2013 HOF Ballot

[calsnowskier]

2013 is going to be a MASSIVE year in HOF voting.

The following are eligible...

Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Lee Smith
Craig Biggio
Kenny Lofton
Jeff Bagwell
Larry Walker
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Jack Morris
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Don Mattingly
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Bernie Williams
Sammy Sosa
Curt Schilling
Jose Mesa
Roberto Hernandez
David Wells
Steve Finley
Mike Stanton
Shawn Green
Bob Wickman
Julio Franco
Sandy Alomar
Jeff Cirillo
Mike Myers
Tony Batista
Royce Clayton
Steve Kline
Jeff Conine
Aaron Sele
Ryan Klesko
Preston Wilson
Woody Williams
Reggie Sanders
Antonio Alfonseca
Mike Lieberthal
Damian Miller
Jaret Wright
Todd Walker

While I like 9 of them for the Hall, I am willing to hold off on the big two as a 1-year protest, so I only have 7 on my ballot...

Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Lee Smith
Craig Biggio
Kenny Lofton

Of course, Smith and Lofton HAVE to go in wearing a Giants cap, or they lose my vote...

 

[msgkings322]

2013 is going to be a MASSIVE year in HOF voting.

The following are eligible...

Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Lee Smith
Craig Biggio
Kenny Lofton
Jeff Bagwell
Larry Walker
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Jack Morris
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Don Mattingly
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Bernie Williams
Sammy Sosa
Curt Schilling
Jose Mesa
Roberto Hernandez
David Wells
Steve Finley
Mike Stanton
Shawn Green
Bob Wickman
Julio Franco
Sandy Alomar
Jeff Cirillo
Mike Myers
Tony Batista
Royce Clayton
Steve Kline
Jeff Conine
Aaron Sele
Ryan Klesko
Preston Wilson
Woody Williams
Reggie Sanders
Antonio Alfonseca
Mike Lieberthal
Damian Miller
Jaret Wright
Todd Walker

While I like 9 of them for the Hall, I am willing to hold off on the big two as a 1-year protest, so I only have 7 on my ballot...

Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Lee Smith
Craig Biggio
Kenny Lofton

Of course, Smith and Lofton HAVE to go in wearing a Giants cap, or they lose my vote...

What about Klesko?

I don't think it's up to the player which cap he wears.

Why doesn't McGwire have to wait a year also?

I'm on the fence on Trammell and Lofton, I prefer fewer getting in to the HOF in general. I'm even on the fence re McGwire.

I'd also consider Morris and Murphy, and I think Piazza is a lock. Bagwell is worthy too.

 

[calsnowskier]

What about Klesko?

I don't think it's up to the player which cap he wears.

Why doesn't McGwire have to wait a year also?

I'm on the fence on Trammell and Lofton, I prefer fewer getting in to the HOF in general. I'm even on the fence re McGwire.

I'd also consider Morris and Murphy, and I think Piazza is a lock. Bagwell is worthy too.

McGwire served his "one-year protest" years ago. He has been on my ballot ever since.

I am on the fence with Trammell as well. When the fence is shaken, though, he falls IN instead of OUT. Baggs falls OUT. But the possibility of my vote changing on him is a distinct possibility. He did, after all, spend a good portion of his career in the Astrodome...

I think Lofton belongs in. If not for Ricky, he would have been the best lead-off guy of his generation. He just happened to play at the same time as one of the greatest players ever (IMHO). I understand that he is not a slam-dunk, though.

 

[msgkings322]

McGwire served his "one-year protest" years ago. He has been on my ballot ever since.

I am on the fence with Trammell as well. When the fence is shaken, though, he falls IN instead of OUT. Baggs falls OUT. But the possibility of my vote changing on him is a distinct possibility. He did, after all, spend a good portion of his career in the Astrodome...

I think Lofton belongs in. If not for Ricky, he would have been the best lead-off guy of his generation. He just happened to play at the same time as one of the greatest players ever (IMHO). I understand that he is not a slam-dunk, though.

All valid points. And I agree Ricky is one of the best ever, not quite Ruth/Bonds level but next tier down.

 

[calsnowskier]

What about Klesko?

I don't think it's up to the player which cap he wears.

Why doesn't McGwire have to wait a year also?

I'm on the fence on Trammell and Lofton, I prefer fewer getting in to the HOF in general. I'm even on the fence re McGwire.

I'd also consider Morris and Murphy, and I think Piazza is a lock. Bagwell is worthy too.

The player no longer has the FINAL say as to their cap. Thanks Wade Boggs.

