24 Minute NBA Playoff Game 4

[wlk3]

PG - Jason Kidd - New Jersey
Career - 12.6ppg 6.3rpg 8.7apg
Career year - 14.3ppg 7.2rpg 10.1apg
Prime 3 99-02 - 15.3ppg 7rpg 9.9apg

Tony Parker -
Career - 17ppg 2.9rpg 5.9apg
Career year - 22ppg 3.1rpg 5.9apg

SG - John Havlicek - Boston
Career - 20.8ppg 6.3rpg 4.5apg
career year 70-71 - 28.9ppg 9rpg 7.5apg
Prime 3 69-72 - 26.8ppg 8.3rpg 7.3rpg

Ray Allen -
Career - 18.9ppg 4.1rpg 3.4apg
Career year - 26.4 4.5rpg 4.apg

SF - Bernard King - New York
Career - 22.5ppg 5.8rpg 3.3apg
Career year - 32.9ppg 5.8rpg 3.7apg
Prime 3 82-85 - 26.6ppg 5.2rpg 2.8apg

Lebron James -
Career - 27.5ppg 7.1rpg 6.9apg
Career year - 30ppg 7.9rpg 7.2apg

PF - Charles Barkley - Phoenix
Career - 22.1ppg 11.7rpg 3.9apg
Career year - 25.6ppg 12.2rpg 5.1apg
Prime 3 90-93 - 25.3ppg 11.2rpg 4.5apg

Dirk -
Career - 22.4ppg 8rpg 2.6apg
Career year - 26.1ppg 9.7rpg 3.1apg


C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - L.A. Lakers
Career - 24.6ppg 11.2rpg 3.6apg 2.6bpg
Career year - 34.8ppg 16.6rpg 4.6apg
Prime 3 70-73 - 32.3ppg 16.2rpg 4.3apg
He averaged 30+ and 14+ 4 times... 3+blocks per game 7 (4+ twice) straight years and the 4 years prior they didn't keep track of blocks...

Bill Russell
Career - 15.1ppg 22.5rpg 4.3apg
Career year - 18.9ppg 23.6rpg 4.5apg

I won't get into pace adjustments for those numbers that Bill got... Even with him posting those obscene rebounds, I still out rebound him... Player for player LBJ is the only player for the starters that is better and per Nos Kemp and Mikan I disagree but give him that ... Maybe Dirk is equal to Barkley but I take Barkley....

Parker < Kidd
Allen < Hondo
LBJ > King
Dirk = Chuck
Bill < KAJ

Curry < Monroe
Billups < Thompson
Hill < Barry
Kemp > Webber
Mikan > Walton

6 WLK
3 Ritz
1 tie

Numbers wise my guys are better... H2H I win... But I lose...

 

[wlk3]

And Hill.

IMO, Billups is around Top 50 AllTime. (BasketballRefernce says he's 36th best I believe.). He a point gaurd, that can get open without the ball, and is as clutch as anyone. He also is an excellent defender. Hill was basically a point forward before injuries took over. He led his team in points, rebounds and assists. That's rare.

And Curry is lights out. All three can bring the ball up court. And if its Hill, that leaves two guys working for open looks that are good at putting open looks to use. I wanted Curry as a two gaurd because of his shooting.

I do think Allen's value is greatly diminished because of Hondo. But Barkleys presence in the paint is because Dirk draws him outside.

If Ritz had pulled off his trade for Ewing I wouldn't have felt the same. But I think Russell is as good defensively as any big man. (One one 1st Team Defense. His final season. Because it was the first season of the distinction.)

I don't mean to dig at Kareem, he's great. But he played his career with talent like we have on our Mock teams. Offensively. Oscar in Milwaukee then Magic. Two of the best players in the games history getting him the ball. I only mention not wanting to dig, because Im not giving him enough advantage over BR to sway the matchup. Not because I don't think he's great. He's right there with his point gaurds as best ever.

I would have voted for you over my team, if that helps any.

No it doesn't but I appreciate some input which is worth losing... I find it insulting for people to vote saying how close a game is but doesn't say why they vote...


