IF kirk walks im done with this team

[skinsdad62]

An outsider take.

1st off...I thought the FO made the right move to franchise Cousins off his one year sample. I think the FO knew what the risks were just as I and most of you did. If he plays well again, the price would go up....well, he played well again. If you were one of those guys that said sign him long term LY...okay...you were right, but that's water under the bridge now.

In today's NFL at the QB position...it's not really about winning significant games to earn the big contract anymore. If you prove you can consistently move the ball and put up points over the 16 game season...you're deemed worthy of the money. He's clearly done that.

The question of how much? For me...Luck's deal is is steep, but fair market. At the same time it's a 2016 deal and now it's 2017 so I can see him going slightly higher than Luck. Cousins is 28 already so this deal is going to take him to retirement basically. If tries to max out you can't blame him, but making a ton a cash and being a non-playoff team hopefully is not what he wants.

The FO has a say, but as many of of you have said...it's Kirk call really.

we have cash this year and we have cash next year (18)
money isnt an issue

 

[Sharkinva]

we have cash this year and we have cash next year (18)
money isnt an issue

An issue no, a reason (excuse) as to why we should consider going in another direction.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

we have cash this year and we have cash next year (18)
money isnt an issue

For me it wouldn't be so much about Kirk's money...it would be what's remaining to build around him. I think you guys lose or may lose two key WRs.

 

[Sharkinva]

For me it wouldn't be so much about Kirk's money...it would be what's remaining to build around him. I think you guys lose or may lose two key WRs.

Unless Kirk has a $35M cap hit, we can afford to sign him long term and keep one if not both WRs and still make some moves to improve the defense.

Again I dont think its about if we have the money/Cap space, more so a matter of IF the GM wants to use it that way.

 

[skinsdad62]

i have already posted this in another thread . we have plenty of cap space to over pay all our free agents and sign a bigger name or 2

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Unless Kirk has a $35M cap hit, we can afford to sign him long term and keep one if not both WRs and still make some moves to improve the defense.

Again I dont think its about if we have the money/Cap space, more so a matter of IF the GM wants to use it that way.

Oh...I didn't read thru all the pages to note that. In that case (cap is not a problem for Cousins or additional pieces)...in your mind why would the GM not do this?

 

[Sharkinva]

Oh...I didn't read thru all the pages to note that. In that case (cap is not a problem for Cousins or additional pieces)...in your mind why would the GM not do this?

My honest opinion, the only reason NOT to do it would be that they feel they want an Elite QB and that Kirk isnt and might not ever be. So in that case they would be willing to risk getting worse in the hope they can find better.


Well that or Kirk really does go off the deep end and ask for totally out the park kind of money.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

My honest opinion, the only reason NOT to do it would be that they feel they want an Elite QB and that Kirk isnt and might not ever be. So in that case they would be willing to risk getting worse in the hope they can find better.


Well that or Kirk really does go off the deep end and ask for totally out the park kind of money.

I agree 100% with that statement..Here in ATL that very same topic has been tossed about for years regarding Matt Ryan...imo he's a 2nd tier QB, very good, but 2nd tier compared to Brady, Roth, Rogers. The truth is the true elite QB class imo = rings and performance and there simply are not that many guys.

He has a bit to go to be on the same level, but I'm starting to look at Cousins in the same light as a Matt Ryan...clearly can do the job, but needs more big game, more post season success to make fans really have that warm and fuzzy feeling about them.

The second coming in IND has not yet ascended to elite status either. That's truly a needle in a haystack...and imo the needle is getting smaller the way the college game is played today.

 

[eaglesnut]

I agree this is where KC cant be greedy. Sure he will get more money from a team like the Browns but does he want to go to the Browns.

The Browns only have 18 less wins than the Redskins over the last ten years. 11 of those wins coming in the last two years. The only thing that keeps you guys from being "The Browns" is Kirk Cousins. You guys are playing with absolute fire here.

If he walks I hear Jason Campbell is available...

 

[redskinsfan]

Oh...I didn't read thru all the pages to note that. In that case (cap is not a problem for Cousins or additional pieces)...in your mind why would the GM not do this?

Here's why it might not happen. Keep in mind that that article was written earlier on in the season, so things may have changed. But it's always lurking in the background.

 

[eaglesnut]

No, let KC sign a fair deal.

Somewhere else and the redskins go to the basement of the NFL. OMG please do that.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Here's why it might not happen. Keep in mind that that article was written earlier on in the season, so things may have changed. But it's always lurking in the background.

Interesting read, but I saw the same factions here with Ryan...especially right before the extension. Maybe he's won over a few more with the season he had but much like here...he will need playoff success to get the majority of the haters.

 

[j_y19]

Interesting read, but I saw the same factions here with Ryan...especially right before the extension. Maybe he's won over a few more with the season he had but much like here...he will need playoff success to get the majority of the haters.