The player influences the decision, but the HOF committee has final say. Boggs wanted to go in wearing the Rays cap but the committee said "BS, you get the Sox or the Spanks". Winfield and Jackson also made a mockery of the tradition (Winfield HATED Steinbrenner, so he went with SD while Jackson wanted to be added to the center field shrine at Yankee Stadium, so he picked the Spanks over the A's).

Kent, McGwire, Piazza, Smith, Griffey, and Clemens all will have interesting stories behind their hat selections in the coming years should they make it.

 

[calsnowskier]

All valid points. And I agree Ricky is one of the best ever, not quite Ruth/Bonds level but next tier down.

So who IS in the Ruth/Bonds level?

Ruth
Bonds
Mays
Williams


Aaron?
Mantle?
Ripkin?
Rodriguez?
Maddux?
Johnson?
Kofax?
Kent?

 

[CameronFrye]

McGwire served his "one-year protest" years ago. He has been on my ballot ever since.

I am on the fence with Trammell as well. When the fence is shaken, though, he falls IN instead of OUT. Baggs falls OUT. But the possibility of my vote changing on him is a distinct possibility. He did, after all, spend a good portion of his career in the Astrodome...

I think Lofton belongs in. If not for Ricky, he would have been the best lead-off guy of his generation. He just happened to play at the same time as one of the greatest players ever (IMHO). I understand that he is not a slam-dunk, though.

McGwire will never be on my ballot. He was a one-dimensional player and not even a very interesting one at that. I think eventually he will be voted in, but that won't change my opinion of him.

Trammell on the other hand, is more of a Hall of Fame guy to me than McGwire will ever be. Trammell's biggest weakness was that he played at the same time as Ozzie Smith. While Trammell was not Ozzie's equal defensively, he was in the conversation. Offensively, Ozzie could not hold Trammell's jock. Trammell will never get into the Hall, and it's a shame.

Piazza may not have been caught using roids, but was oft-mentioned in the same breath as guys who were caught. There is just too much suspicion about him for me to believe that he will be a first-ballot guy. I personally would vote for him because as we all know, I think steroids are awesome and players should take them like Pez. (Yes, it is a slight exaggeration, but I think he belongs).

Tim Raines >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenny Lofton.

Biggio belongs in the Hall of Really Good. Not the hall of Fame.

Bonds and Clemens will eventually get in.

I hate the DH and think it should be abolished. But if any DH should ever get in, it should be Edgar.

I do not believe that anyone else on the list has the qualifications.

 

[msgkings322]

So who IS in the Ruth/Bonds level?

Ruth
Bonds
Mays
Williams


Aaron?
Mantle?
Ripkin?
Rodriguez?
Maddux?
Johnson?
Kofax?
Kent?

I think we had this debate earlier, about best offensive players ever. I have a separate list for best pitchers.

The 4 you mentioned are pretty much consensus Mt Rushmore of the sport. If we are going Ruthian tier I think you can add Aaron, Gehrig, Wagner, Mantle, Cobb and maybe a couple others like ARod and Pujols projecting their careers.

Next tier down would be Ricky, Musial, Griffey, Ripken, Morgan, Schmidt, DiMaggio, Jeter, Brett, Foxx, Manny, and others.

Also: Kent? Really?

 

[calsnowskier]

I think we had this debate earlier, about best offensive players ever. I have a separate list for best pitchers.

The 4 you mentioned are pretty much consensus Mt Rushmore of the sport. If we are going Ruthian tier I think you can add Aaron, Gehrig, Wagner, Mantle, Cobb and maybe a couple others like ARod and Pujols projecting their careers.

Next tier down would be Ricky, Musial, Griffey, Ripken, Morgan, Schmidt, DiMaggio, Jeter, Brett, Foxx, Manny, and others.

Also: Kent? Really?

Greatest offensive 2B EVER. By a good margin. If he were an OF, than he would not warrant inclusion.

 

[calsnowskier]

McGwire will never be on my ballot. He was a one-dimensional player and not even a very interesting one at that. I think eventually he will be voted in, but that won't change my opinion of him.

Trammell on the other hand, is more of a Hall of Fame guy to me than McGwire will ever be. Trammell's biggest weakness was that he played at the same time as Ozzie Smith. While Trammell was not Ozzie's equal defensively, he was in the conversation. Offensively, Ozzie could not hold Trammell's jock. Trammell will never get into the Hall, and it's a shame.

Piazza may not have been caught using roids, but was oft-mentioned in the same breath as guys who were caught. There is just too much suspicion about him for me to believe that he will be a first-ballot guy. I personally would vote for him because as we all know, I think steroids are awesome and players should take them like Pez. (Yes, it is a slight exaggeration, but I think he belongs).

Tim Raines >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenny Lofton.

Biggio belongs in the Hall of Really Good. Not the hall of Fame.

