First evidence on SM

[ehb5]

Let's be clear on the "generational" RB thing, in this draft there's only one and because of his past some are saying "pass" on him. Without that incident he is a top ten pick by almost all evaluations, which means under that circumstance, Cleveland would be in a position to decide between the top defensive guy and this player. Generational RB's don't come around often, hence the "generational" tag. Again there is one in this draft, what to do about him is a big issue because of his past. So I guess my question is.....is he any less a "generational" RB because of it?

Well his past certainly doesnt help. You can't trust him and hes one bad decision away from being out of the league. So, Id say yea he is less a generational RB because of it.

 

[deanpet21]

Dean... the desperate for star power line is a bad argument. The reality should be, what helps the team more. And Im only luke warm on McCaffery actually. He brings more to the table than Kelly I think, but if the choice came down to him and an above average D-lineman, in that case I might lean towards the D-lineman. I really think there are only two RBs that should be considered at 17, and I honestly dont think either of them will be there. If thats the case, it means a Reddick, or possibly one of the real blue chip Defensive players has slipped to us. But if Cook is sitting there at 17, then Im thinking most of the true difference makers on defense ( not the fringe guys projected to us because we NEED defensive help) will be there.

McCaffery is my third choice if we are going to take a RB, and option one wont be there at 17 unless he gets caught doing something really stupid in the next ten days.

I meant Cook and McCafffery are way better than what we have now. I agree with you on Reddick.

 

[Sharkinva]

So youre arguing that we dont need a generational talent because we can put a lesser talent in and he'll succeed based on our other offensive talent. I think Id agree with that. But that just gives all the more reason to take a RB in the 4th and watch him thrive in this offense. It sure as hell doesnt make me wanna spend our most valuable pick on a RB.

Also looking back on the RBs taken - that claim about them failing because a lack of talent around them has a couple flaws. For one, a lot of them actually went to teams with a fair amount of talent. Most of them were not the only weapon there. On top of that, almost all of them at some point went to another team or situation where they still couldnt provide the value expected of a 1st round pick. The reality is - most of them just werent that good.

I think the only 2 you could argue may have been held back by situation were Gurley and Lynch. But I will add that if youre taking a RB in the 1st round he better be good enough to be at least decent in a shitty situation. Because otherwise hes just another guy. RBs who can produce in good offenses are there all throughout this draft. So sell me on Cook as a generational talent or else your argument really doesnt hold up.


As for the defense. No we dont HAVE to take a defensive player at 17. But saying that the defense is TOO far away for it to be worth it is not the reason. I mean seriously. Youre arguing its so bad we shouldnt even try to fix it? You realize it wont ever actually get fixed that way right?

We might not need a generational talent, but we do need better than the situational talents we currently have. And my point is, Cook is MUCH better than what we currently have. He might not be an AP, but he is much better than Rob Kelly or Matt Jones.

And Im not saying we dont invest in the defense, Im saying we dont take a lesser talent on Defense simply because we need to improve the defense. You and I both know that the majority of people rank Cook as a better prospect than the likes of Jabril Peppers... so why is it half the mocks out there have projected him to us for months??? Simple... NEED.

But what you are saying is, if a RB isnt generational, he isnt worth the 17 pick. But if a defensive player is being slotted there primarily because our defense sucks... its a better pick.

 

[gkekoa]

So Scherff made the same mount of impact as Vic Beasley an Zeke?

I would say more.

 

[Stymietee]

Well his past certainly doesnt help. You can't trust him and hes one bad decision away from being out of the league. So, Id say yea he is less a generational RB because of it.

YOU can't trust him, I do, so that's a wash. They are all one bad decision from being out of the league. In fact I'll argue exactly the opposite in that his past is all the incentive he'll ever need to stay clear of trouble. It really bothers me that we've evolving from celebrating successful rises after a fall to a lack in confidence in the fallen. To me he remains a top ten pick, the talent says so and almost everyone agrees to this. Maybe it's organizational ineptitude that's at issue here.

 

[gkekoa]

Dean...what happened to our OL when Scherff was inserted?

Did Zeke really improve Dallas' running game or was it the addition of a running QB?

Vic Beasley did what as a rookie? He had a great season last year; however, how much did he really improve ATL defense?