Here's the deal. The vast majority of franchise QBs were not franchise QBs their first couple of years. The reality is that playing QB in the NFL is hard. Real hard. And for almost all, it takes time. Years, in most cases, to become proficient. Cousins is on pace, if not ahead of many, in his development given his playing time. He has made mistakes that have cost games and probably has a few more in the future. But the fact is he is a very hard worker and has made significant strides to overcome many of his issues. To overlook all of the significant positive things he has done is just being short sighted, IMO. The guy has all of the physical and mental tools to be very good in this league. Hell, he is already pretty damn good, but still not without flaws. This is why I predict that the skins will sign him in relatively short order to a long term deal that will pay him accordingly for what he will do for this team in the next 5 years. That's because franchise QBs don't come along very often. There are maybe 12-15 in the league at any one time. Some teams (like the redskins) have spent decades looking for a guy that can operate their offense like cousins has operated this offense over the last 2 years.

For those of you that can't get past his mistakes he has made or the issues he still needs to overcome, I'd only ask you really look at the inordinate amount that was asked of him given that he had no real run support and was asked to throw the ball more than any other QB, sans Brees, over the last two years. The guy represents our best chance to have a winning franchise in the foreseeable future.

 

[Breed]

In today's NFL at the QB position...it's not really about winning significant games to earn the big contract anymore. If you prove you can consistently move the ball and put up points over the 16 game season...you're deemed worthy of the money. He's clearly done that.

Concerning your position on what today's NFL QB position is about. OK. That's cool. Its easily defined and simple to understand. Are there no caveats though?

As you say, Kirk has consistently shown he's capable of moving the ball. Team-wise the Skins were #3 in total yards this year. He's shown himself to be a very effective passer. Skins were #2 in passing yards in the NFL.

On an individual basis concerning Kirk. He finished no worse than 8th and as high as 3rd in the league in every category except 2. TD passes, he had 25, which was 13th best and TD% which he finished 16th. Team-wise the NFL average for team TD passes was 24.5. Kirk had all the Skins TD passes so his 25 would fall firmly in the average category.

A lot of Skins peeps say the running game was garbage and needs upgrading. I don't disagree with the upgrading, but garbage is bullshit imo.From a team standpoint the Skins were as followed.

21st in total rushing yards and 21st in rushing yards per game. In total carries for the year and carries per game the Skins were 27th in both categories. In average per rush they were tied for7th in the league at 4.5 yards a pop and their 17 rushing TDs were bested by only 5 teams and ranked them 7th in the NFL. Kirk's contribution to the running game was most significant in rushing TDs with 4 rushing TDs to his credit.

Their leading rusher for the year was Robert Kelley with 168 carries for 704 yards at 4.2 ypc and 6 TDs.

Now I agree with you in that players should get as much as they can, but and here's where the real cavaeats come in. And most want to hear your opinion. Ending up as a non-playoff team this year isn't something that helps Kirk's cause imo. How much does it hurt his cause though? With the playoffs within the Skins grasp. They finished 2-4 the last 6 games. Including bad losses at home to Carolina and NYG in weeks 15 and 17 and only managed to score 25 points. There was no leadership whatsoever displayed by any Redskins eithet in both those losses including Kirk.

His overall W/L record in only 19-21-1, but in the last two years of starting its an above average 17-14-1. But against teams with winning records, and I know you said that's not the standard anymore. His record is a dismal 2-11 for a winning percentage of 15.38%.

Now Luck's present contract has for whatever reason become the forum's baseline. You're correct that its a year old so asking for slightly more isn't unreasonable....if Kirk is worth it. And that's the big question.

Andrew Luck's contract is as follows 5 year, $122,970,000 with a $32,000,000 signing bonus. $87,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $24,594,000. In 2016, Luck will earn a base salary of $12,000,000 and a signing bonus of $18,000,000. Luck has a cap hit of $18,400,000 while his dead money value is $44,000,000.

At present I'm in the "reluctantly Kirk needs to be re-signed" camp. 87 million guaranteed dollars throughout 5 years is a lotta money for a QB. For any QB really. But we're talking about a QB with a 19-21-1 overall starting record. Who's 0-1 in the playoffs and 0-1 in another game that was a win n you're in the playoffs game. So effectively making him 0-2 in playoff games/game to get into the playoffs. With a very very unimpressive 2-11 W/L record against teams with a winning record.

 

[Sportster 72]

You guys haven't made your point yet?

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Concerning your position on what today's NFL QB position is about. OK. That's cool. Its easily defined and simple to understand. Are there no caveats though?

As you say, Kirk has consistently shown he's capable of moving the ball. Team-wise the Skins were #3 in total yards this year. He's shown himself to be a very effective passer. Skins were #2 in passing yards in the NFL.

On an individual basis concerning Kirk. He finished no worse than 8th and as high as 3rd in the league in every category except 2. TD passes, he had 25, which was 13th best and TD% which he finished 16th. Team-wise the NFL average for team TD passes was 24.5. Kirk had all the Skins TD passes so his 25 would fall firmly in the average category.

