COLLEGE FOOTBALL DIVISION REALIGNMENT

[LawDawg]

Well, I think we agree that that the recent media agreement signed by the ACC would make it difficult for another conference to poach teams, it would not preclude the top teams from leaving. TV contracts can and will be broken, especially since it would increase overall dollars.

First, a grant of rights is not a contract. That is a problem a lot of people have. With a contract, you can say screw it, I can make more over here so I will breach the contract, sue me. Damages are calculated and everyone moves on. A grant of rights means the schools no longer own their rights ... they have relinquished them. They are now owned by the conference. If the school leaves, they have nothing to offer the other conference. If the other conference goes to ESPN and says, we have UNC now, ESPN will say, show me the paper that shows UNC owns the right to their media. The new conference will say, they don't have it. ESPN will say go away and quit wasting our time. Or, if ESPN says we will televise them anyway, there would be an injunction entered so fast it would make your head spin.

Second, that is exactly what a grant of rights does ... it keeps the top teams from leaving. They own nothing of value to offer another conference. Or, better yet, the conference lets them go, they get the money for the leaving teams rights, and have one less person to split the revenue with. But, really, it keeps the teams from leaving.

I'm not saying it is impossible the entire ACC would get into a new "division" but it is highly unlikely. Will lawsuits occur? Of course but it will happen.

Actually, that is probably the only way that could happen ... all the teams would have to agree. Which is exactly why it won't happen as I discussed above.

Do you think the B1G gave a damn about the ACC's agreement when they snatched Maryland? Of course not, and neither did (does) Maryland. The long term repercussions are too substantial. Delaney's driving this bus and the only schools outside of the B1G, PAC and SEC are Texas and ND.

With all due respect, you really don't understand the difference between a contract and a grant of rights. Maryland violated a contract going to the B1G. That is the exact reason the ACC then followed the BIGXIIs grant of rights.

If I follow what you are saying, to exclude all the ACC teams, as well as all BIGXII teams except Texas is incredibly naive and ignorant. Sorry, but it really is. Maybe I am misunderstanding your last sentence.

 

[PhilSimms11]

I've heard about the 4 'super conferences' "proposal." Does anyone know how that would be done? It involves the 5 "big boy" conferences (ACC, Big 10, Big XII, Pac-12, and SEC). At the moment, those conferences have a total of 62 teams. The Pac-12 currently has 12 teams. You could add Air Force, BYU, Boise St, and....San Diego St I guess. That's fairly simple I suppose. However, what about the other 3 conferences? It seems to me there's too many tickets sold and not enough seats for that scenario to work. I just added 4 "mid-majors" to bring the total to 66. Of course, I used geographic logic to fill in the final pieces of the Pac-12 puzzle. I'm not considering (for example) West Virginia, Maryland, etc. for the Pac-12 as some might. Isn't it possible a (for example) Colorado could be left out? This is why 5 conferences fits better. It alleviates a lot of congestion. I'm all ears.

 

[Tharvot]

Geographic proximity is already out the window. Thank cable for that one.

 

[jalopy]

First, a grant of rights is not a contract. That is a problem a lot of people have. With a contract, you can say screw it, I can make more over here so I will breach the contract, sue me. Damages are calculated and everyone moves on. A grant of rights means the schools no longer own their rights ... they have relinquished them. They are now owned by the conference. If the school leaves, they have nothing to offer the other conference. If the other conference goes to ESPN and says, we have UNC now, ESPN will say, show me the paper that shows UNC owns the right to their media. The new conference will say, they don't have it. ESPN will say go away and quit wasting our time. Or, if ESPN says we will televise them anyway, there would be an injunction entered so fast it would make your head spin.

Second, that is exactly what a grant of rights does ... it keeps the top teams from leaving. They own nothing of value to offer another conference. Or, better yet, the conference lets them go, they get the money for the leaving teams rights, and have one less person to split the revenue with. But, really, it keeps the teams from leaving.



Actually, that is probably the only way that could happen ... all the teams would have to agree. Which is exactly why it won't happen as I discussed above.



With all due respect, you really don't understand the difference between a contract and a grant of rights. Maryland violated a contract going to the B1G. That is the exact reason the ACC then followed the BIGXIIs grant of rights.

If I follow what you are saying, to exclude all the ACC teams, as well as all BIGXII teams except Texas is incredibly naive and ignorant. Sorry, but it really is. Maybe I am misunderstanding your last sentence.