 

[ehb5]

YOU can't trust him, I do, so that's a wash. They are all one bad decision from being out of the league. In fact I'll argue exactly the opposite in that his past is all the incentive he'll ever need to stay clear of trouble. It really bothers me that we've evolving from celebrating successful rises after a fall to a lack in confidence in the fallen. To me he remains a top ten pick, the talent says so and almost everyone agrees to this. Maybe it's organizational ineptitude that's at issue here.

Im not sure thats how it works. Theres good reason not to trust him. Its not some willy nilly feeling I have about the guy. NFL teams dont trust him, and most of us on here dont trust him. Doesnt mean he cant be a choir boy from here out but...we all know what happened.

Is everybody a bad decision from being gone? I guess. But not like Mixon is. He's on thinner ice. A lack of confidence doesnt mean we dont want him to succeed, just that we're realistic about his situation.

 

[ehb5]

We might not need a generational talent, but we do need better than the situational talents we currently have. And my point is, Cook is MUCH better than what we currently have. He might not be an AP, but he is much better than Rob Kelly or Matt Jones.

And Im not saying we dont invest in the defense, Im saying we dont take a lesser talent on Defense simply because we need to improve the defense. You and I both know that the majority of people rank Cook as a better prospect than the likes of Jabril Peppers... so why is it half the mocks out there have projected him to us for months??? Simple... NEED.

But what you are saying is, if a RB isnt generational, he isnt worth the 17 pick. But if a defensive player is being slotted there primarily because our defense sucks... its a better pick.

Cook probably is better than what we have. But theres a lot pf players available who are better than what we have. Thats not enough.

Like I said. You view Cook as a much better prospect than I (and plenty of evaluators) do. Convince me hes so great.

Most positions dont require a generational talent to be worth the pick. RB kinda does. So yea, a very good prospect at DL, or WR, OT, or wherever is better than a very good prospect at RB.

 

[Sharkinva]

Cook probably is better than what we have. But theres a lot pf players available who are better than what we have. Thats not enough.

Like I said. You view Cook as a much better prospect than I (and plenty of evaluators) do. Convince me hes so great.

Most positions dont require a generational talent to be worth the pick. RB kinda does. So yea, a very good prospect at DL, or WR, OT, or wherever is better than a very good prospect at RB.

If you put it in a bubble and say, well the guy has to be borderline HOF material to be worth a mid first rounder.. .well I guess it makes sense that way. But again Cook is MUCH better than what we have. Im not talking the difference between say Matt Jones, and Rob Kelly. IN a pinch, either will get you buy in spurts as we have seen. I get it you dont value the position (at all apparently) and you figure we can stick any late round pick back there and take our chances. I think Cook brings that next level to our offense that we have been missing. I have said it a few times, I think he is a back that if we line up to run it in most situations, teams will have to respect it. Right now teams dont, because lets face it no one respects our ground game.

Most of the D-line they are forecasting to us at 17 are because of the fuck it they have no choice but to address the defense, same with the safety Peppers. Barring one of the premier defensive players sliding (which likely means Cook is gone any way) IM just not seeing the players generally projected to us as being both a better player, and a better fit for us than Cook. I think its a mistake to go better on defense trumps RB, because frankly I think the talent level drop off at RB behind Cook (aside from Captain slapahoe) is that dramatic, where as I think D-line talent level from 17 to 49 is no where near as drastic, and I think D-line should be the pick... in the second round.

 

[Stymietee]

Im not sure thats how it works. Theres good reason not to trust him. Its not some willy nilly feeling I have about the guy. NFL teams dont trust him, and most of us on here dont trust him. Doesnt mean he cant be a choir boy from here out but...we all know what happened.

Is everybody a bad decision from being gone? I guess. But not like Mixon is. He's on thinner ice. A lack of confidence doesnt mean we dont want him to succeed, just that we're realistic about his situation.

