The offense

[WizardHawk]

Ok, so there was yet another full segment on the radio today about the offense and the cause(s) of it being less than it can/should be. Lots of points raised and then all of them picked what they thought was the biggest reason. They all either picked the line, Wilson, or the receivers. Every single caller that they took on the subject picked coaches. That option covered the scheme as well as the play calling. Every single fan said the biggest problem is the coaching. Not one who covers the team did.

Share your views in this thread, but make your first post start off with your order of priority for what is holding this offense back from the following list:
Scheme/philosophy
Wilson
Line
Play Calling
WR and their lack of getting separation

I'm really baffled that so many believe that changing Bevell would somehow create a juggarnaught offense out of what they are working with right now, but maybe I'm wrong in thinking most of you put Bevell at the top.

I'll go first -

WR's - If they do get separation it is often well after the pocket is already gone and wilson is running for his life
Line - Mostly average at run blocking, but often way sub par on pass protecting
Scheme - You don't see them air things out unless they are behind and it has been that way every year Carroll has been here. Remember Hasselbeck under him?
Wilson - Doesn't always find the open receivers. Leaves the pocket too early at times. Hasn't been sharp on passing in several games all year.
Play Calling - Some of the plays called around the red zone have been baffling.

 

[WizardHawk]

And I'll remind everyone that as it is, every game this season the offense has scored enough to win. In all three losses the defense had chances to save the game and didn't. In every game they were behind the offense scored enough to overcome it and win. I'm not sure it is nearly as broken as some of you think. Seriously not enough to get rid of any of the coaches running it. I mean this is a team on the doorstep of the SB and people want the head of the OC. Just blows my mind.

 

[SonnyCID]

Like Carroll always says, "its all about the ball". Take care of it and force the opposing offense to flinch first. And I truly believe that they will.

I think people have really forgotten how much Lynch likes to play the niners. And how good he looked the other day. Not just in the stat box but how he physically looked. He didnt look worn down at all. He looked to be in great form.

 

[Screamin12th]

1. Play calling has been a little to conservative
2. Wilson has missed wide open receivers and has been off target ( High or behind )
3. Oline has not been giving Wilson enough time

That's how i see it. Some say the WR are not getting separation, that's not how i see it. Having the Coaches tape really helps me out here. They are getting separation but either Wilson misses them ( doesn't see them) or has to run OR his throws have been off target. ( Case in point ) remember the wide open Luke Willson that Wilson missed by over throwing him? You do not get all your WR getting separation on every play. It's the QB's job to find the open man. Wilson has struggled in this area lately. Also the play calling has been way to vanilla.

 

[WizardHawk]

So to make sure I understand you then, getting rid of Bevell (or having him change his play calling at least) is the thing that would make the most improvement to this sputtering offense right? That alone would add more points/yards than either having Harvin/Rice (or other guys who can get separation), having an improved line, having Carroll allow more risk in the offense in close games, or improvements by Wilson?

 

[dkmightyhammer]

I've been saying all week long that the main thing that's made our O look a little less stellar was simply the quality of the Defenses we've played lately. Arizona, San Fran, NYGiants and Saints x 2 is going to make any offense look meager. Finally today on NFL network I got some support. Baldinger and Dukes agreed that the Hawks have played a murderer's row of defenses lately. 4 of the the 10 defenses in the league is going to be difficult for any team to do well against.

Wilson could be a little a sharper without a doubt but he's still playing great. Both of the balls to Harvin (when he got concussed both times) were on the money and extremely hard throws. Wilson is due for a statistically better game. I hope it comes on Sunday and I hope Harvin is back.

 

[WizardHawk]

Well that's kind of the point. If you really want a more dynamic offense you first have to get rid of Carroll who wants a conservative, balanced, running first offense and goes extra conservative when having a lead. Anything to prevent momentum turnovers. Then you have to measure it against a variety of defenses. And before you evaluate yards, red zone efficiency, etc look at wins/losses.

A 14-3 team that plays all of the top defenses in the league, some twice cannot by definition have a bad offense.

 

[Perpetual_Beast_Mode]

I agree with Wizard Hawk that Bevell often gets too much of the blame for the Seahawks inconsistent offense. I agree that his play calling is very conservative, but I think a lot of our offensive problems result from lack of execution as opposed to play calling. Other than the playoff game against the Saints, and the possible exception of week 17, our run blocking has been sub-standard for weeks. The passing game has been very lackluster as well. I watch the games at home, where the camera mostly focuses on the Russell Wilson and the pocket, so I can't see the WRs as much, but I get the impression that they aren't getting enough separation. The pass protection could use some improvement, too.

It's easy to blame conservative play calling for our offensive mediocrity, but I think that a run-heavy offense actually makes a lot of sense in many ways. We have one of the most talented defenses in the NFL, and I think that running the ball and controlling the clock helps them out A LOT. Also, it seemed like against the Saints running the ball helped us out by getting us into a lot of 3rd and manageable. It looked to me like our offensive problems against the Saints were a result of some missed throws, dropped passes, and lackluster pass protection; rather than play calling.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

OL This has been the biggest problem for most of the year. The OL has been a sieve and there have been games where RW has had no chance of making a play. Last Saturday I thought the Ol did better, but there poor play during the season has lead to problem #2.