A grant of rights is most certainly a contract. It is a contract between a member university and the parent conference for a stated number of years. The contract will a penalty fee if broken but it can be broken. Furthermore, the penalty in the contract is relatively unenforceable and a court would determine damages depending on other factors (length of contract, years remaining, etc.)

You state that if a member university would attempt to leave, the rights would remain with the conference. That is not true. The member university would be subject to damages but is free to take said rights elsewhere.
In your example, ESPN certainly could negotiate without being subject to any tampering issues.

 

[jalopy]

As for the statement about Texas and ND, it certainly wasn't a mistake. The preference would be to have 64 teams but there is no realistic scenario where something could be arranged without those two. As much as the B1G and ND have their differences, Delaney knows the power that ND has. Texas is Texas. Nothing will get done without them. Other B12 and ACC schools certainly have a lot to offer, but no other single university could hold up a deal.

 

[jalopy]

A grant of rights is most certainly a contract. It is a contract between a member university and the parent conference for a stated number of years. The contract will a penalty fee if broken but it can be broken. Furthermore, the penalty in the contract is relatively unenforceable and a court would determine damages depending on other factors (length of contract, years remaining, etc.)

You state that if a member university would attempt to leave, the rights would remain with the conference. That is not true. The member university would be subject to damages but is free to take said rights elsewhere.
In your example, ESPN certainly could negotiate without being subject to any tampering issues.

After further review, I AM DEAD WRONG. Under IP law, a grant of rights the license of the rights would rest with the grantee unless a fiduciary breach was proven. Without that the licensee would have to sell the grant back but could not be forced to do so. The grant of rights could be fought under IP law but not under contract law.

The ACC deal runs through '25-'26. My guess is that the earliest a deal like this could take place is about 5 years after the O'Bannon ruling.

 

[LawDawg]

A grant of rights is most certainly a contract. It is a contract between a member university and the parent conference for a stated number of years. The contract will a penalty fee if broken but it can be broken. Furthermore, the penalty in the contract is relatively unenforceable and a court would determine damages depending on other factors (length of contract, years remaining, etc.)

You state that if a member university would attempt to leave, the rights would remain with the conference. That is not true. The member university would be subject to damages but is free to take said rights elsewhere.

In your example, ESPN certainly could negotiate without being subject to any tampering issues.

You could not be more wrong, and you are conflating all sorts of legal principals without understanding any of them. Actually that is not true ... you appear to have grasp of breach of contract and the damages associated with that. The problem is that a GOR is an IP concept that may be part of a contract, but it is not a contract. That you are discussing "liquidated damages" shows that you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to GORs. That is exactly why a GOR is far more solid than a contract. This guys says it well and saves me time:

Dain Estes · Asst. Professor of Music Industry and Entertainment Studies at Minnesota State University Moorhead:

Urgh! I wish more attorneys understood IP law. A GOR is a license whereby one party licenses (not pledges) their rights in their copyrights to another party for a term or for the life of the copyright. When you give someone an exclusive license, you promise that the licensee and only the licensee may exercise the right. This means that when you grant an exclusive license, even you may not exercise the granted right, nor may you authorize anyone else to do so. This is not a new idea. Examples of contracts which contain a GOR clause include recording contracts, publishing contracts, and software licensing contracts. GOR have been upheld in the past and are hard to get out of (see mellencamp v. riva music). If what you are suggesting would actually get someone out of a GOR clause, it would have been argued by now. I have not run across a case where it has been tried.

The main question here is not whether damages exist but whether the courts would allow a school to get back the IP that the conference has the exclusive right to exploit so they can re-license it to another conference. Your premise is wrong because you assume this is a pledging of rights (a promise) and not an exclusive license of rights (property interest/ control) in a copyright. While damages would come into play if a college left their conference, copyright issues control the GOR clause of the agreement. There is no question that the conference has an exclusive right to the media rights of the departing school. A conference would not be forced to sell it's license back to the college, they own it for the term of the agreement. If a conference refused to allow a school to buyback their rights then the school would have to prove that the conference breached a fiduciary duty or breached the contract. I think IP cases are the way to go if you want to crack the GOR clause.

There is a reason the ACC and the BIGXII did GORs, not contracts with exit penalties. And there is a reason that pretty much everyone agrees that the GOR shut down the whole conference expansion thing.

 

[LawDawg]

After further review, I AM DEAD WRONG. Under IP law, a grant of rights the license of the rights would rest with the grantee unless a fiduciary breach was proven. Without that the licensee would have to sell the grant back but could not be forced to do so. The grant of rights could be fought under IP law but not under contract law.

