The Triple Double Thread

[MHSL82]

Hopefully that's the worst thing he'll ever do in his life.

Or maybe he’ll be like Morant and decide that things are too good and let’s screw things up a little bit.

 

[nuraman00]

and decide that things are too good and let’s screw things up a little bit.

I wonder if it's a part of some people's nature.

When things are good, they have to do something that then puts them under pressure, and make things not as good as before.

 

[MHSL82]

I keep seeing things about Jordan Clarkson‘s triple double where it’s the first one since Carlos Boozer in 2008. I’m glad that they broke the bad streak because our style play with Snyder and with Hardy has basically been to keep passing the ball around and around and so we don’t get a lot of assists from one player let alone that and rebounds.

But what bugs me is that they keep saying “history.” What history was made? We broke a streak and if it was history as far as long as time for a team not to have it, it’s bad history. Unless it was like the first triple double in 27 minutes from the bench or something. But if it’s just breaking a streak, that’s not “history.”

 

[nuraman00]

I agree, it's a weird stat to put out there. It's bothered me too.

I'd also say it's not Hardy or Snyder's fault. The Jazz haven't had many players capable of a triple double.'

Maybe Mitchell could have done it, but getting that many rebounds and assists are hard.

I thought Gobert would have had one, but his career high in blocks in 9, not 10+.

Olynyk seems possible, but the scoring part will be hard.

And playing enough minutes to get the rebounds too.

 

[MHSL82]

I agree, it's a weird stat to put out there. It's bothered me too.

I'd also say it's not Hardy or Snyder's fault. The Jazz haven't had many players capable of a triple double.'

Maybe Mitchell could have done it, but getting that many rebounds and assists are hard.

I thought Gobert would have had one, but his career high in blocks in 9, not 10+.

Olynyk seems possible, but the scoring part will be hard.

And playing enough minutes to get the rebounds too.

Good points and I would also like to point out that Hardy was going to take him out of the game and he said he wanted to stay in and so Hardy told him to go get one rebound and call time out. In most instances, you would not allow that to happen. You would just sit him to save him from injury. I didn’t like that he let him stay in to get that rebound. There was a video of him telling him that that I was going to post but I got lazy. But instances like that, where you’re doing really well, would maybe be times where you’re taking out of the game because the game is over.

I understand that we didn’t have a great players to get triple doubles, but we don’t have a traditional point guards where they always have the ball. And you’re probably right about Olynyk, but I’ve been surprised both with his assists, and his points on different nights. But that lining up to be both is less likely.

 

[nuraman00]

but we don’t have a traditional point guards where they always have the ball.

It's not just the Jazz. There's not many players that can play like a traditional PG.

I wonder how close Jingles was to one.

 

[nuraman00]

Expanding on the above post. It's the players and their style of play. They would play the same way on other teams too.

Most can't play a high passing game.

That's why I latched onto Haliburton, early in his rookie year. I could see he was different.

Now in his 3rd year, he's leading the league in assists. However, Indiana has the 26th ranked defense, so they will probably lose quickly in the first round of the playoffs. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if it was a short series.

Just like Deron Williams was a good passer on both the Jazz and the Nets; most players in the league can't play a high, beneficial passing game. It's not their style.

So it's not the coaches on the Jazz that have been limiting the players, it's the players.

Olynyk, for example, had shown his passing in his previous stints. So his passing on Utah is not a BIG surprise to me.

I had some hope that Horton-Tucker had some passing talent, but now, I think he's shown what he can and cannot do.

Dunn is the best guard passer on the Jazz. George still gets an incomplete from me, for now. I also need to see how he's best used, without his flaws hurting the team.

It looks like the Jazz have a lot of players with bad defensive ratings or defensive +/-. I guess that's to be expected from the 24th ranked defense.

 

[MHSL82]

That's why I latched onto Haliburton, early in his rookie year. I could see he was different.

Now in his 3rd year, he's leading the league in assists.

The way I feel about Halliburton is the same way I would feel about dating a celebrity. Sure, that would be a great opportunity, but I would ruin it. They wouldn’t be all that because I’d bring the conversation to a halt. If Haliburton were forced to play Snyders quick and often passes offense, what would his stats or play be like?