RW Love the guy and think he'll be great, but I think he has lack of faith in his line now. It's lead to some bad habits. When he steps up in the pocket, he just continues to move forward, doesn't trust his line to hold up. Also he's been a tad quick to run and is running to his right to often ( something he did in the first part of last season). Throwing on the run has lead to some off target throws, usually high. That what happens when you can't or won't set your feet.

Scheme Seahawks have been stubborn about doing what they do, even if it isn't working really great. Hard to complain when they win13 games, but it's led to games being much closer then they should be.

Play Calling Yeah, some plays here and there are head scratchers, but I think every OC has been accused of that.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Well that's kind of the point. If you really want a more dynamic offense you first have to get rid of Carroll who wants a conservative, balanced, running first offense and goes extra conservative when having a lead. Anything to prevent momentum turnovers. Then you have to measure it against a variety of defenses. And before you evaluate yards, red zone efficiency, etc look at wins/losses.

A 14-3 team that plays all of the top defenses in the league, some twice cannot by definition have a bad offense.

Lets not get carried away now. I don't believe that the offense we've seen the last few years, necessarily stays the same down the road. Right now you got a young QB, a great RB, and a stellar defense, so you play more conservative football. The longer RW is on the team and progresses, the more the offense opens up IMO.

 

[WizardHawk]

Lets not get carried away now. I don't believe that the offense we've seen the last few years, necessarily stays the same down the road. Right now you got a young QB, a great RB, and a stellar defense, so you play more conservative football. The longer RW is on the team and progresses, the more the offense opens up IMO.

We have had a run first conservative offense where the QB's are told not to pass into anything even close to dangerous ever since he got here. Hasselbeck was a whole different passer under him and nowhere near as effective and T Jack was also held back. He passed a lot more when he left us. Wilson is capable of passing as much as QB's on other teams, but is being told not to. When the running game is working and we build a lead they all but shut down the passing game. We only see it in any kind of serious numbers when we are behind. And Wilson has proven he can use the passing game to overcome those deficits.

We have this offense we all get so frustrated with so much because that's exactly the way Carroll wants it. If you get rid of Bevell you will get the next guy who runs it the way Carroll wants it and we will be right back here.

 

[Screamin12th]

So to make sure I understand you then, getting rid of Bevell (or having him change his play calling at least) is the thing that would make the most improvement to this sputtering offense right? That alone would add more points/yards than either having Harvin/Rice (or other guys who can get separation), having an improved line, having Carroll allow more risk in the offense in close games, or improvements by Wilson?

don't know if you were replying to my post but i never said anything about getting rid of Bevell. I just feel that Wilson is a little off and it was going to happen sooner or later. He has been great most of the time so a slump was going to happen, now he just needs to get out of it. The Oline has not helped and the play calling has been a little vanilla and shows no faith in the offense or Russell. Time to open it back up like they did last season. They put up 50 on that Cardinals Defense last year that had basically the same players and scheme.

Yes they have played some great defenses but this offense was putting up 27+ on great defenses most of the season before the final month. they put 29 on San Fran in the first game and 34 on the Cards in AZ. The Play calling went conservative to protect leads late in the season and in my eyes that just allows teams more time to get back into the game. They are so worried about making that one mistake that they have hand cuffed themselves. This in turn has hampered Wilson and the offense and now they are just not clicking. Everyone is just a little "off" and that included the running game which fixed itself last week.

Now lets hope the harder part of the game, the passing part follows this week. Harder to execute that is. It did not help the line also that they kept force feeding them Carp when it was plain to see he was the weakest link. Had they just moved on from him sooner the line might very well be much better right now with having more time working together as a unit.

And i also do believe Not having Rice right now is hurting the team more than most fans want to admit.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

We have had a run first conservative offense where the QB's are told not to pass into anything even close to dangerous ever since he got here. Hasselbeck was a whole different passer under him and nowhere near as effective and T Jack was also held back. He passed a lot more when he left us. Wilson is capable of passing as much as QB's on other teams, but is being told not to. When the running game is working and we build a lead they all but shut down the passing game. We only see it in any kind of serious numbers when we are behind. And Wilson has proven he can use the passing game to overcome those deficits.

We have this offense we all get so frustrated with so much because that's exactly the way Carroll wants it. If you get rid of Bevell you will get the next guy who runs it the way Carroll wants it and we will be right back here.

I disagree. I don't think Pete is dead set on running a run first offense, he just feels that is the strength of the team right now. He didn't always run this type of offense in his college days and I offer this link on Palmer getting ready to break the passing record in the Pac 10 while playing for Pete as evidence.

ESPN.com: NCF - USC's Palmer close to breaking Pac-10 career passing mark

 

[WizardHawk]

Screaming, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I was trying to clarify your list. You listed play calling as the thing holding them back the most. I was just asking if you really think changing the play calling (but doing so still inside the required Carroll scheme of conservative overall play) is what would give the greatest increase to yards/points if that is all that was changed vs the other options on the list.

