Nate Silver does the math: SGA is playing like MJ

[MAGA2024]

???? I didn't even mention stats... I highlighted the "talent" of Jordan's opponents based on MVP voting, All NBA/Defense selections, DPOY, 6th MOPY, All Star appearances, etc. during the seasons in which they faced the 90's Bulls in the Playoffs... and it's clear the Bulls faced legit competition.

Jordan had Pippen and a supporting cast of excellent role players... hardly "by far the most talent", again, during the first 3-Peat at least... and even still, since when does having the most talent automatically mean winning the Championship?

It doesn't. That's why they play the games. The Bulls were the best/most dominating team "because of" Jordan.

 

[tlance]

???? I didn't even mention stats... I highlighted the "talent" of Jordan's opponents based on MVP voting, All NBA/Defense selections, DPOY, 6th MOY, All Star appearances, etc. during the seasons in which they faced the 90's Bulls in the Playoffs... and it's clear the Bulls faced legit competition.

Jordan had Pippen and a supporting cast of excellent role players... hardly "by far the most talent", again, during the first 3-Peat... ad even still, since when does having the most talent automatically mean winning the Championship?

It doesn't. That's why they play the games. The Bulls were the best/most dominating team "because of" Jordan.

Nope.

Best player and by far best supporting cast.

 

[Edonidd]

Shaquille O'Neal made just under 6000 free throws in his hall of fame career. Steph Curry has like 3500 career freebthrows made. Damian Lillard has made just over 5000. While Reggie Miller had just over 6000 free throws.

So Shaq is a consideraby better free throw shooter than Steph. Dame Time is almost as good as Shaq. And Reggie Miller was just a slightly better shooter than Shaq.

Maybe stats don't tell the whole story?

 

[MAGA2024]

Nope.

Best player and by far best supporting cast.

That's your opinion. I, on the other hand, laid out the actual, factual awards/accolades/records of the various players/teams that Jordan and the Bulls went up against during their run, and it is clear there were many other teams just as talented from top to bottom... with Jordan the difference between the Bulls being a good, second-round team vs. a dominating juggernaut.

Why is this so difficult for you to accept when it's pretty much common knowledge to anyone who knows the game and its history?

 

[tlance]

That's your opinion. I, on the other hand, laid out the actual, factual awards/accolades/records of the various players/teams that Jordan and the Bulls went up against during their run, and it is clear there were many other teams just as talented from top to bottom... with Jordan the difference between the Bulls being a good, second-round team vs. a dominating juggernaut.

Why is this so difficult for you to accept when it's pretty much common knowledge to anyone who knows the game and its history?

You didn’t though.

You twisted and skewed things by exaggerating on sides. Using facts that support your argument while ignoring/downplaying ones that don’t.

Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc were all HOF players. Phil Jackson is arguably the GOAT coach and Jerry Krause is a HOFer in his own right.

From the first 3 peat, Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong both made all star teams while playing for the Bulls. Ron Harper never made an all star team but probably should have at least once or twice in his early career. Bill Cartwright made an all star team with the Knicks. Craig Hodges was a 3 time 3 point champ and not even the best shooter on the team (John Paxson).

On top of that, MJ played with many high level role players (John Salley, James Edwards, Steve Kerr, etc)

The Bulls were absolutely loaded. It is why Krause was a HOF GM even though he was not the guy who drafted Jordan.

 

[Picklerick 2.0]

I like the fact that Ant is getting mentioned sure....

And I havent caught all of OKC's games......

But the two really arent all that comparable at this point. Ant is good at those stats. So is Shai. But what Shai does OUTSIDE of those stats is SO MUCH more than what Ant does right now.

Shai gets more straight up assists. But I bet you he triples Ant in hockey assists.

Not exactly sure how to say it but Shai creates a gravity that Ant just doesnt. A big center when he rolls to the basketball creates gravity even if he never touches the basketball. Shai has gravity like that.

There is no doubt SGA is on another level than ant right now. He's hitting his prime and should be getting his first MVP. I can't wait to compare this two in about 3-4 years when both are squarely in their primes. Gonna be a fun ride.