If the position was pope or some other sanctimonious position, Ok I'm with you! Unfortunately it's not, if we're honest we really don't care what these guys do off field just as long as it doesn't hurt the on field play. I'll admit that what he did was by current standards, was a terrible thing. He was suspended from the team for the 2014 season after a misdemeanor assault charge. He received a one-year deferred sentence and was ordered to undergo counseling along with 100 hours of community service. Is facing a civil lawsuit and currently counsels against assault on women. Question: at what point does one fully pay their debt to society? This is contrary to opinion a good kid who made a reactionary mistake, in fact let's hear it from him:

“I made a bad decision,” Mixon said. “Ever since that night I have to live with it. I’ve got to re-live it every day. You can never forget something like that. It still haunts me to this day, but it’s what you do from that point on. You can’t take it back. I can replay it in my head a thousand times, and if I could take it back I would, but I can’t.”

Mixon said he still believes he can be a good role model and wants to earn the privilege of playing in the NFL.

“I’m trying to educate youth throughout the community and having them learn from my mistakes,” Mixon said.

Sounds like a horrible guy to me!

 

[Sportster 72]

If the position was pope or some other sanctimonious position, Ok I'm with you! Unfortunately it's not, if we're honest we really don't care what these guys do off field just as long as it doesn't hurt the on field play. I'll admit that what he did was by current standards, was a terrible thing. He was suspended from the team for the 2014 season after a misdemeanor assault charge. He received a one-year deferred sentence and was ordered to undergo counseling along with 100 hours of community service. Is facing a civil lawsuit and currently counsels against assault on women. Question: at what point does one fully pay their debt to society? This is contrary to opinion a good kid who made a reactionary mistake, in fact let's hear it from him:

“I made a bad decision,” Mixon said. “Ever since that night I have to live with it. I’ve got to re-live it every day. You can never forget something like that. It still haunts me to this day, but it’s what you do from that point on. You can’t take it back. I can replay it in my head a thousand times, and if I could take it back I would, but I can’t.”

Mixon said he still believes he can be a good role model and wants to earn the privilege of playing in the NFL.

“I’m trying to educate youth throughout the community and having them learn from my mistakes,” Mixon said.

Sounds like a horrible guy to me!

I agree, he deserves another chance. Draft him in the 3, 4 or 5 round. That way if he was only BSing to get a gig you don't surrender as much. Nothing against the kid. ehb said it, he is being viewed a different way. He is one angry moment from "POOF" now you see him, now you don't. The math is simple. But what the hell we traded a quarter of a team for a one year wonder QB so why not take a chance on a guy who might be gone after some woman taunts him. That left hook will pay a lot more than it did 4 years ago. You never know who might be willing to take a shot in jaw for a million or so.

 

[ehb5]

If you put it in a bubble and say, well the guy has to be borderline HOF material to be worth a mid first rounder.. .well I guess it makes sense that way. But again Cook is MUCH better than what we have. Im not talking the difference between say Matt Jones, and Rob Kelly. IN a pinch, either will get you buy in spurts as we have seen. I get it you dont value the position (at all apparently) and you figure we can stick any late round pick back there and take our chances. I think Cook brings that next level to our offense that we have been missing. I have said it a few times, I think he is a back that if we line up to run it in most situations, teams will have to respect it. Right now teams dont, because lets face it no one respects our ground game.

Most of the D-line they are forecasting to us at 17 are because of the fuck it they have no choice but to address the defense, same with the safety Peppers. Barring one of the premier defensive players sliding (which likely means Cook is gone any way) IM just not seeing the players generally projected to us as being both a better player, and a better fit for us than Cook. I think its a mistake to go better on defense trumps RB, because frankly I think the talent level drop off at RB behind Cook (aside from Captain slapahoe) is that dramatic, where as I think D-line talent level from 17 to 49 is no where near as drastic, and I think D-line should be the pick... in the second round.

Fair enough. We could go in circles on this forever probably lol. But Ill just say 2 things. 1 - drafting a DLman is probably a big improvement over what we have just like drafting a RB is probably a big improvement over what we have. 2 - Cook is great on film. Ive been watching him all year and have been super excited about him, BUT...he does have off field concerns, a shoulder thats caused him problems in the past, and a bad athletic profile at the combine. I dont think any of these things are glaring stay the hell away signs but theyre all very fair criticisms and damage his profile as a prospect.