The ACC deal runs through '25-'26. My guess is that the earliest a deal like this could take place is about 5 years after the O'Bannon ruling.

Saw this after my post, and I am thinking you found the article and the comment that I quoted. I've looked deeply into this, and that article and comment posit the issue very well.

 

[jalopy]

Saw this after my post, and I am thinking you found the article and the comment that I quoted. I've looked deeply into this, and that article and comment posit the issue very well.

No, I actually contacted a friend that does a lot of legal work (not a lawyer) in the music industry. The assignment of rights issue is a common issue for them. She explained that there are ways to rescind the grant or assignment but it can be difficult. Money is usually the best way to resolve the issue. My guess is that the ACC and B12 deals would stop the poaching of teams that have occurred lately but if something like a mass secession from the NCAA were to occur, the obstacle could be overcome. That is just my gut feeling from talking with B1G officials and not from any real insights or knowledge on my part.

There is a poster (from CBS) on these boards from Wayne State (Detroit) that is knowledgeable on this subject. I wish I remembered his screen name so we could get his input.

 

[PhilSimms11]

Last season would've looked something like this...
Division-A
1)Notre Dame (12-0) vs 8)Wisconsin (8-5)*
4)Oregon (11-1) vs 5)Kansas St (11-1)

2)Alabama (12-1) vs 7)Florida St (11-2)
3)Florida (11-1) vs 6)Stanford (11-2)

Division-B
1)No Illinois (12-1) vs 8)Arkansas St (9-3)
4)Louisville (10-2) vs 5)San Jose St (10-2)

2)Boise St (10-2) vs 7)Tulsa (10-3)
3)Utah St (10-2) vs 6)Kent St (11-2)
*indicates Ohio St was ineligible

 

[WizardHawk]

You wouldn't be able to split up the Pac as you suggest. The problem is the Cali schools. They all require that they face each other every season and no one else in the Pac wants to miss chances to go down there as they are the most fertile recruiting grounds in the conference. As it stands now every team is only guaranteed one road trip to the state each year. The current split still didn't make everyone happy as it is. All 4 play each other every season and the others get the two in their own and rotate the others. You simply will never find it acceptable for all 4 to be in the same division without some complicated formula to keep everyone else happy with their road trips into that state.

 

[mrwallace2ku]

You wouldn't be able to split up the Pac as you suggest. The problem is the Cali schools. They all require that they face each other every season and no one else in the Pac wants to miss chances to go down there as they are the most fertile recruiting grounds in the conference. As it stands now every team is only guaranteed one road trip to the state each year. The current split still didn't make everyone happy as it is. All 4 play each other every season and the others get the two in their own and rotate the others. You simply will never find it acceptable for all 4 to be in the same division without some complicated formula to keep everyone else happy with their road trips into that state.

How can 1 guy be thinking so much ALL the time?

Damn PHd Fuskies...

Good read...

 

[HuskerOC]

I'd love to see the 10 conferences divided into 2 separate divisions of 5, each with a conference championship game. I know it's a dream, but I think it'd be great for college football. The 5 conference champs would get an automatic bid to the playoffs with 3 at-larges. That would make an 8-team playoff in each division. I bumped some teams "down" to Division-B (Colorado, Duke, Wake Forest, Purdue, Indiana, Kentucky). I'd have 60 teams in D-A and 68 in D-B. Again, I know it would take an act of God, but it sure would be nice. I just don't understand the resistance. Every sport under the sun has a playoff structure...except when it comes to major college football. It's baffled me for years. I know it's not about money.

Division-A
ACC North (6)--Boston College, Maryland, Rutgers, Virginia, Va Tech, West Virginia
ACC South (6)--Clemson, Florida St, Ga Tech, Miami (FL), No Carolina, No Caro St

Big-10 East (6)--Michigan, Michigan St, Ohio St, Penn St, Pittsburgh, Syracuse
Big-10 West (6)--Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Wisconsin

Big XII North (6)--Iowa St, Kansas, Kansas St, Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma St
Big XII South (6)--Baylor, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M, TCU, Texas Tech

Pac-12 East (6)--Arizona, Arizona St, BYU, Utah, Washington, Washington St
Pac-12 West (6)--Cal, Oregon, Oregon St, Stanford, UCLA, USC