 

[Ojb81]

Basketball is a sport, which you play on a basketball court.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

Increased offense today is a good argument for MJ, he was putting up 30 a night when that was far less easy to do, he was farther ahead of the league than LeBron has been (in scoring). MJ has a very good case for GOAT and that's a big part of it. However, both LeBron and Kareem have very good cases too, for other reasons.

The championships thing is a very weak argument for individual player comparisons, it's a team sport and many all time great players never won a ring, or only won 1 or 2. Yes to be in the GOAT comparison you need rings, and finals MVPs. But Jordan's 6 is not necessarily better than LeBron's 4 in terms of where they rank on these lists. LeBron has far more playoff wins and stats, and vs better opponents.

LeBron is 4-6 in the Finals with most of those Finals losses being lopsided. Most of his playoff wins came against the Leastern Conference when fewer than 30% of All NBA Selections (when you exclude LeBron and one of his teammates) were in his Conference. Outside the bubble, his playoff record as a Laker is 12-19 which only lends credence to putting an asterisk next to that ring.

All LeBron has over Jordan are empty calories.

 

[MAGA2024]

You didn’t though.

You twisted and skewed things by exaggerating on sides. Using facts that support your argument while ignoring/downplaying ones that don’t.

Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc were all HOF players. Phil Jackson is arguably the GOAT coach and Jerry Krause is a HOFer in his own right.

From the first 3 peat, Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong both made all star teams while playing for the Bulls. Ron Harper never made an all star team but probably should have at least once or twice in his early career. Bill Cartwright made an all star team with the Knicks. Craig Hodges was a 3 time 3 point champ and not even the best shooter on the team (John Paxson).

On top of that, MJ played with many high level role players (John Salley, James Edwards, Steve Kerr, etc)

The Bulls were absolutely loaded. It is why Krause was a HOF GM even though he was not the guy who drafted Jordan.

Twisted and skewed what??? lol

I took the actual awards, accomplishments and records of the players/teams ("during the exact season/s" they faced the Bulls in the playoffs) to illustrate the level of talent those teams had... you don't like the results is all; however facts are facts.

Pippen was a superstar, no question... although he wasn't fully "that guy" in 1991, and he was crippled with a back injury in 1998 (which clearly impacted his game). Rodman, like ALL the players on the Bulls, was "expected" to bring hustle and effort on Defense (again, that's not skill)... otherwise his ONLY expectation was to Rebound. He was in the very sense of the word a "role player" for the Bulls. Kukoc was also solid, no question; however his HOF justification is largely based on his days of playing in Europe (remember, it's the "Basketball" HOF not the NBA Hall...).

John Salley and James Edwards???? Hell, you might wanna throw Robert Parish in there too why don't ya. Those guys made very little if any impact... and once again, I already conceded that the second 3-Peat Bulls were more stacked than the first.

The brutal truth is that Pippen was the ONLY "non expendable" player on the Bulls' Dynasty. The other guys were Specialists and Role Players whose performances stood out because they played on the Bulls. But make no mistake, other than Pippen you could (literally) replace the ENTIRE roster and Jordan wouldn't have missed a beat... and of course we saw that unfold before our eyes with Scottie being the only constant on both 3-Peats.

So again, if you want to say the Bulls had the best 1-2 punch in the game (by far), that's one thing... but to claim they were far more talented from top-to-bottom is not credible and just not true. Their success was based on the following, in order of importance:

1) Jordan
2) Defense (doesn't require talent/skill)
3) Triangle Offense (system-oriented that MJ had to buy into in order to work)
4) Pippen
.
.
5) The rest of the team

 

[tlance]

Twisted and skewed what??? lol

I took the actual awards, accomplishments and records of the players/teams ("during the exact season/s" they faced the Bulls in the playoffs) to illustrate the level of talent those teams had... you don't like the results is all; however facts are facts.