I am baffled that people would pick that over either improved WR's or solid pass protection. I'd see those giving a huge overall boost to yards and score even with the conservative play calling. I mean how many more points would we have scored all year with just a healthy Harvin? Even with Rice gone more than half of the season, Just adding Harvin all year would have blown this thing wide open. Changing play calls might have made a difference in a few red zone cases to me, but wouldn't come close to that kind of impact.

I just want to understand more of how those that feel that way have come to put that level of importance to that over every other part of the offense that is struggling.

 

[WizardHawk]

I disagree. I don't think Pete is dead set on running a run first offense, he just feels that is the strength of the team right now. He didn't always run this type of offense in his college days and I offer this link on Palmer getting ready to break the passing record in the Pac 10 while playing for Pete as evidence.

ESPN.com: NCF - USC's Palmer close to breaking Pac-10 career passing mark

Carroll is all over the record of saying this is what they want to run. He has said so in press conferences for years. Yes, they played a different style at USC, but I'm not sure I've heard of high power teams running conservative offenses at that level. You exploit the talent difference you have by going all at it. The NFL is different.

Since they've had lynch they have the back they wanted to build their offense around and haven't been a big pass team since. They weren't before him and got even more run first and conservative passing after.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

My theory of why Pete is running this kind of offense.

A) Hit the jackpot trading for Lynch in 2010

B) Bengals leapfrogged us in 2011 to draft Andy Dalton

So facing the fact that they would not have a franchise QB, and having hit the jackpot with Lynch, Pete and JS went a different route. Put together a great D and run the ball.

I don't think Pete is married to a conservative offense. I think just as Belichick played conservative when Brady first became a QB, but then opened up the offense as the years went by, so will Pete.

 

[Screamin12th]

Screaming, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I was trying to clarify your list. You listed play calling as the thing holding them back the most. I was just asking if you really think changing the play calling (but doing so still inside the required Carroll scheme of conservative overall play) is what would give the greatest increase to yards/points if that is all that was changed vs the other options on the list.

I am baffled that people would pick that over either improved WR's or solid pass protection. I'd see those giving a huge overall boost to yards and score even with the conservative play calling. I mean how many more points would we have scored all year with just a healthy Harvin? Even with Rice gone more than half of the season, Just adding Harvin all year would have blown this thing wide open. Changing play calls might have made a difference in a few red zone cases to me, but wouldn't come close to that kind of impact.

I just want to understand more of how those that feel that way have come to put that level of importance to that over every other part of the offense that is struggling.

I believe they get to conservative when they get a lead. This tends to slow the offense down forcing to many 3rd and longs. This is all part of "not trying to make mistakes" type of approach. I just feel they need to move away from this thinking. if you believe the team will make a mistake then they will so you got to have more faith in the players you have hand selected. They talk about putting players in the best position to succeed yet lately they are just putting them in position to not fail. Hope that clears it up for you.

Also watch some coaches tape and you will get a little sick. I hate seeing all these wide open players that Russell is missing because i have so much faith in him to always do the right thing. I feel he is not executing because he is starting to think like the coaches and doesn't want to make a mistake instead of just playing and trusting in each other. The Coaches are breeding a offense right now that is afraid to make mistakes and this in turn will hurt you. Sure try and limit those mistakes but don't breed this type of thinking into your players when they need to step up and put out 110%. They are playing within their self's right now trying to limit mistakes when they need to be playing at a much higher level.

It's time to turn it up a notch not turn it down a notch.

 

[blstoker]

I get frustrated with offense at times, but overall I have little to complain about. The offense is not actually about offense, it's about defense. The offense is designed to specifically help out the defense. It is designed to eat clock, give them rest and to score enough to allow them to perform. In games that Seattle has played this season there have been 1963 plays for 9802 yards by both teams. That's a mere 122.7 plays for 612.6 yards. Compare that to Denver, 2230 plays for 13013 yards, 139.4 plays for 813.3 yards per game.

Not only has Denver given up 1300 more yards on 84 more plays than Seattle's defense, but it's also 500 more yards allowed by Denver than Seattle's offense has gained.

In Denver, the offense is a weapon, and leaves the defense exposed. In Seattle, the offense is a shield protecting the defense, allowing it to be the weapon. Despite the exact opposite philosophies, Denver outscored opponents by 207 points, Seattle 186. No that much different.

 

[Wedgie]

Nice post blstoker.

 

[MrS]

My problem is not with the "conservativeness" of the play calling, because I do not agree with that premise at all.

is it conservative to throw the ball on 13 out of 15 third downs? is it conservative to go 5 wide with empty backfield on 3rd and short? Is it conservative to throw the ball THREE TIMES with 1st and goal inside the 5?

if we were playing conservatively, we dont throw the ball on 3rd and 3 with under 4 minutes left and the game on the line. what we are playing is stupid, or better yet, attempting to out smart the defense and in the process outsmarting ourselves.