A lot of Skins peeps say the running game was garbage and needs upgrading. I don't disagree with the upgrading, but garbage is bullshit imo.From a team standpoint the Skins were as followed.

21st in total rushing yards and 21st in rushing yards per game. In total carries for the year and carries per game the Skins were 27th in both categories. In average per rush they were tied for7th in the league at 4.5 yards a pop and their 17 rushing TDs were bested by only 5 teams and ranked them 7th in the NFL. Kirk's contribution to the running game was most significant in rushing TDs with 4 rushing TDs to his credit.

Their leading rusher for the year was Robert Kelley with 168 carries for 704 yards at 4.2 ypc and 6 TDs.

Now I agree with you in that players should get as much as they can, but and here's where the real cavaeats come in. And most want to hear your opinion. Ending up as a non-playoff team this year isn't something that helps Kirk's cause imo. How much does it hurt his cause though? With the playoffs within the Skins grasp. They finished 2-4 the last 6 games. Including bad losses at home to Carolina and NYG in weeks 15 and 17 and only managed to score 25 points. There was no leadership whatsoever displayed by any Redskins eithet in both those losses including Kirk.

His overall W/L record in only 19-21-1, but in the last two years of starting its an above average 17-14-1. But against teams with winning records, and I know you said that's not the standard anymore. His record is a dismal 2-11 for a winning percentage of 15.38%.

Now Luck's present contract has for whatever reason become the forum's baseline. You're correct that its a year old so asking for slightly more isn't unreasonable....if Kirk is worth it. And that's the big question.

Andrew Luck's contract is as follows 5 year, $122,970,000 with a $32,000,000 signing bonus. $87,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $24,594,000. In 2016, Luck will earn a base salary of $12,000,000 and a signing bonus of $18,000,000. Luck has a cap hit of $18,400,000 while his dead money value is $44,000,000.

At present I'm in the "reluctantly Kirk needs to be re-signed" camp. 87 million guaranteed dollars throughout 5 years is a lotta money for a QB. For any QB really. But we're talking about a QB with a 19-21-1 overall starting record. Who's 0-1 in the playoffs and 0-1 in another game that was a win n you're in the playoffs game. So effectively making him 0-2 in playoff games/game to get into the playoffs. With a very very unimpressive 2-11 W/L record against teams with a winning record.

Great post and well stated.

But...just going on the contract history of what guys like Matt Ryan and Romo have gotten...even Luck to some degree, the league rewards the stat producing QBs. So on that end, one can justify the money Cousins is going to get...Fans like winning SBs a whole lot more...especially a franchise like WAS that has some Lombardi hardware...the market is the market, but I understand how you feel.

 

[Breed]

Great post and well stated.

But...just going on the contract history of what guys like Matt Ryan and Romo have gotten...even Luck to some degree, the league rewards the stat producing QBs. So on that end, one can justify the money Cousins is going to get...Fans like winning SBs a whole lot more...especially a franchise like WAS that has some Lombardi hardware...the market is the market, but I understand how you feel.

Word. Far as the market goes and how QBs or other players are viewed and rewarded. It is what it is.

Thanks for the response.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Here's the deal. The vast majority of franchise QBs were not franchise QBs their first couple of years. The reality is that playing QB in the NFL is hard. Real hard. And for almost all, it takes time. Years, in most cases, to become proficient. Cousins is on pace, if not ahead of many, in his development given his playing time. He has made mistakes that have cost games and probably has a few more in the future. But the fact is he is a very hard worker and has made significant strides to overcome many of his issues. To overlook all of the significant positive things he has done is just being short sighted, IMO. The guy has all of the physical and mental tools to be very good in this league. Hell, he is already pretty damn good, but still not without flaws. This is why I predict that the skins will sign him in relatively short order to a long term deal that will pay him accordingly for what he will do for this team in the next 5 years. That's because franchise QBs don't come along very often. There are maybe 12-15 in the league at any one time. Some teams (like the redskins) have spent decades looking for a guy that can operate their offense like cousins has operated this offense over the last 2 years.

For those of you that can't get past his mistakes he has made or the issues he still needs to overcome, I'd only ask you really look at the inordinate amount that was asked of him given that he had no real run support and was asked to throw the ball more than any other QB, sans Brees, over the last two years. The guy represents our best chance to have a winning franchise in the foreseeable future.

Agreed...essentially a 2nd yr starter...a guy like Ben was able to be successful early because of the team around him...he barely registered in his 1st SB win...so yes, it does take time....we're seeing that 1st hand here in ATL.

What QBs like Cousins, and Ryan, etc. give you is the great opportunity to compete for a DIV title and a playoff berth yr in, yr out...how you build around them will ultimately determine your success. The teams like NYJ that have most of the other pcs, but not the consistency at QB are finding they really won't have a legit chance to make the playoffs on a yr to yr basis.