Pippen was a superstar, no question... although he wasn't fully "that guy" in 1991, and he was crippled with a back injury in 1998 (which clearly impacted his game). Rodman, like ALL the players on the Bulls, was "expected" to bring hustle and effort on Defense (again, that's not skill)... otherwise his ONLY expectation was to Rebound. He was in the very sense of the word a "role player" for the Bulls. Kukoc was also solid, no question; however his HOF justification is largely based on his days of playing in Europe (remember, it's the "Basketball" HOF not the NBA Hall...).

John Salley and James Edwards???? Hell, you might wanna throw Robert Parish in there too why don't ya. Those guys made very little if any impact... and once again, I already conceded that the second 3-Peat Bulls were more stacked than the first.

The brutal truth is that Pippen was the ONLY "non expendable" player on the Bulls' Dynasty. The other guys were Specialists and Role Players whose performances stood out because they played on the Bulls. But make no mistake, other than Pippen you could (literally) replace the ENTIRE roster and Jordan wouldn't have missed a beat... and of course we saw that unfold before our eyes with Scottie being the only constant on both 3-Peats.

So again, if you want to say the Bulls had the best 1-2 punch in the game (by far), that's one thing... but to claim they were far more talented from top-to-bottom is not credible and just not true. Their success was based on the following, in order of importance:

1) Jordan
2) Defense (doesn't require talent/skill)
3) Triangle Offense (system-oriented that MJ had to buy into in order to work)
4) Pippen
.
.
5) The rest of the team

Thank you for proving my point.

You list actual accolades, but you downplay everyone who played with MJ, but simultaneously talk up everyone who played with LeBron.

Case in point, knocking LeBron for playing with 4 HOF players and missing the playoffs in 2022, when guys like Howard and Melo were on their last legs literally. Howard averaged 6 points a game and Davis (the one actual prime co-star) missed more than half the season.

But that is LeBron missing the playoffs with a stacked roster in your eyes.

And then everyone besides Pippen on the Bulls was “expendable”.

Total BS.

I could provide more examples, but it frankly isn’t worth my time.

 

[thunderc]

I keep looking back at this thread title and I’ll be damned Lebron is not on it every single time I look.

 

[MAGA2024]

Thank you for proving my point.

You list actual accolades, but you downplay everyone who played with MJ, but simultaneously talk up everyone who played with LeBron.

Case in point, knocking LeBron for playing with 4 HOF players and missing the playoffs in 2022, when guys like Howard and Melo were on their last legs literally. Howard averaged 6 points a game and Davis (the one actual prime co-star) missed more than half the season.

But that is LeBron missing the playoffs with a stacked roster in your eyes.

And then everyone besides Pippen on the Bulls was “expendable”.

Total BS.

I could provide more examples, but it frankly isn’t worth my time.

I'm listing the accomplishments/awards of Jordan's competition because you're claiming the Bulls were more talented by far.

Im a lifelong Chicagoan BTW, and I watched Jordan's entire career from Day 1. Yes, outside of Pippen every player on those Championship rosters was expendable because they WERE "all" replaced... and when Jordan returned he instantly took this completely new team to even greater heights than the (first) 3-Peat.

We can just agree to disagree on 2022, but that still leaves several Playoff black-eyes for LeBron vs. 0 for Jordan, with respect to losing to a team you were favored to beat, or losing to a team with a lower seed. LeBron did it 4 times.

2009: The Cavs won 66 games and were the #1 Net Rating team and the #1 seed in the league... and that doesn't happen with a weak supporting cast UNLESS the league as a whole is weak AF. After sweeping the first 2 rounds LeBron lost to a lower seed in 6 games (blowing Home Court Advantage in a Game 1 loss despite a 16-point half-time lead). Not necessarily a HUGE stain, but a series LeBron (as the best player in the game at the time) should have won.

In 2010 those same (66 win) Cavs ADDED Shaq (who was older yes BUT he was coming off an All NBA / All Star season the previous year with the Suns, so he was still an impact player... still better than any Center Jordan played alongside anyway). They ALSO added Antawn Jamison (mid season) who was averaging 21-PPG and 9-REB for Washington at the time of the trade... yet with all that talent LeBron lost (again) to a lower seed after blowing a 2-1 series lead and losing the next 3 games. LeBron in those final 3 losses: 18-53 shooting (34% from the field, including just 2-13 from long-range) and 20(!) Turnovers. This is a huge mark on his resume.

