2014 UDFAs

[tpaulus_2]

Ok, so here is where I am finally going to give you some grief. First let me say that I also love this signing. No doubt it's the measurable that make you feel that way. So why have you always been so quick to piss on Chris Greenwood?

Other than the length of his arms Greenwood topped Couplin in pretty much every relevant measurable from their pro days. It was specifically the pro day results you have always attempted to discount the value of as compared to combine results for years on these boards. So it's a level playing field here then.

Greenwood is faster and has an even bigger vertical. He missed his entire first year with injury and then spent two years with an idiot coaching staff who refused to play the younger guys even when the season was over. Injury forced them to play him last year and he looked good. If there is a DB on the roster poised to make a big jump in value this year it will be Greenwood over Slay IMO. BTW..Greenwood's measurables top Slay's in the major categories as well.

Lots of good points about Greenwood there- particularly agree about the "idiot coaching staff" refusing to play younger guys.

One counter-point about Greenwood vs. Couplin, though, is that Couplin played at a much higher level of competition, so his adjustment to the pro game shouldn't be as difficult as Greenwood's was.

Just imagine opening next season with Slay and Greenwood on the outside with Couplin at FS and Quin at SS... that's one highly athletic secondary. We'd have one of the fastest, most athletic pairs of CBs, and basically two more CBs who can tackle playing safety...

 

[tpaulus_2]

Fwiw at CB I think Houston is now a goner. We already have Bentley who is under 6'0" and now that we drafted Lawson, we have a trio of sub-six-footers on the roster. A pair is fine for the nickel and dime roles, but you really don't want short guys lining up on the outside. I think Houston becomes a post-June 1st cut and we draft another tall, athletic CB to take his place next year. I see our ideal CB depth chart as having 4 guys who are 6'+ to man the outside (Slay, Greenwood, Green, and ??), and two smaller, more stout, slot CBs (Bentley and Lawson).

On the whole I absolutely expect our secondary to be better this year than it was last season. We have a lot of young talent and finally have a coaching staff who isn't too proud to play the guys the GM has picked for them. I think Schwartz's pride kept a lot of young talent on the bench because they weren't the guys he wanted, so he refused to play them out of sheer asshole-ed-ness...

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

FYI, Jonte Green is 5' 10 1/2" not 6', unless he had surgery in Russia to lengthen his legs.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Ok, so here is where I am finally going to give you some grief. First let me say that I also love this signing. No doubt it's the measurable that make you feel that way. So why have you always been so quick to piss on Chris Greenwood?

Other than the length of his arms Greenwood topped Couplin in pretty much every relevant measurable from their pro days. It was specifically the pro day results you have always attempted to discount the value of as compared to combine results for years on these boards. So it's a level playing field here then.

Greenwood is faster and has an even bigger vertical. He missed his entire first year with injury and then spent two years with an idiot coaching staff who refused to play the younger guys even when the season was over. Injury forced them to play him last year and he looked good.

I can answer this easily for you. Greenwood played in the MIAA, which is basically high school football (Albion's enrollment -- 1350 students). The level of competition he played against, as well as the coaching and facilities to improve as a player is almost non-existent in that league. Remember, I went to a MIAA school -- the facilities for athletes weren't even on par with my high school at the college I went to (i'm talking about the weight room, training room, audio/video room, etc.) Now I will say -- Albion did have a better weight room and some of the facilities were better, but it is laughable compared to what is offered at bigger colleges.

Also -- these two players play completely different positions. Coplin is a safety. He isn't being asked to play man coverage on NFL WR's. IMO -- the hardest position in the NFL to play defensively is CB. To try and make the jump from MIAA to the NFL is astronomical in terms of talent. The MIAA has had exactly one guy drafted prior to Greenwood and it was like 60 years ago.

If Greenwood was drafted as a safety -- I would have given him a small shot at being successful on the Lions. As a CB though -- there is just way too much for him to try and pick up, as well as get acclimated to.