As for Hill, he faces a guy who lead his team in every category as well only Barry led the worst team to ever win a ring to the that ring...

Billups and curry I'll concede the ability to shoot open shots Steph eve guarded shots... But neither one can hold the guy they are guarding even remotely close... And though we are talking 3s over 2s Billups was a set shooter from the 3pt line and wasn't all that shifty so he's not going to lose Thompson... Curry would get his but what's the most Billups averaged per game... He's not going to light it up...

And Walton was a defensive beast... His career was cut short but that's what was so amazing about him.... He was the MVP in 60 games... He took his team and won a ring being injured... He then comes back to win 6th man of the year... He basically made the all time 50 team in 4 years of play... In all honesty I would have understood a loss to Shane but I really can't see this loss...

Lastly.... KAJ... Come on man... The pg play got him rings I agree, but his points came from him... They didn't lob or PnR, they gave it to him on the block and cleared... He is #1 all time in scoring... The skyhook was/is the most unstoppable shot in history... He faced every great big man in here and the only 1 ive heard of that stayed close was Thurmond... Who was tell and athletic... BR is 6'7" guarding a guy who made a career out of using his 7'2" height to his advantage... Oh well game over...

 

[Ritzarmy]

PG - Jason Kidd - New Jersey
Career - 12.6ppg 6.3rpg 8.7apg
Career year - 14.3ppg 7.2rpg 10.1apg
Prime 3 99-02 - 15.3ppg 7rpg 9.9apg

Tony Parker -
Career - 17ppg 2.9rpg 5.9apg
Career year - 22ppg 3.1rpg 5.9apg

SG - John Havlicek - Boston
Career - 20.8ppg 6.3rpg 4.5apg
career year 70-71 - 28.9ppg 9rpg 7.5apg
Prime 3 69-72 - 26.8ppg 8.3rpg 7.3rpg

Ray Allen -
Career - 18.9ppg 4.1rpg 3.4apg
Career year - 26.4 4.5rpg 4.apg

SF - Bernard King - New York
Career - 22.5ppg 5.8rpg 3.3apg
Career year - 32.9ppg 5.8rpg 3.7apg
Prime 3 82-85 - 26.6ppg 5.2rpg 2.8apg

Lebron James -
Career - 27.5ppg 7.1rpg 6.9apg
Career year - 30ppg 7.9rpg 7.2apg

PF - Charles Barkley - Phoenix
Career - 22.1ppg 11.7rpg 3.9apg
Career year - 25.6ppg 12.2rpg 5.1apg
Prime 3 90-93 - 25.3ppg 11.2rpg 4.5apg

Dirk -
Career - 22.4ppg 8rpg 2.6apg
Career year - 26.1ppg 9.7rpg 3.1apg


C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - L.A. Lakers
Career - 24.6ppg 11.2rpg 3.6apg 2.6bpg
Career year - 34.8ppg 16.6rpg 4.6apg
Prime 3 70-73 - 32.3ppg 16.2rpg 4.3apg
He averaged 30+ and 14+ 4 times... 3+blocks per game 7 (4+ twice) straight years and the 4 years prior they didn't keep track of blocks...

Bill Russell
Career - 15.1ppg 22.5rpg 4.3apg
Career year - 18.9ppg 23.6rpg 4.5apg

I won't get into pace adjustments for those numbers that Bill got... Even with him posting those obscene rebounds, I still out rebound him... Player for player LBJ is the only player for the starters that is better and per Nos Kemp and Mikan I disagree but give him that ... Maybe Dirk is equal to Barkley but I take Barkley....

Parker < Kidd
Allen < Hondo
LBJ > King
Dirk = Chuck
Bill < KAJ

Curry < Monroe
Billups < Thompson
Hill < Barry
Kemp > Webber
Mikan > Walton

6 WLK
3 Ritz
1 tie

Numbers wise my guys are better... H2H I win... But I lose...

You didn't list any prime years for my guys so how can we compare. Like I said I really liked your team and I'm also shocked that you lost.