2011: No explanation needed.

2025: Lakers were the higher seed; Lakers were favored to win by Vegas and all the "experts", and heading into the series the Lakers had the best player on the floor on either team (Luka), the "supposed" GOAT, and one of the best #3 guys in the league (in Reaves). Absolutely no excuse for winning only one (1) game in the series, let alone losing with HCA.

Jordan? Never once did he have a bad series loss... so even if the Bulls were as "talented" as you claim (outside of MJ/Pip) there is no team in history you could say the same about. Every Dynasty team throughout history lost at least one series they should have won / were favored to win.. all except Jordan and his Bulls.

His game literally had no weakness, and his team success is second to none.

Total truth.

 

[tlance]

I'm listing the accomplishments/awards of Jordan's competition because you're claiming the Bulls were more talented by far.

Im a lifelong Chicagoan BTW, and I watched Jordan's entire career from Day 1. Yes, outside of Pippen every player on those Championship rosters was expendable because they WERE "all" replaced... and when Jordan returned he instantly took this completely new team to even greater heights than the (first) 3-Peat.

We can just agree to disagree on 2022, but that still leaves several Playoff black-eyes for LeBron vs. 0 for Jordan, with respect to losing to a team you were favored to beat, or losing to a team with a lower seed. LeBron did it 4 times.

2009: The Cavs won 66 games and were the #1 Net Rating team and the #1 seed in the league... and that doesn't happen with a weak supporting cast UNLESS the league as a whole is weak AF. After sweeping the first 2 rounds LeBron lost to a lower seed in 6 games (blowing Home Court Advantage in a Game 1 loss despite a 16-point half-time lead). Not necessarily a HUGE stain, but a series LeBron (as the best player in the game at the time) should have won.

In 2010 those same (66 win) Cavs ADDED Shaq (who was older yes BUT he was coming off an All NBA / All Star season the previous year with the Suns, so he was still an impact player... still better than any Center Jordan played alongside anyway). They ALSO added Antawn Jamison (mid season) who was averaging 21-PPG and 9-REB for Washington at the time of the trade... yet with all that talent LeBron lost (again) to a lower seed after blowing a 2-1 series lead and losing the next 3 games. LeBron in those final 3 losses: 18-53 shooting (34% from the field, including just 2-13 from long-range) and 20(!) Turnovers. This is a huge mark on his resume.

2011: No explanation needed.

2025: Lakers were the higher seed; Lakers were favored to win by Vegas and all the "experts", and heading into the series the Lakers had the best player on the floor on either team (Luka), the "supposed" GOAT, and one of the best #3 guys in the league (in Reaves). Absolutely no excuse for winning only one (1) game in the series, let alone losing with HCA.

Jordan? Never once did he have a bad series loss... so even if the Bulls were as "talented" as you claim (outside of MJ/Pip) there is no team in history you could say the same about. Every Dynasty team throughout history lost at least one series they should have won / were favored to win.. all except Jordan and his Bulls.

His game literally had no weakness, and his team success is second to none.

Total truth.

No.

It is a very 1 sided account of his from a homer.

And by the way, I was as big a Jordan fan as anyone growing up. Watched every game on WGN.

 

[dtgold88]

This is when/how you know you've backed a LeBron fan in the corner... they start with personal insults.

SMH

FTR I answered your question two (2) times already, "Mr. rational big fella"... lol. Go back and re-read.

Bottom line:

LeBron made the Finals 9 times (in the EC) by virtue of playing alongside 2-3 other HOF teammates in an Eastern Conference that was (arguably) at its all-time weakest... and when he reached the Finals (and actually played against legit Championship caliber opponents) he LOST 6 out of the 9 times (including 2 sweeps and 3 gentlemen sweeps - ie; 5 games).