If there is a DB on the roster poised to make a big jump in value this year it will be Greenwood over Slay IMO. BTW..Greenwood's measurables top Slay's in the major categories as well

I respect your opinion, but I personally disagree. Slay's progress is so much more advanced than Greenwood, because of the coaching he received in college, as well as the facilities and trainers he had at his disposal. If you go and look at the individual position coaches at school's in the MIAA, you will see the majority of the time -- it is a former player/student, that is finishing up their degree but are out of eligibility. As they graduate, another person takes over the role. These aren't guys whose career is spent being a position coach and getting the most out of their players.

 

[gandydancer]

I respect your opinion, but I personally disagree. Slay's progress is so much more advanced than Greenwood, because of the coaching he received in college, as well as the facilities and trainers he had at his disposal. If you go and look at the individual position coaches at school's in the MIAA, you will see the majority of the time -- it is a former player/student, that is finishing up their degree but are out of eligibility. As they graduate, another person takes over the role. These aren't guys whose career is spent being a position coach and getting the most out of their players.

I need to see what the kid does with this staff. I was ready to write the trio off. He now has world class facilities and for sure better coaching than college and with out a doubt last year. we will see if Austin is worth his salt.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I need to see what the kid does with this staff. I was ready to write the trio off. He now has world class facilities and for sure better coaching than college and with out a doubt last year. we will see if Austin is worth his salt.

Absolutely agree. With the college Greenwood came out of -- I don't think Mayhew can use the "if they don't get it by the 3rd year, they never will" approach. He started at an extreme disadvantage to the other CBs drafted with him and after him. He also missed time with an injury and was picked up by another team, missing out on more time with Detroit's coaches.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Greenwood played in the MIAA, which is basically high school football (Albion's enrollment -- 1350 students). The level of competition he played against, as well as the coaching and facilities to improve as a player is almost non-existent in that league.

He was dominant enough against that level of competition to be drafted into the NFL. I don't care what the enrollment size of the school he played at was. It's completely irrelevant. I would agree that the coaching he got there would "likely" be below that you would expect at the bigger schools, William & Mary not falling into that category however. But the facilities portion of your answer?? Come on man. It's the dedication the player has to the weight room that matters, not the square footage of the building. I assure you that a dedicated player can get just as strong at Albion as they can even at Alabama. Pretty sure that Albion's facility doesn't consist of an old Schwinn propped up on 2x4's and a bunch of farm tires for guys to flip over.

Also -- these two players play completely different positions. Coplin is a safety.

Huh? Were you assuming I did not know this? I see no connection whatsoever to the ability of either to develop into contributors based on their physical tools. What position they play and what you consider to be amongst the most difficult adjustments once again being irrelevant. Both need to be coached up and both should get that if this new D coordinator is as good as advertised in doing just that.

To try and make the jump from MIAA to the NFL is astronomical in terms of talent. The MIAA has had exactly one guy drafted prior to Greenwood and it was like 60 years ago.

The CAA had exactly zero players drafted this weekend. Nor does it matter how many prior players from the MIAA have been drafted or are in the NFL. Chris Greenwood is, he is very physically gifted and shown he can play in the league once he was finally put on the field by a shit coaching staff who otherwise was content to play guys where the ceiling was already known.

Slay's progress is so much more advanced than Greenwood, because of the coaching he received in college, as well as the facilities and trainers he had at his disposal.

I'm trying to be polite here but absolutely none of that showed, none. Slay looked lost and horrible. He got better as the year progressed because he was getting all the reps. Greenwood got almost none because the coaching staff was too damn stupid to even bother to evaluate the younger talent they have with them on the field. When they did Greenwood showed he had skills and potential.

It's that potential that makes him so intriguing as a player. The same potential you like in Couplin. I was thrilled to hear Austin's early evaluations of his players where he pointed out that he was impressed with Greenwood. Hopefully that means he wants to take a really good look to see what he's got there because he has every physical tool to compete, and compete at a high level in this league. Exactly what we all want out of Couplin. I'll never understand why you think so little of Greenwood other than you having built a distaste for him from the e-fight over him being referred to as potentially one of the better pure athletes in the NFL. His measurable would absolutely put him in that group. For all the freaks you have referenced that play in this league 4.3 speed and a 43" vertical is not a large group of players.