SEC East (6)--Florida, Georgia, Louisville, So Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
SEC West (6)--Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, LSU, Miss St, Ole Miss
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Division-B
AAC North (7)--Army, Cincinnati, UConn, East Carolina, UMass, Navy, Temple
AAC South (7)--Duke, Houston, Memphis, SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, Wake Forest

C-USA East (6)--UAB, Appalachian St, Charlotte, Kentucky, Marshall, Old Dominion
C-USA West (6)--No Texas, La Tech, Rice, So Miss, UTEP, UTSA

MAC East (7)--Akron, Bowling Green, Buffalo, Indiana, Kent St, Miami (OH), Ohio
MAC West (7)--Ball St, Cent Michigan, East Michigan, No Illinois, Purdue, Toledo, West Michigan

MWC East (7)--Air Force, Colorado, Colorado St, New Mexico, New Mexico St, Utah St, Wyoming
MWC West (7)--Boise St, Hawaii, Fresno St, Nevada, UNLV, San Diego St, San Jose St

Sun Belt East (7)--UCF, FAU, FIU, Ga Southern, Georgia St, So Florida, Troy
Sun Belt West (7)--Arkansas St, Midd Tenn St, UL-Lafayette, UL-Monroe, So Alabama, Texas St, West Kentucky

Impossible for someone to be this fucking stupid.

5 conference champs in legit conferences and only 4 are invited.

Those 4 battle it out in Final Four format with 2 weeks between the games.

100% confidence the best of the best will win.

 

[jdwills126]

A split between the NCAA and say four conferences has gained momentum as these conferences can't or will not agree on issues like stipends and playoffs. But ultimately it will be greed that makes the split happen.

I agree with Jalopy that this is more likely to occur than the super conferences as conferences like the ACC has made it legally difficult if not impossible to leave.

The language of those contracts will then become important and if escape clauses exist if the NCAA no longer is a viable organization. A lot of legalese that will make attorneys rich no doubt.

If a 4 conference split occurs then I see super conference becoming a reality as teams from the left out conference scramble to become part of one of the 4 more lucrative conferences.

 

[geneh_33]

I've heard about the 4 'super conferences' "proposal." Does anyone know how that would be done? It involves the 5 "big boy" conferences (ACC, Big 10, Big XII, Pac-12, and SEC). At the moment, those conferences have a total of 62 teams. The Pac-12 currently has 12 teams. You could add Air Force, BYU, Boise St, and....San Diego St I guess. That's fairly simple I suppose. However, what about the other 3 conferences? It seems to me there's too many tickets sold and not enough seats for that scenario to work. I just added 4 "mid-majors" to bring the total to 66. Of course, I used geographic logic to fill in the final pieces of the Pac-12 puzzle. I'm not considering (for example) West Virginia, Maryland, etc. for the Pac-12 as some might. Isn't it possible a (for example) Colorado could be left out? This is why 5 conferences fits better. It alleviates a lot of congestion. I'm all ears.

No, Colorado won't get left out due to the tremendous TV market they bring in, which is why the PAC invited them in the first place.

The Pac 12 will not invite in more teams unless those teams can INCREASE the amount of conference payout to each Pac team as a result of them joining. So far no one besides Utah & Colorado fit that scenario. BYU has a chance but a slim one at best because the Pac aint going to rearrange their schedules so BYU wouldn't have to play on Sundays. This has been stated by the Pac Commish openly.

1. All of the Big 5 are content with what they have now. Else they would have already taken anyone else they wanted.

2. No one is going to "force" any of the Big 5 to expand or contract.

3. The only other middies with large TV markets are Army, Navy, AF and BYU. Navy has an outside chance of getting into the ACC (to replace the lost Md. TV market). Army has refused to join any conference repeatedly. AF refused to join the Big 12 because they (correctly) feel they can't compete. BYU is content to remain independent & the Big 5 do not want to make the special scheduling rules required to take them in.

So for now the Big 5 will stand pat. The SEC could always take a couple of ACC teams but with the new ACC contractual agreement in place that looks highly unlikely.

 

[geneh_33]

Furthermore, the scenario involving the Big 5 splitting away from the middies to form their own division would only result in the same conference setup we have right now. Only somebody like Navy & BYU MIGHT be given any special consideration.

Also, the MWC may be taken in with the fold, probably not, but it is at least possible. The MWC covers a lot of big TV markets that the Big 5 do not presently overlap.

 

[PhilSimms11]

Impossible for someone to be this fucking stupid.

5 conference champs in legit conferences and only 4 are invited.

Those 4 battle it out in Final Four format with 2 weeks between the games.