 

[Sharkinva]

If the position was pope or some other sanctimonious position, Ok I'm with you! Unfortunately it's not, if we're honest we really don't care what these guys do off field just as long as it doesn't hurt the on field play. I'll admit that what he did was by current standards, was a terrible thing. He was suspended from the team for the 2014 season after a misdemeanor assault charge. He received a one-year deferred sentence and was ordered to undergo counseling along with 100 hours of community service. Is facing a civil lawsuit and currently counsels against assault on women. Question: at what point does one fully pay their debt to society? This is contrary to opinion a good kid who made a reactionary mistake, in fact let's hear it from him:

“I made a bad decision,” Mixon said. “Ever since that night I have to live with it. I’ve got to re-live it every day. You can never forget something like that. It still haunts me to this day, but it’s what you do from that point on. You can’t take it back. I can replay it in my head a thousand times, and if I could take it back I would, but I can’t.”

Mixon said he still believes he can be a good role model and wants to earn the privilege of playing in the NFL.

“I’m trying to educate youth throughout the community and having them learn from my mistakes,” Mixon said.

Sounds like a horrible guy to me!

Everyone is remorseful when they get caught. If a man gets caught sleeping with his secretary, you never hear him say to his wife, Hell yes I did it, she sucks a mean D!(k and outs your sorry ass to shame, so take the kids and half my fortune 500 company.

Does he deserve another chance? Sure he does, but that punch cost him a couple million dollars.

 

[Sharkinva]

Fair enough. We could go in circles on this forever probably lol. But Ill just say 2 things. 1 - drafting a DLman is probably a big improvement over what we have just like drafting a RB is probably a big improvement over what we have. 2 - Cook is great on film. Ive been watching him all year and have been super excited about him, BUT...he does have off field concerns, a shoulder thats caused him problems in the past, and a bad athletic profile at the combine. I dont think any of these things are glaring stay the hell away signs but theyre all very fair criticisms and damage his profile as a prospect.

Agreed we could go back and forth.

McDowell has concerns about his motivation and taking plays off.

Reddick was a less than 70% player who will be switching positions.

I could nit pick every possible player mocked to us. But i stick by what I have said, the combine results dont worry me and his off field issues worry me far less than some others. And i think what he brings far outmatches what what the other possibilities bring and the talent drop off for D-line is not as steep as the drop off from Cook to the next RB not named Mixon (aka Cap'n slapahoe)

 

[ehb5]

If the position was pope or some other sanctimonious position, Ok I'm with you! Unfortunately it's not, if we're honest we really don't care what these guys do off field just as long as it doesn't hurt the on field play. I'll admit that what he did was by current standards, was a terrible thing. He was suspended from the team for the 2014 season after a misdemeanor assault charge. He received a one-year deferred sentence and was ordered to undergo counseling along with 100 hours of community service. Is facing a civil lawsuit and currently counsels against assault on women. Question: at what point does one fully pay their debt to society? This is contrary to opinion a good kid who made a reactionary mistake, in fact let's hear it from him:

“I made a bad decision,” Mixon said. “Ever since that night I have to live with it. I’ve got to re-live it every day. You can never forget something like that. It still haunts me to this day, but it’s what you do from that point on. You can’t take it back. I can replay it in my head a thousand times, and if I could take it back I would, but I can’t.”

Mixon said he still believes he can be a good role model and wants to earn the privilege of playing in the NFL.

“I’m trying to educate youth throughout the community and having them learn from my mistakes,” Mixon said.

Sounds like a horrible guy to me!

No it doesnt really matter what kind of people they are as long as they stay out of trouble and can stay on the field. But thats the thing - Mixon has a shorter leash for staying on the field whether you like it or not.

At one point does somebody pay their debt to society? I dont know and at least in the context of this discussion, I dont care. Im a Mike Vick fan - he payed his debts he earned his second shot and he didnt screw it up. But he was still a riskier investment than the QBs who hadnt spent time locked up.

Finally - I dont think hes just a good kid who made an innocent mistake. Hes at best a hot head who couldnt control his anger and did something really stupid and shitty as a result that directly hurt somebody. But hes had at least one other incident - this past year he ripped up a parking ticket threw in the ticket officers face, got in his car, and inched it towards her. Seems like a level headed guy.

Also about his apology...took him a while to come around on that...
Oklahoma's Joe Mixon shows no shred of remorse for punching a woman

Kinda sounds like what I would call an asshole there. And when all the signs point to you being an asshole who cant control his anger.......

