Series Thread: 1) Miami Heat vs. 2) Boston Celtics

[Manster7588]

reg season he was 2nd in Espn's RPM and raptor he's 2nd as well. Only Jokic ahead. I have him clearly ahead of Jokic due to defensive gap and versatility against certain matchups in playoffs.

Reg season and playoffs total - Tatum is 2nd in WAR (which is like raptor's version of VORP) and he's 2nd only to Jokic.

Raptor advanced stat page you have to look at it on your phone\mobile in order to see the on\off numbers i think. But on web page you can still see the WAR and overall raptor stat that includes box score. I like Raptor's on\off, don't really care for them including box score stats. That's the only reason jokic is ahead of Tatum because of boxscore stats.

You dropped a story to support one argument, now you ignore that same story when it doesn't fit your agenda.

I'll tell you right now, Celtics fan here will distance themselves from you

 

[Kawhi_2_Murray]

You dropped a story to support one argument, now you ignore that same story when it doesn't fit your agenda.

I'll tell you right now, Celtics fan here will distance themselves from you

What story am I ignoring?

I made my case for Tatum as top 2 player on two different site sources. He also is clearly on a better playoff run then jokic ever showed. Jamal Murray was nuggets 2020 leading scorer and assist guy

 

[Tai Chi≈Surfing]

 

[tlance]

But i'm just going by eye test mainly, i know stats only tell so much. I'm just making my point that the stats are backing up my eye test. Tatum was the one who frustrated Durant more then any other defender i thought, i'm also a huge kawhi fan and i noticed that kawhi had major issues with tatum and couldn't score on him. Butler seemed to avoid going at Tatum as well and punished Smart. I've also seen Tatum slow down Luka in a regular season game.

So the way I see it. Brown is a very good\solid defender, while Tatum is an alltime great defender. That's the difference. But maybe i was giving brown too little credit. Tatum\Horford\Smart are all clearly better then Brown defensively though and then you have Rob Williams who was better in reg season, so it's hard to evaluate Brown's defense. Brown is no pushover though.

Durant was swarmed by 3 dudes every time he touched the ball.

Tatum is nothing resembling an “all time great defender”.

You have to stop.

 

[Kawhi_2_Murray]

Durant was swarmed by 3 dudes every time he touched the ball.

Tatum is nothing resembling an “all time great defender”.

You have to stop.

That's what Durant will tell you. In reality he was shook by Tatum.

When Tatum was his primary defender, he had no chance. It wasn't necessary to swarm him.

Tatum's greatness is based off his defense. He's a very very good offensive player but he wouldn't be who he is without his defense, the stats back that up. It's like taking away Tim Duncan defense, that's the special part about his game (and Tatums).

Think scottie pippen with volume scoring and elite 3 point shooting

 

[Tai Chi≈Surfing]

Ooops.
I posted those in the wrong thread.
I'm not gonna bother asking a mod to move it, so I'll repost it in the Dubs/C's thread.

My bad.

 

[tlance]

That's what Durant will tell you. In reality he was shook by Tatum.

When Tatum was his primary defender, he had no chance. It wasn't necessary to swarm him.

Tatum's greatness is based off his defense. He's a very very good offensive player but he wouldn't be who he is without his defense, the stats back that up. It's like taking away Tim Duncan defense, that's the special part about his game (and Tatums).

Think scottie pippen with volume scoring and elite 3 point shooting

Not even close man.

Trying to compare Tatum to Scottie Pippen is insane.

 

[tlance]

That's what Durant will tell you. In reality he was shook by Tatum.

When Tatum was his primary defender, he had no chance. It wasn't necessary to swarm him.

Tatum's greatness is based off his defense. He's a very very good offensive player but he wouldn't be who he is without his defense, the stats back that up. It's like taking away Tim Duncan defense, that's the special part about his game (and Tatums).

Think scottie pippen with volume scoring and elite 3 point shooting

And not at all true about KD.

You have knocked Smart for getting abused by Jimmy Butler, while praising Tatum for shutting down KD.

But, you completely neglect the game plan differences.

Smart was on an island with very limited help against Butler because Boston wanted to stay home on role players and keep them from going off.

Very different story against Brooklyn. KD was quickly doubled every time he caught on his spot near the elbow and he had multiple defenders rallying to the ball when he tried to drive.

