Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe HOF eligible

[Cedrique]

Rose: 15890 plate appearances, 79.6 WAR
Whitaker: 9967 plate appearances: 75.1 WAR

Given Whitaker's ratio of WAR-to-plate appearances, If he had had the same number of plate appearances in his carrer as Rose, he would have compiled 119.7 WAR. And is Whitaker in the HOF?

One of the dumbest statements ever on here

 

[eaglesnut]

Rose: 15890 plate appearances

Hall of Fame worthy number of appearances right there.

These were MLB plate appearances. Not your backyard. FYI

 

[navamind]

are people really arguing that Rose is not a HOF caliber player??

I think he's one of the most overrated players of all-time, but he was still an inner circle HOFer.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think he's one of the most overrated players of all-time, but he was still an inner circle HOFer.

He’s over-rated only because of his situation and how he is talked about. I do think once he gets in the hof he won’t be over-rated anymore. Probably will be underrated.

 

[PolarVortex]

Hall of Fame worthy number of appearances right there.

These were MLB plate appearances. Not your backyard. FYI

It's a pathetic HOF that thinks good, but not great and not dominant players, belong in the HOF because they compiled high-numbered statistics. Don't get butthurt. Rose isn't the only guy who might get in but shouldn't be in there. Let's start with Harold Baines. Joe Mauer, Scott Rolen, Tim Raines, Joe Gordon, Orlando Cepada, Robin Yount, Nellie Fox, Phil Rizzuto, Hal Newhauser, Ernie Lombardi, enough I'm tired. I stopped at 1983.

 

[PolarVortex]

One of the dumbest statements ever on here

How so? Because my comments butthurt you because Rose was once a Phillie? Rose was never great. What he was, was a compiler whose last 6-7 years were a drain on his teams' offense as he selfishly pursued personal goals.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It's a pathetic HOF that thinks good, but not great and not dominant players, belong in the HOF because they compiled high-numbered statistics. Don't get butthurt. Rose isn't the only guy who might get in but shouldn't be in there. Let's start with Harold Baines. Joe Mauer, Scott Rolen, Tim Raines, Joe Gordon, Orlando Cepada, Robin Yount, Nellie Fox, Phil Rizzuto, Hal Newhauser, Ernie Lombardi, enough I'm tired. I stopped at 1983.

i think most would agree that there are many players in the HOF who really dont belong... and many of us define HOF differently... But by any definition of HOF i dont see the argument for Rose NOT to be in it other than his Ban...

 

[PolarVortex]

i think most would agree that there are many players in the HOF who really dont belong... and many of us define HOF differently... But by any definition of HOF i dont see the argument for Rose NOT to be in it other than his Ban...

I just hate seeing players get in because they hit career watermarks like 3000 hits or 500 homeruns. It takes away from the integrity of the HOF.
I'll give you three case studies: Johnny Damon, Vada Pinson, and Al Oliver.
Damon retired at age 38 with 2769 hits. Never had a sniff of the HOF in the voting. But if he had hung three more years playing until he was 41 and reached 3000 hits, probably hitting paltry combined .235 over those last three years, he'd get voted into the HOF, because that is what the voters do. 3000 hits equals automatic induction.

It would have been even easier for Vada Pinson he had 2757 hits and was only 36 when he retired. Al Oliver had 2743 hits and retired at 38.

So did any of these 3 guys deserve HOF recognition if they had reached 3000 hits? Personally, I think Damon and Pinson were better than alot of guys in the HOF now.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I just hate seeing players get in because they hit career watermarks like 3000 hits or 500 homeruns. It takes away from the integrity of the HOF.
I'll give you three case studies: Johnny Damon, Vada Pinson, and Al Oliver.
Damon retired at age 38 with 2769 hits. Never had a sniff of the HOF in the voting. But if he had hung three more years playing until he was 41 and reached 3000 hits, probably hitting paltry combined .235 over those last three years, he'd get voted into the HOF, because that is what the voters do. 3000 hits equals automatic induction.

It would have been even easier for Vada Pinson he had 2757 hits and was only 36 when he retired. Al Oliver had 2743 hits and retired at 38.