 

[Shanemansj13]

It is about matchups not just numbers. If it was about numbers I would of won the last matchup. Mainly bc I go for numbers and hope for good matchups

Dirk and Lebron are hard matchups. Kidd isnt a scorer, Tony's weakness is defensive but Kidd isnt a threat. Then you have the overrated Russell. A good team player, great rebounder, great passer, and a defensive guy.

And it helps him have 3 of the best 3 point shooters too. Allen, Curry, and Billups. And think what some people dont realize back in the day those great perimeter defenders didmt have to guard the 3. Makes it 10x easier IMO

 

[wlk3]

You didn't list any prime years for my guys so how can we compare. Like I said I really liked your team and I'm also shocked that you lost.

I didn't list 3 year primes because the game was already over and what I had already took almost an hour... Going off career year the drop for 3 year prime pretty much lined up slightly under their career year... Basically everything dropped a few points so you can go off career year, plus the 3 year prime only allows you go do consecutive years so if you had a great year and it was 1 or 2 years apart from a great stretch you can't include it without adding the years that might not be considered so good...

 

[wlk3]

It is about matchups not just numbers. If it was about numbers I would of won the last matchup. Mainly bc I go for numbers and hope for good matchups

Dirk and Lebron are hard matchups. Kidd isnt a scorer, Tony's weakness is defensive but Kidd isnt a threat. Then you have the overrated Russell. A good team player, great rebounder, great passer, and a defensive guy.

And it helps him have 3 of the best 3 point shooters too. Allen, Curry, and Billups. And think what some people dont realize back in the day those great perimeter defenders didmt have to guard the 3. Makes it 10x easier IMO

Parker has to guard a guy who averaged 8.7 assists for a career 10 during his prime... Are you insinuating you don't have to guard a guy like that... A guy who posts up smaller guards... You know like you kept saying Magic would do vs an all time great defender... And matchups... How is it Dirk is this huge mismatch on 1 end but then ignores the fact that he has 0 chance at holding somebody like Barkley on the other end...

Simply put... I agree matchups is what it's about... And he has finesse players who shoot jumpers, don't play D, and don't rebound... I own the paint and it's not even close...

 

[Shanemansj13]

Parker has to guard a guy who averaged 8.7 assists for a career 10 during his prime... Are you insinuating you don't have to guard a guy like that... A guy who posts up smaller guards... You know like you kept saying Magic would do vs an all time great defender... And matchups... How is it Dirk is this huge mismatch on 1 end but then ignores the fact that he has 0 chance at holding somebody like Barkley on the other end...

Simply put... I agree matchups is what it's about... And he has finesse players who shoot jumpers, don't play D, and don't rebound... I own the paint and it's not even close...

You have great points. I felt the same way about our matchup. Wade, Pierce, and KD are all athletic guys that are physical and KD with his length would dominate at the 3. I agree about your matchup, but then we go back to Lebron playing point, kinda like Magic. All I know the last 2 matchups all are debatable. I actually had you winning this matchup at 1st but then I looked at Lebron and couldn't help to think he would be unstoppable.

It was a hard decision.

 

[Shanemansj13]

I have one question. Wade vs Hondo? No disrespect to Hondo. I think Wade wins 9/10.

 

[SJ76]

IMO.. and I know I high jacked this thread so I apologize that I had to "defend myself" on it.


The guards here are pretty dam close to a wash, but I give the edge with Chauncey Billups. SF's go to Ritz. PF's are dam close to. Barkley barely > Dirk - to me, Dirk is a jump shooter, slow and not a huge rebounder... but can get his shot off and Barkley will do his thing in the paint and get boards. Kemp > Webber and that's barely so the PF's are a wash. Center's are pretty dam close to a wash too. So the difference for me is at SF.

 

[SJ76]

It is really about match ups... If it wasn't 24 minutes each squad.. then Jordan and Chamberlain would pretty dam tough to stop.