The Celtics could not have schemed the 2 stars more differently.

And had Tatum been tasked with the same type of defense against KD, he would have been cooked too.

And those are facts.

 

[Kawhi_2_Murray]

Not even close man.

Trying to compare Tatum to Scottie Pippen is insane.

All the evidence points otherwise.

Celtics went from 13th ranked defense in 2017 to #1 ranked defense in 2018 when they drafted Tatum. Having a #1 defense on your team with Irving is a massive accomplishment and i like irving but he's a putrid defender. Tatum had the best on\off defensively.

Then in 2020 they were a top 4 defense even with shit defenders Hayward\Kemba logging major minutes. Tatum was 2nd to Smart on\off defensively but it was close. Are you really going to say a point guard was the defensive anchor though? lol

and this season they were #2 defense and Tatum had the best on\off defensively yet again.

That's 3 elite defensive teams he has already anchored all by his age 23 season.

He also also led the playoffs in defensive win shares in 2020 and led regular season in defensive win shares this season.

 

[tlance]

All the evidence points otherwise.

Celtics went from 13th ranked defense in 2017 to #1 ranked defense in 2018 when they drafted Tatum. Having a #1 defense on your team with Irving is a massive accomplishment and i like irving but he's a putrid defender. Tatum had the best on\off defensively.

Then in 2020 they were a top 4 defense even with shit defenders Hayward\Kemba logging major minutes. Tatum was 2nd to Smart on\off defensively but it was close. Are you really going to say a point guard was the defensive anchor though? lol

and this season they were #2 defense and Tatum had the best on\off defensively yet again.

That's 3 elite defensive teams he has already anchored all by his age 23 season.

He also also led the playoffs in defensive win shares in 2020 and led regular season in defensive win shares this season.

Yes.

Celtics are an elite defensive team with a lot of very good defenders.

The stats you are trying to use don’t tell the whole story.

And yes, eye test says Marcus Smart is the anchor. He is the best perimeter defender in the entire league, IMO. He is strong as a bull and he knows how to put his body on guys without fouling. He can defend 1-4 because of his strength.

I haven’t seen the Celtics put Tatum on an island to guard the other team’s best guy. They do it with Smart all the time, even when that guy doesn’t play Smart’s position.

Because Smart is their best defender. And he almost always draws the toughest assignment.

Hell, Smart had the toughest assignment against Brooklyn too. The entire defense was shifted to help Tatum on KD. Meanwhile Smart had a lot less help to stifle Kyrie. And he did it very well.

But you will ignore all that.

 

[Kawhi_2_Murray]

Yes.

Celtics are an elite defensive team with a lot of very good defenders.

The stats you are trying to use don’t tell the whole story.

And yes, eye test says Marcus Smart is the anchor. He is the best perimeter defender in the entire league, IMO. He is strong as a bull and he knows how to put his body on guys without fouling. He can defend 1-4 because of his strength.

I haven’t seen the Celtics put Tatum on an island to guard the other team’s best guy. They do it with Smart all the time, even when that guy doesn’t play Smart’s position.

Because Smart is their best defender. And he almost always draws the toughest assignment.

Hell, Smart had the toughest assignment against Brooklyn too. The entire defense was shifted to help Tatum on KD. Meanwhile Smart had a lot less help to stifle Kyrie. And he did it very well.

But you will ignore all that.

Comparing KD to Irving is apples and oranges though.

Yes.

Celtics are an elite defensive team with a lot of very good defenders.

The stats you are trying to use don’t tell the whole story.

And yes, eye test says Marcus Smart is the anchor. He is the best perimeter defender in the entire league, IMO. He is strong as a bull and he knows how to put his body on guys without fouling. He can defend 1-4 because of his strength.

I haven’t seen the Celtics put Tatum on an island to guard the other team’s best guy. They do it with Smart all the time, even when that guy doesn’t play Smart’s position.

Because Smart is their best defender. And he almost always draws the toughest assignment.

Hell, Smart had the toughest assignment against Brooklyn too. The entire defense was shifted to help Tatum on KD. Meanwhile Smart had a lot less help to stifle Kyrie. And he did it very well.

But you will ignore that.

Tatum beats smart in defensive on/off in 2018, 2022 and is destroying him this playoff run. They blew out the bucks and the heat when smart wasn't even playing.

