1 organization specializes in "breeding" one type of talent or another. It just depends what top end talent they are going after at that time, or what type of organizational talent they are searching for. The Giants were "pitching gurus" at one point and couldn't develop a hitter, but then started churning out hitters and haven't graduated a legit arm in awhile. It's just a matter of what the team's focus is at the time, and a whole lot of luck.

The Giants were ahead of the game at one point, they saw where baseball was headed after the steroid era and capitalized on it. They went hard after top end pitching talent and more contact, station-to-station oriented hitters with great defensive chops. And that's what dominated baseball up until last year, when it shifted back to a more power game. And now the Giants seem to be a bit behind. I think it's fair to say the Giants tried to milk that a bit longer than they should have (something they've long had a history of).

 

[SFGRTB]

Couple things here about that 7th inning....

1. Why did Bochy not pinch hit for Moore? This one is somewhat forgivable I guess. But you have a rested Pen.

2. Maybe I'm giving Roberts too much credit here, but I think he baited Bochy into making a move when he pinch hit Puig. Puig hits right handers significantly better than lefties, but I think he knew Boch would make a switch to get the RH-RH matchup, splits be damned. (Again, maybe too much credit here because a tired Moore is probably still a good matchup for Puig).

3. Damn it why does Bochy continually put in cruddy relievers into big spots. Would have been a nice spot for Stickland. Stop putting Kontos into tire fire situations.