 

[Stymietee]

I agree, he deserves another chance. Draft him in the 3, 4 or 5 round. That way if he was only BSing to get a gig you don't surrender as much. Nothing against the kid. ehb said it, he is being viewed a different way. He is one angry moment from "POOF" now you see him, now you don't. The math is simple. But what the hell we traded a quarter of a team for a one year wonder QB so why not take a chance on a guy who might be gone after some woman taunts him. That left hook will pay a lot more than it did 4 years ago. You never know who might be willing to take a shot in jaw for a million or so.

Oh I agree however, unless there has been a secret agreement among all GM's (Collusion that didn't happen) that the proper punishment comes with lowering his financial value...4th or 5th rounder, we're taking an awfully big gamble on being able to get one of the top ten players coming out this year.

 

[Skin'EmAll]

Why are we desperate for star power?

And for the record Im NEVER a fan of drafting some one because we are desperate for what they might bring.

Let's be clear on the "generational" RB thing, in this draft there's only one and because of his past some are saying "pass" on him.

Was adding 2 cents into this interesting argument specifically when it got to RB value at 17.
Ehb5, skimming thru some of the dialogue with Dean -- taking a RB at 17, in fact arguably the #1 until a poor combine(agility/accel is easy to improve upon) would hardly be a reach. It is completely different then a top 10 situation where you are hoping a pick turns around the franchise. He is likely going to be the 2nd RB drafted, look at the list of the RBs taken 2nd in the past few drafts - le'veon bell, jeremy hill, melvin gordon, derrick henry.


Shark that's where I agree with you about RB if at this point R.Foster is gone.

Sty -- According to analyst there are two generational RBs this year. Fournette and Mixon.

 

[Sharkinva]

Was adding 2 cents into this interesting argument specifically when it got to RB value at 17.
Ehb5, skimming thru some of the dialogue with Dean -- taking a RB at 17, in fact arguably the #1 until a poor combine(agility/accel is easy to improve upon) would hardly be a reach. It is completely different then a top 10 situation where you are hoping a pick turns around the franchise. He is likely going to be the 2nd RB drafted, look at the list of the RBs taken 2nd in the past few drafts - le'veon bell, jeremy hill, melvin gordon, derrick henry.


Shark that's where I agree with you about RB if at this point R.Foster is gone.

Sty -- According to analyst there are two generational RBs this year. Fournette and Mixon.

If Foster is there, you run his name up to the podium. He is one of the few defensive players not named Myles that I would take over Cook. Thomas and Hooker would be the others... Jonathan Allen WOULD have been on this list.. but he got Dean Factored out a while back.

 

[Stymietee]

Was adding 2 cents into this interesting argument specifically when it got to RB value at 17.
Ehb5, skimming thru some of the dialogue with Dean -- taking a RB at 17, in fact arguably the #1 until a poor combine(agility/accel is easy to improve upon) would hardly be a reach. It is completely different then a top 10 situation where you are hoping a pick turns around the franchise. He is likely going to be the 2nd RB drafted, look at the list of the RBs taken 2nd in the past few drafts - le'veon bell, jeremy hill, melvin gordon, derrick henry.


Shark that's where I agree with you about RB if at this point R.Foster is gone.

Sty -- According to analyst there are two generational RBs this year. Fournette and Mixon.

Hate to disagree with you because Fournette is one hellacious runner. Problem is he a horrifically poor blocker and his receiving game needs a lot of work, that to me doesn't spell once in a lifetime RB (generational). Don't get me wrong, I'd take him in a blink if I could but to me the most complete back in a draft that we've seen in quite a long time wore #25 in OU colors.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Dean...what happened to our OL when Scherff was inserted?

Did Zeke really improve Dallas' running game or was it the addition of a running QB?

Vic Beasley did what as a rookie? He had a great season last year; however, how much did he really improve ATL defense?

I laughed at the Boys when they spent such a high pick on Zeke, always was in the camp that you can find a RB. But I don't believe for a second that a running QB, not the back, was the reason for their improved running game. No IMO it was the back, not a mobile QB, who made the big difference. It's not like they were running the read option and nobody had ever seen it before like with Morris and RGIII

I look at him, AP, Jamal Charles, Le’Veon Bell, Gurley etc and realize that yeah, taking a back high isn't such a bad idea after all.