 

[tpaulus_2]

I'm with Dr. Eviler on Greenwood. He's going to be a starting CB by season's end, imo.

 

[tpaulus_2]

FYI, Jonte Green is 5' 10 1/2" not 6', unless he had surgery in Russia to lengthen his legs.

Jonte Green, CB for the Detroit Lions at NFL.com

Jonte Green - Detroit Lions - 2014 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com

Jonte Green - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I think you got some bad intel somewhere on his height? All I've ever seen is 6'0", which was written about a bit when we drafted him and the 6'1"/6'2" (depending on your source) Greenwood in the same draft. The NFL.com info is coming directly from the combine measurements, generally, and those are quite accurate numbers.

 

[tpaulus_2]

I can answer this easily for you. Greenwood played in the MIAA, which is basically high school football (Albion's enrollment -- 1350 students). The level of competition he played against, as well as the coaching and facilities to improve as a player is almost non-existent in that league. Remember, I went to a MIAA school -- the facilities for athletes weren't even on par with my high school at the college I went to (i'm talking about the weight room, training room, audio/video room, etc.) Now I will say -- Albion did have a better weight room and some of the facilities were better, but it is laughable compared to what is offered at bigger colleges.

Also -- these two players play completely different positions. Coplin is a safety. He isn't being asked to play man coverage on NFL WR's. IMO -- the hardest position in the NFL to play defensively is CB. To try and make the jump from MIAA to the NFL is astronomical in terms of talent. The MIAA has had exactly one guy drafted prior to Greenwood and it was like 60 years ago.

If Greenwood was drafted as a safety -- I would have given him a small shot at being successful on the Lions. As a CB though -- there is just way too much for him to try and pick up, as well as get acclimated to.



I respect your opinion, but I personally disagree. Slay's progress is so much more advanced than Greenwood, because of the coaching he received in college, as well as the facilities and trainers he had at his disposal. If you go and look at the individual position coaches at school's in the MIAA, you will see the majority of the time -- it is a former player/student, that is finishing up their degree but are out of eligibility. As they graduate, another person takes over the role. These aren't guys whose career is spent being a position coach and getting the most out of their players.

So what I'm getting here is that it's not about the talent or skill level that a player possesses, nor is it about the coaching they receive at the NFL level, but rather it's all about the coaching they received in college.

Are you saying that NFL coaches can't turn a superior physical specimen into a decent player over time if he didn't go to a high enough level college?

 

[tpaulus_2]

He was dominant enough against that level of competition to be drafted into the NFL. I don't care what the enrollment size of the school he played at was. It's completely irrelevant. I would agree that the coaching he got there would "likely" be below that you would expect at the bigger schools, William & Mary not falling into that category however. But the facilities portion of your answer?? Come on man. It's the dedication the player has to the weight room that matters, not the square footage of the building. I assure you that a dedicated player can get just as strong at Albion as they can even at Alabama. Pretty sure that Albion's facility doesn't consist of an old Schwinn propped up on 2x4's and a bunch of farm tires for guys to flip over.

Huh? Were you assuming I did not know this? I see no connection whatsoever to the ability of either to develop into contributors based on their physical tools. What position they play and what you consider to be amongst the most difficult adjustments once again being irrelevant. Both need to be coached up and both should get that if this new D coordinator is as good as advertised in doing just that.


The CAA had exactly zero players drafted this weekend. Nor does it matter how many prior players from the MIAA have been drafted or are in the NFL. Chris Greenwood is, he is very physically gifted and shown he can play in the league once he was finally put on the field by a shit coaching staff who otherwise was content to play guys where the ceiling was already known.

I'm trying to be polite here but absolutely none of that showed, none. Slay looked lost and horrible. He got better as the year progressed because he was getting all the reps. Greenwood got almost none because the coaching staff was too damn stupid to even bother to evaluate the younger talent they have with them on the field. When they did Greenwood showed he had skills and potential.