Bonds and Clemens will eventually get in.

I hate the DH and think it should be abolished. But if any DH should ever get in, it should be Edgar.

I do not believe that anyone else on the list has the qualifications.

I cannot argue against any of your points. I agree with most of them. I just have a slightly different line-in-the-sand for a few of the guys.

 

[msgkings322]

Greatest offensive 2B EVER. By a good margin. If he were an OF, than he would not warrant inclusion.

I might agree (Morgan?) but the 'pantheon discussion' doesn't care about position. It's production. You can't seriously have been asking if Kent was Ruth/Bonds level.

 

[tzill]

I think we had this debate earlier, about best offensive players ever. I have a separate list for best pitchers.

The 4 you mentioned are pretty much consensus Mt Rushmore of the sport. If we are going Ruthian tier I think you can add Aaron, Gehrig, Wagner, Mantle, Cobb and maybe a couple others like ARod and Pujols projecting their careers.

Next tier down would be Ricky, Musial, Griffey, Ripken, Morgan, Schmidt, DiMaggio, Jeter, Brett, Foxx, Manny, and others.

Also: Kent? Really?

I think the Mt Rushmore should be:

Ruth, Bonds, Mays, Cobb. Probably in that order.

The next tier down, in no particular order:

Aaron, Wagner, Speaker, Williams, Musial.

Honorable mention:

Hornsby, Collins, Gehrig, Mantle.

ARod might end up in the HM category when it's all said and done. None of the other guys you mention rate in the top 15 or so.

Also, nobody mentioned Frank Robinson and Mel Ott, both of whom are ahead of everyone else.

 

[msgkings322]

Greatest offensive 2B EVER. By a good margin. If he were an OF, than he would not warrant inclusion.

Yeah I just messed around on Baseball Reference, Morgan >>>> Kent

Career WAR 103.5 vs 59.4, but over a few more seasons granted

From 1972-6 his WARs were 10, 9.9, 9.1, 12 (!), 10
Kent's best were 7.9 in 2000 and 6.6 in 2002.

Just offense? Kent's oWARs in those years were 7.8 and 6.3
Morgan's from 72-76? 9.2, 8.9, 8.5, 10.3, 9.9

2 MVPs vs 1 for Kent

Kent's raw stats are inflated from playing in the higher offense era, and his WAR is less from playing so much at 1B where his hitting wasn't much better than average.

 

[tzill]

Greatest offensive 2B EVER. By a good margin. If he were an OF, than he would not warrant inclusion.

Sorry, Cal, but you're dead wrong. Both Hornsby and Collins were better by quite a bit. You could even make an argument for Nap Lajoie being better as well.

As it is, Morgan is no better than third all time.

 

[msgkings322]

I think the Mt Rushmore should be:

Ruth, Bonds, Mays, Cobb. Probably in that order.

The next tier down, in no particular order:

Aaron, Wagner, Speaker, Williams, Musial.

Honorable mention:

Hornsby, Collins, Gehrig, Mantle.

ARod might end up in the HM category when it's all said and done. None of the other guys you mention rate in the top 15 or so.

Also, nobody mentioned Frank Robinson and Mel Ott, both of whom are ahead of everyone else.

I did forget Speaker and Collins.

According to all-time leaders in WAR your Mt Rushmore is 'correct'

Career Leaders &amp Records for Wins Above Replacement - Baseball-Reference.com

Williams is only the 11th highest hitter. But he played the shortest career of the top 11. WAR is cumulative so guys like Koufax or Gehrig with shorter careers don't show up as well.

 

[msgkings322]

Sorry, Cal, but you're dead wrong. Both Hornsby and Collins were better by quite a bit. You could even make an argument for Nap Lajoie being better as well.

As it is, Morgan is no better than third all time.

This. I forgot what position those 2 played. Even if you want to exclude ancient history, Morgan was way better than Kent.

 

[tzill]

Just for fun, my greatest players all time by position:

P -- Ruth
C -- Bench
1B -- Musial
2B -- Hornsby
SS -- Wagner
3B -- ARod
LF -- Bonds
CF -- Mays
RF -- Cobb

I think there is only one argument to the above: Schmidt at 3b.

 

[msgkings322]

Just for fun, my greatest players all time by position:

P -- Ruth
C -- Bench
1B -- Musial
2B -- Hornsby
SS -- Wagner
3B -- ARod
LF -- Bonds
CF -- Mays
RF -- Cobb

I think there is only one argument to the above: Schmidt at 3b.

I see what you did there but, FAIL

 

[calsnowskier]

I see what you did there but, FAIL

Best hitting pitcher of all time?

 

[msgkings322]

Best hitting pitcher of all time?

Of THAT there is no doubt.