So did any of these 3 guys deserve HOF recognition if they had reached 3000 hits? Personally, I think Damon and Pinson were better than alot of guys in the HOF now.

I disagree about milestones... i am a big milestone person... longevity of career is a stat as well...

But thats not even why Rose belongs in...

you bring up Damon, Pinson, and Oliver

Rose has higher career BA and OBP than Damon, Pinson and Oliver...

some of you are so fixated on WAR and OPS+... OPS gives such an advantage to power hitters...

whats interesting is if you take HOF stats from Baseball reference like the black ink test, grey ink and HOF monitor

HOF monitor- rose is 15th all time (all in top 50 are either in the HOF or SHOULD be in it)
HOF Standards- Rose is 66( all ahead of him SHOULD be in the HOF- except maybe Gary Sheffield)

Black ink- Rose is 19th


Gray ink- Rose is 35th



Black ink is a career accumulation of being the BEST at a category

Gray ink is the same as black ink but it is top 10 at a category


here is a description of all those stats

Leaderboard Glossary | Baseball-Reference.com

A glossary for leaderboard statistics on Baseball-Reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

 

[eaglesnut]

You are fucking whiny man. Rose has over 4,000 hits in the sport. Quit being a clown.

 

[PolarVortex]

I disagree about milestones... i am a big milestone person... longevity of career is a stat as well...

But thats not even why Rose belongs in...

you bring up Damon, Pinson, and Oliver

Rose has higher career BA and OBP than Damon, Pinson and Oliver...

some of you are so fixated on WAR and OPS+... OPS gives such an advantage to power hitters...

whats interesting is if you take HOF stats from Baseball reference like the black ink test, grey ink and HOF monitor

HOF monitor- rose is 15th all time (all in top 50 are either in the HOF or SHOULD be in it)
HOF Standards- Rose is 66( all ahead of him SHOULD be in the HOF- except maybe Gary Sheffield)

Black ink- Rose is 19th


Gray ink- Rose is 35th



Black ink is a career accumulation of being the BEST at a category

Gray ink is the same as black ink but it is top 10 at a category


here is a description of all those stats

Leaderboard Glossary | Baseball-Reference.com

A glossary for leaderboard statistics on Baseball-Reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

I don't follow any of that stuff other than WAR and OPS+. I don't know anything about black ink, gray ink, how it is tabulated, valued., and I don't want to know. What I do know is that Rose was surrounded any protected in the batting order by great, HOF players during the most productive years of his career. If you put a guy like Clemente in that lineup and that ballpark, he probably would have hit .400 a couple times. I'm a traditional, back-of-the-Topps-baseball-card stat guy who reluctantly embraced OPS+ and WAR only recently.

 

[Cedrique]

How so? Because my comments butthurt you because Rose was once a Phillie? Rose was never great. What he was, was a compiler whose last 6-7 years were a drain on his teams' offense as he selfishly pursued personal goals.

That's what made your statement not make any sense. You saw how Rose's WAR numbers dropped off after age 38 yet you're implying that Lou Whitaker, who retired at 38 would have put up another 44 WAR if he just hung on another 6-7 years like Rose. That is dumb, IMO.

I do regret saying it was the dumbest statement ever though. That was hyperbole by me. Obviously there have been many, many much dumber statements on this forum.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don't follow any of that stuff other than WAR and OPS+. I don't know anything about black ink, gray ink, how it is tabulated, valued., and I don't want to know. What I do know is that Rose was surrounded any protected in the batting order by great, HOF players during the most productive years of his career. If you put a guy like Clemente in that lineup and that ballpark, he probably would have hit .400 a couple times. I'm a traditional, back-of-the-Topps-baseball-card stat guy who reluctantly embraced OPS+ and WAR only recently.

my point is that WAR and OPS+ are never going to measure players like Rose accurately... so you cant ONLY look at that...

I brought up 4 HOF standard stats created by Baseball-references... Black ink and Gray ink are very simple to understand...

they are just the accumulation of all stat categories where a player is either BEST(black ink) or top 10(gray ink).... the stat categories are given point values depending on the importance of the stat...

Just brought those stats up because they are good indicators on who deserves to be in the HOF and why... they dont measure how good a player is though...