It's that potential that makes him so intriguing as a player. The same potential you like in Couplin. I was thrilled to hear Austin's early evaluations of his players where he pointed out that he was impressed with Greenwood. Hopefully that means he wants to take a really good look to see what he's got there because he has every physical tool to compete, and compete at a high level in this league. Exactly what we all want out of Couplin. I'll never understand why you think so little of Greenwood other than you having built a distaste for him from the e-fight over him being referred to as potentially one of the better pure athletes in the NFL. His measurable would absolutely put him in that group. For all the freaks you have referenced that play in this league 4.3 speed and a 43" vertical is not a large group of players.

Lol, that's damn fucking close to my high school's weight room...

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

Jonte Green, CB for the Detroit Lions at NFL.com

Jonte Green - Detroit Lions - 2014 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com

Jonte Green - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I think you got some bad intel somewhere on his height? All I've ever seen is 6'0", which was written about a bit when we drafted him and the 6'1"/6'2" (depending on your source) Greenwood in the same draft. The NFL.com info is coming directly from the combine measurements, generally, and those are quite accurate numbers.

probably so, getting bad intel..
Jonte Green | New Mexico State, CB : 2012 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile
Height:[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][SIZE=-1] 5-11[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Weight:[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][SIZE=-1] 191[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

Jonte Green, CB, New Mexico State, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com
Height/Weight: 5-11 / 191 lbs.

that's what I had on him but I got it, potatoe, potato

 

[tpaulus_2]

He looks the part of 6'0". Seeing him on the sidelines next to players like Houston (5'11") and Bentley (5'10") you definitely notice the difference.

 

[Old Lion]

Never liked the Greenwood pick from the moment they announced it. There is probably a reason for him being shipped back to Detroit after Dallas picked him up. Dallas has a putrid secondary and they did not even think he was worth stashing.


Not crazy about the Lawson pick either. I think the kid from Maine would have been better. Heck even Roberson.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

He was dominant enough against that level of competition to be drafted into the NFL. I don't care what the enrollment size of the school he played at was. It's completely irrelevant. I would agree that the coaching he got there would "likely" be below that you would expect at the bigger schools, William & Mary not falling into that category however. But the facilities portion of your answer?? Come on man. It's the dedication the player has to the weight room that matters, not the square footage of the building. I assure you that a dedicated player can get just as strong at Albion as they can even at Alabama. Pretty sure that Albion's facility doesn't consist of an old Schwinn propped up on 2x4's and a bunch of farm tires for guys to flip over.

I'm not talking about square footage, I'm talking about the professional training given to athletes at D-1 and D-2 schools. There is no such thing as a strength and conditioning coach in the overwhelming majority of D-3 schools. I would wager only the truly elite programs in D-3 have something along those lines and that doesn't consist of schools in the MIAA.

While you don't seem to think William and Mary is a program that offers the perks of major schools -- they have a strength and condition coach that has been at the school for 27 years. He is also heads their program dedicated to help build up athlete's speed.

I assure you that a dedicated player can get just as strong at Albion as they can even at Alabama.

If you are talking about strictly bench press, squats and the such. I agree, to an extent. It is the specified programs athletes are put on by their strength and conditioning coaches at big colleges where they have the biggest advantages. They also have nutritionists who will break down the foods you should eat and what not to eat to put on weight or take it off. They have individual programs and exercises for each position group. They have state of the art facilities with every piece of equipment known to man and a staff of trainers under the strength and conditioning coach putting you through your lifting program. Everything is broken down for you, to the amount of reps and length of your breaks in between sets.

If coaching and specialized programs didn't give athletes an advantage. Schools wouldn't pay big money to these guys to handle their athletes. These are not options at D-3 schools. They do not have the funding for these type of things. If you want to see a D-3 football game -- it cost anywhere between 3-5 dollars. It is high school football. These players don't have scholarships -- they have financial aid and loans to pay off when they are done with school. They don't have a dinner table set up for the football team during the season -- they have a cafeteria card and eat the same food every other student is eating at the same times.

The advantages of playing at a bigger school are enormous.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I'm trying to be polite here but absolutely none of that showed, none. Slay looked lost and horrible. He got better as the year progressed because he was getting all the reps. Greenwood got almost none because the coaching staff was too damn stupid to even bother to evaluate the younger talent they have with them on the field. When they did Greenwood showed he had skills and potential.