100% confidence the best of the best will win.

Are you saying that I'm fucking stupid? That's just rude. "5 conference champs in legit conferences and only 4 are invited." Are you under the impression that I proposed these 5 conferences only to have a 4-team playoff? If so, you need to read my post again. Read the top part. That's above the stupid conference layout I proposed.

 

[LawDawg]

A split between the NCAA and say four conferences has gained momentum as these conferences can't or will not agree on issues like stipends and playoffs. But ultimately it will be greed that makes the split happen.

I agree with Jalopy that this is more likely to occur than the super conferences as conferences like the ACC has made it legally difficult if not impossible to leave.

The language of those contracts will then become important and if escape clauses exist if the NCAA no longer is a viable organization. A lot of legalese that will make attorneys rich no doubt.

If a 4 conference split occurs then I see super conference becoming a reality as teams from the left out conference scramble to become part of one of the 4 more lucrative conferences.

I see what you are saying, but here is the problem with your argument. The schools are the NCAA ... the NCAA isn't some independent group. The schools and the NCAA are one and the same. If the schools in the 5 AQs decide that they want to split off in their own division, with their own rules (primarily paying players which the non-AQ teams can't afford), they will do so. There is nothing stopping them.

At that point, they have no more incentive than they do now to bring in non-AQ schools. If a school can't bring in money so that the pie gets bigger, they won't get an invite. The only thing you will see is Cincy, UConn, BYU and maybe a few others get into the ACC or the BIGXII. I think the BIGXII in particular has to get to 12 so they can do a CG. Then you would have 5 conferences in a division all of which play a CG. 4 team playoff for now, maybe goes to 8 for the new division championship.

You will then have a similar scenario with the remaining teams in their division.

 

[WizardHawk]

No, Colorado won't get left out due to the tremendous TV market they bring in, which is why the PAC invited them in the first place.

The Pac 12 will not invite in more teams unless those teams can INCREASE the amount of conference payout to each Pac team as a result of them joining. So far no one besides Utah & Colorado fit that scenario. BYU has a chance but a slim one at best because the Pac aint going to rearrange their schedules so BYU wouldn't have to play on Sundays. This has been stated by the Pac Commish openly.

1. All of the Big 5 are content with what they have now. Else they would have already taken anyone else they wanted.

2. No one is going to "force" any of the Big 5 to expand or contract.

3. The only other middies with large TV markets are Army, Navy, AF and BYU. Navy has an outside chance of getting into the ACC (to replace the lost Md. TV market). Army has refused to join any conference repeatedly. AF refused to join the Big 12 because they (correctly) feel they can't compete. BYU is content to remain independent & the Big 5 do not want to make the special scheduling rules required to take them in.

So for now the Big 5 will stand pat. The SEC could always take a couple of ACC teams but with the new ACC contractual agreement in place that looks highly unlikely.

I've had the discussion about the Pac going to 14, 16, etc teams with Boise fans who are delusional enough to think there is room for them many times. For all of the talk about bringing in more money everyone misses the real reason expansion just won't happen again unless they expand the schedule to add more games. RECRUITING. Adding the teams he mentioned would reduce the total number of games every team gets on the road in the state of california and for what? A chance to steal kids from Boise or some other backwater place?

It isn't going to happen. Period. Pac schools not in cali want those lucrative trips into that state to play big games in front of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the west. Recruiting isn't just a part of winning in college football, it is everything. There is no chance in hell the rest of the pac would forgo those trips for expanded conference money. EVER.

 

[LawDawg]

I've had the discussion about the Pac going to 14, 16, etc teams with Boise fans who are delusional enough to think there is room for them many times. For all of the talk about bringing in more money everyone misses the real reason expansion just won't happen again unless they expand the schedule to add more games. RECRUITING. Adding the teams he mentioned would reduce the total number of games every team gets on the road in the state of california and for what? A chance to steal kids from Boise or some other backwater place?

It isn't going to happen. Period. Pac schools not in cali want those lucrative trips into that state to play big games in front of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the west. Recruiting isn't just a part of winning in college football, it is everything. There is no chance in hell the rest of the pac would forgo those trips for expanded conference money. EVER.

Agreed. Few of the teams on the outside of the AQs right now have anything to bring. The most interesting thing will be whether the BigXII goes to 12, which I think they have to. Other than that, does the ACC pick up UConn for hoops. Cincy, you would think ends up somewhere. Other than that, I can't see other expansion.

BSU can the the kind of Division I(b)!