 

[Shanemansj13]

I think Kareem is a bigger mismatch than people think. I think the Barkley vs Dirk is tough bc Barkley will do his thing but no one can guard Dirk with his length and shot. Plus he has 6 inches on Barkley, so it is even. Lebron has a huge advantage.
Hondo will get his, but Allen would wear him down with his active legs and his constant movement even with the rest. Plus the guy never had to defend the 3. And backups are pretty even IMO. So then we go back to Lebron doing his thing.

 

[SJ76]

I think the Barkley vs Dirk is tough bc Barkley will do his thing but no one
can guard Dirk with his length and shot. Plus he has 6 inches on Barkley, so it
is even.

Only thing I was thinking was that Dirk's shot is not as high as % as Barkley and Dirk's D isn't all that. Can't live and die by the 3, no matter how good of a shooter you are. That's why I gave a slight edge to Sir Chuck.

I think the center's in this group will play D, board and hit some shots. No one is dominating the other

 

[Shanemansj13]

Only thing I was thinking was that Dirk's shot is not as high as % as Barkley and Dirk's D isn't all that. Can't live and die by the 3, no matter how good of a shooter you are. That's why I gave a slight edge to Sir Chuck.

I think the center's in this group will play D, board and hit some shots. No one is dominating the other

But he can still post up and his mid-range is insane, especially when he was in his prime. Considering he isnt the first option he will have his open shots.

 

[UK Cowboy]

I have one question. Wade vs Hondo? No disrespect to Hondo. I think Wade wins 9/10.

I'd take Hondo over Wade all day

 

[SJ76]

But he can still post up and his mid-range is insane, especially when he was
in his prime. Considering he isnt the first option he will have his open shots.

True.. But Barkley is quick enough to front Dirk and you know Sir Chuck is going to shove him around. It would be an interesting match up.

 

[wlk3]

Only thing I was thinking was that Dirk's shot is not as high as % as Barkley and Dirk's D isn't all that. Can't live and die by the 3, no matter how good of a shooter you are. That's why I gave a slight edge to Sir Chuck.

I think the center's in this group will play D, board and hit some shots. No one is dominating the other

Are you kidding me...? KAJ is not playing D, grabbing boards and hitting some shots... He's the #1 scorer all time and nobody is close... His shot is the most unstoppable shot in NBA history... What are you talking about... Grant Hill is better than Rick Barry...? Are we in America...?

 

[SJ76]

I think those 2 centers would both get theirs. I don't think 1 would dominate the other. Kareem played like 50 years didn't he? It's close man.

Rick Barry and Grant Hill are closer than the LBJ and whoever else you threw at him. But Hill was a helluva athlete in his prime. Barry was a good ball player too, but the LBJ and Hill vs. your SF's was the lock for me. Just my opinion.

 

[wlk3]

Shane Hondo played 45 minutes a game for 2 straight years...

Havlicek was drafted by both the Celtics and the NFL's Cleveland Browns in 1962. After competing briefly as a wide receiver in the Browns' training camp that year, he focused his energies on playing for the Celtics, with head coach Red Auerbach later describing him as the "guts of the team." He was also known for his stamina, with competitors saying that it was a challenge just to keep up with him.

I could go on but it all says the same stuff... The thing is, without a 3pt line you won't believe he's a 3pt shooter... And without watching old film and applying it to modern techniques in both basketball training and weight training you won't respect him... Wade is nowhere near Hondo...

 

[wlk3]

I think those 2 centers would both get theirs. I don't think 1 would dominate the other. Kareem played like 50 years didn't he? It's close man.

Rick Barry and Grant Hill are closer than the LBJ and whoever else you threw at him. But Hill was a helluva athlete in his prime. Barry was a good ball player too, but the LBJ and Hill vs. your SF's was the lock for me. Just my opinion.

Hahaha... Bernard King is a however the hell I threw out there...? The man averaged 32 for a season...

 

[SJ76]

I guess I am taking into account the athletes today versus the athletes back then. It wasn't easy. And I couldn't remember who your SF was.. Not that I hadn't ever heard of him.

Trying to work a bit too. haha. I'll be out for awhile, I have a lunch meeting.