So you honestly believe that Schwartz -- with his job on the line said, nope, I'm not going to play Greenwood? Schwartz and Cunningham got to see Greenwood first hand every day at practice -- I believe they put the players on the field, which they felt gave the team the best opportunity to win.

I have no doubt Greenwood has the physical skills to be a quality CB. It takes more than physical skills to be a quality CB though. You have to have an understanding of the complexities of the position at the NFL level. You have to be mirror some of the greatest athletes on the planet. You have to completely understand your responsibilities on a play to play basis.

I'm not saying he can't or won't have a shot at turning into a quality CB -- I am just saying he is behind on the learning curve and it depends on how quickly he picks up the coaching and is able to use it on the field. That is why I said -- When Mayhew made the comment on how if you don't get it by the 3rd year as a CB, you aren't ever going to get it -- Greenwood shouldn't fall into that category, as he is going to need more coaching and more practice time than any player -- and he missed out on a lot of practice time with his injury and then missed training camp again, where he would have had a lot of reps.

Lastly -- I'd be willing to make a friendly wager that not only will Slay be a starter this year, but will one of the better CBs on our roster, if not the best CB on the roster. I also don't think Greenwood will see much playing time at all, unless there is a string of injuries again.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I'll never understand why you think so little of Greenwood other than you having built a distaste for him from the e-fight over him being referred to as potentially one of the better pure athletes in the NFL.

I don't have anything against Greenwood. I played in the MIAA and know from my own personal experience the quality of competition he faced. That is the only reason I have been opinionated about the type of programs and coaching available to athletes at the D-3 level.

To put it in perspective -- My roommate transferred in at the same time I did. He originally went to Grand Valley State to play football. In 2 years, he never dressed for a game, so he transferred. His first year on the team -- he started at safety, led the team in tackles and finished with 11 interceptions, which was the 2nd most in the nation for D-3 schools. He was named 2nd team all-american for D-3 schools.

So he wasn't good enough to even dress for a D-2 school, but ended up making an all-american team on a D-3 team. Granted, I'm sure he is an extreme example, as everything just seemed to go his way that year, and every ball seemed to bounce right to him. But the talent jump just from D-3 to D-2 is huge. The talent jump from D-3 to the NFL is absolutely ridiculous.

That is the main reason I have said his learning curve should be a lot longer than some of the guys drafted at the same position. He didn't have the luxury of facing elite athletes in practice on a day to day basis in college. He was facing kids who were going to college to get a degree and each one of them were paying their own way -- playing football just let them extend their high school career a couple years longer.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Based on the overwhelming amount of proof you have offered we should immediately cut Greenwood and Couplin. They have both faced high school level competition and making the jump to the NFL is simply not possible.

Speaking of jumps, did you know that the best vertical posted at the combine this year was a full inch below that of Greenwood. It's too bad that he is so damn slow though. Two people were faster than him. It's even worse for Couplin. He couldn't even put up the best broad jump, instead all he could do is tie for first and then embarrassed himself with a vertical jump that tied him for second best.

It's too bad neither had nutritionists and strength and conditioning coaches to work with in college. They could have been taught how to run faster, jump higher, and be more explosive if they had.

Not sure what the Lions saw/see in either of them but at least we aren't the Colts. They offered a contract to a guy who has never even played football based solely on his athletic ability. What a bunch of dumbasses they must be.

 

[gandydancer]

Lol, that's damn fucking close to my high school's weight room...

What are you talking aboot. You can't flip tires in the Soo. Them fuckers are frozen to the ground 9 months a year.

 

[gandydancer]

Come on man. It's the dedication the player has to the weight room that matters, not the square footage of the building. I assure you that a dedicated player can get just as strong at Albion as they can even at Alabama. Pretty sure that Albion's facility doesn't consist of an old Schwinn propped up on 2x4's and a bunch of farm tires for guys to flip over.

.

My H.S. weight room was bigger than most local gyms. I moved to Tawas and started lifting with Chief602 at the H.S. First time I saw it. I asked where the rest of it was?