Jordan made the Finals 6 times playing in a much tougher Eastern Conference, and when he reached the Finals he won every time in 5 or 6 games, in dominating, record-breaking fashion (with 2 of those teams being the higher seed).

I'll let you explain why you think LeBron's record of Team Success and Winning is more impressive. Needless to say I suspect I'll be waiting a long time.




What's your point?

Need to follow the rules as I told you. If you do not start out by answering the question you are wasting your time as I wont be reading your rant.

Try again though.

 

[dtgold88]

LeBron is 4-6 in the Finals with most of those Finals losses being lopsided. Most of his playoff wins came against the Leastern Conference when fewer than 30% of All NBA Selections (when you exclude LeBron and one of his teammates) were in his Conference. Outside the bubble, his playoff record as a Laker is 12-19 which only lends credence to putting an asterisk next to that ring.

All LeBron has over Jordan are empty calories.

East was pretty weak by time MJ was winding down his career (but same age or maybe even younger than MJ was with the Lakers). He ever make the playoffs in Washington?

 

[MAGA2024]

No.

It is a very 1 sided account of his from a homer.

And by the way, I was as big a Jordan fan as anyone growing up. Watched every game on WGN.

So go ahead and refute what I wrote about LeBron, if you think my points are so one-sided.

The simple truth is there's no argument for LeBron James over Jordan. None.

As players LeBron has several flaws: Below league-average FT shooter... below league-average 3-point shooter... shoots just 38% from beyond 3 feet from the basket for his career (36% in the playoffs)... inconsistent to mediocre to just plain bad Defense for at least the past 10 years... handles and footwork never great, etc., etc. Jordan? The absolute WORST thing you could say about him is that he was "just average" as a 3-point shooter (relative to league average). Otherwise he was excellent to elite to GOAT level in literally every facet of the game.

As for Team Success Jordan won every single time his team was favored/supposed to win, and/or had the higher seed AND several times he won as the lower seed. James, as has been noted, lost numerous times when he shouldn't have.

What's left? LeBron is the GOAT because he played longer and racked up better "volume" stats? Um, no... so did Kobe, Jabbar, Malone, etc.

You disagree? state your case.

 

[MAGA2024]

Need to follow the rules as I told you. If you do not start out by answering the question you are wasting your time as I wont be reading your rant.

Try again though.

Again... I answered your question two (2) times already. I won't waste MY time answering it a thrid time.

 

[dtgold88]

So go ahead and refute what I wrote about LeBron, if you think my points are so one-sided.

The simple truth is there's no argument for LeBron James over Jordan. None.

As players LeBron has several flaws: Below league-average FT shooter... below league-average 3-point shoorer... shoots just 38% from beyond 3 feet from the basket for his career (36% in the playoffs)... inconsistent to mediocre to just plain bad Defense for at least the past 10 years... handles and footwork never great, etc., etc. Jordan? The absolute WORST thing you could say about him is that he was "just average" as a 3-point shooter (relative to league average). Otherwise he was excellent to elite to GOAT level in literally every facet of the game.

As far a Team Success Jordan won every single time his team was favored/supposed to win, and/or had the higher seed AND several times he won as the lower seed. James, as has been noted, lost numerous times when he shouldn't have.

What's left? LeBron is the GOAT because he played longer and racked up better "volume" stats? Um, no... so did Kobe, Jabbar, Malone, etc.

You disagree? state your case.

wish you were not so scared to answer my question so I could read what I'm sure are some pearls of wisdom from you that I just know are completely rational and objective with no MJ slant.

 

[MAGA2024]

wish you were not so scared to answer my question so I could read what I'm sure are some pearls of wisdom from you that I just know are completely rational and objective with no MJ slant.

Scroll back and you'll read my answer to your question (twice)... then feel free to get back to me. Otherwise you're trying too hard to troll.

Weak sauce, bub.

 

[MAGA2024]

East was pretty weak by time MJ was winding down his career (but same age or maybe even younger than MJ was with the Lakers). He ever make the playoffs in Washington?

The East during the 90's was still vastly superior to the East during LeBron's run.