Celtics beat Miami by 20 in game 4 when he sat out.

Then they beat bucks by 23 in game 2 when he sat out

No way in hell they beat bucks or heat with Tatum sitting out, especially by 20 points.

Tatum had to take the bigger assignment in Durant, while smart had the weaker assignment in Irving. Durant was constantly trying to hide from Tatum through screens or he would of shut him down even worse (if that's even possible).

 

[tlance]

Comparing KD to Irving is apples and oranges though.

Tatum beats smart in defensive on/off in 2018, 2022 and is destroying him this playoff run. They blew out the bucks and the heat when smart wasn't even playing.

Celtics beat Miami by 20 in game 4 when he sat out.

Then they beat bucks by 23 in game 2 when he sat out

No way in hell they beat bucks or heat with Tatum sitting out, especially by 20 points.

Tatum had to take the bigger assignment in Durant, while smart had the weaker assignment in Irving. Durant was constantly trying to hide from Tatum through screens or he would of shut him down even worse (if that's even possible).

No, that is totally wrong.

Guarding Kyrie 1 on 1 is way harder than guarding KD with everyone else locked in to helping on KD. The entire defensive scheme was designed around stopping Durant because they trusted Smart to guard Kyrie.

And of course Brooklyn tried to use screens to free KD. It would be stupid not to. It didn’t work because again, the entire Celtic defense was tilted toward Durant and help was always going that way.

 

[Kawhi_2_Murray]

Kevin Durant when guarded by Jayson Tatum in Game 2 per NBA tracking: 10:33 matchup time 4 PTS 0-7 FG 3 TO 1 BLK Nets were 2-11 FG overall when defended by Tatum. Impacted the game with defense and playmaking even when he was struggling early.

Tatum also guarded Tyler Herro so good that he scared Herro shitless in playing again, watch game 7

He also was shutting down Butler in the 2nd half of game 7

 

[Kawhi_2_Murray]

No, that is totally wrong.

Guarding Kyrie 1 on 1 is way harder than guarding KD with everyone else locked in to helping on KD. The entire defensive scheme was designed around stopping Durant because they trusted Smart to guard Kyrie.

And of course Brooklyn tried to use screens to free KD. It would be stupid not to. It didn’t work because again, the entire Celtic defense was tilted toward Durant and help was always going that way.

Smart/white = + 7.4

Smart/Horford = + 5.5

Smart/brown = + 0.5

Smart/grant = + 3.2

Now lets put those same players with Tatum

-----------------------------------------------

Tatum/white = + 16.1

Tatum/Horford +8.1

Tatum/brown +5.1

Tatum/Grant +7.5

That's a massive gap on just about all of them.

Also celtics "death lineup" is not with Marcus smart

White/brown/Tatum/grant/Horford in 42 total minutes are a +32.2

 

[fightinfunbags]

The Best NBA Players, According To RAPTOR

Our ratings use play-by-play and player-tracking data to calculate the value of every player in the NBA, updated daily.

projects.fivethirtyeight.com

Advanced stat raptor says Jayson Tatum is a + 8.5 on\off defensively, jaylen is -4.6

So they are saying i'm right. That would be +13.1 for Tatum

You just cited a stat created by this astute basketball mind that called Hillary in a blow out in 2016. Way to think it through.

 

[Manster7588]

What story am I ignoring?

I made my case for Tatum as top 2 player on two different site sources. He also is clearly on a better playoff run then jokic ever showed. Jamal Murray was nuggets 2020 leading scorer and assist guy

You said Tatum is tha best player. Now you're walking it back.

 

[trojanfan12]

That's what Durant will tell you. In reality he was shook by Tatum.

When Tatum was his primary defender, he had no chance. It wasn't necessary to swarm him.

Tatum's greatness is based off his defense. He's a very very good offensive player but he wouldn't be who he is without his defense, the stats back that up. It's like taking away Tim Duncan defense, that's the special part about his game (and Tatums).

Think scottie pippen with volume scoring and elite 3 point shooting

 

[fightinfunbags]

Why you laughing? Dude has a pipeline to KD. They text all day long

 

[thunderc]

I’m telling you all, this dude has been here before

 

[Wamu]

You dropped a story to support one argument, now you ignore that same story when it doesn't fit your agenda.

-->I'll tell you right now, Celtics fan here will distance themselves from you<--

Yep.