Conversely, if Snyder had someone like Haliburton, how would he change his offense? it would be silly for me to assume that Snyder wouldn’t recognize the talent he had and adapt, but still there are preferences. And there are ways of shaping a player to a degree. Not entirely, of course, but if you’re a rookie, and you need to do what the coach says, you might do something different, but maybe we didn’t pick a player like him because of that. (For a second, ignore that there aren’t that many players like him, I’m just saying we weren’t looking for that type necessarily.)

I think I’ve posted this year at some point, but there was an article talking about how Snyder’s offense was basically hot potato passing where they wanted to use passing instead of dribbling to get from place to place, and so everybody was a facilitator in someway. Relatively speaking, of course.

If I were single and clicked with a celebrity great, but otherwise, it would just be a matter of time before I was boring. Maybe 1.3 seconds?

 

[nuraman00]

The passing to get the ball to where they want might still be a good idea, but they would probably need less passes because Haliburton's passes are just better / more penetrating.

I think his talent is that he can make passes that if others don't see, and others would turn them into turnovers.

Let's see what Snyder has done in Atlanta. Since Snyder took over, Trae Young's Usage Percentage has gone down a little bit, and his assists have gone up. He's had double digit assists per game last year, and is doing so this year.

So that means he got less shooting, and more passing out of Young. (He could have also gotten less shooting and less passing; more shooting and less passing; or more shooting and more passing).

I don't even think Trae Young is as close to as great of a passer as Haliburton. But the fact that he got a little more passing out of Young, means a little bit.

I think Snyder would change his offense a little bit if he had a talent like Haliburton, just like he did a little bit with Young in Atlanta.

Even if Snyder had use more dribbling and less passing, I don't think it would lead to more assists, because the players would probably turn it over, or just still not create assists.

I don't think there's any players the Jazz have had, that showed more passing before or after the Jazz.

And if anything, he extracted passing out of Ingles, which his former teams didn't do.

One similarity between both the Jazz under Snyder, and Hawks under him, is that I don't think their defense has been anything remarkable. But I think that way about most teams, most years, the past few years.


The one thing I wonder about is how Cleveland, with Donovan Mitchell, had the # 1 defense last year. Why couldn't anyone get Mitchell to play defense like he did last year? With that said, the Cavs lost in 5 games to a bad Knicks team in the first round. So while they had a very good regular season, it was a bad playoffs, something I've said about the Jazz too, during several playoffs.

Cleveland's team defense has fallen off a little this year. But Mitchell is having a career year in steals, 1.9 per game. What does this mean? I don't know, I need to watch them more.

 

[nuraman00]

(For a second, ignore that there aren’t that many players like him, I’m just saying we weren’t looking for that type necessarily.)

It's hard to ignore this though.

These are about the only players that I think whose passing is so different, that they change the way an offense is run, from the guard spot (ignoring bigs that can pass like Sabonis, Draymond Green, Antetokounmpo, Jokic, Olynyk, and maybe even Adebayo). It's great to have those bigs too, and they change an offense the same way.

LeBron James
Luka Doncic
Tyrese Haliburton
Cade Cunningham (not 100% sure, but with his improved shooting this year, it helps his overall fit in an offense)

These are players whose passing helps at times during a game, but don't change the overall way the offense runs:

Kyle Lowry
Trae Young
Jrue Holiday
Mike Conley Jr.

These players provide unique pros and cons, passing included:

Chris Paul
Russell Westbrook
LaMelo Ball
James Harden

This player is a good passer, but not a top 7 player on a team, which limits how much he can be played:

Kris Dunn

This player is good at lobs:

Malik Monk



From the guard spot, the first four players can change an offense with their passing. None of the others can.

I think the Jazz would have wanted players like the first four if they could have them. They can't take anyone else and have them be impactful enough to change an offense. Not the Jazz, nor any other team.

I haven't seen a player that was a great passer before or after the Jazz.

 

[nuraman00]

Also, a pass is faster than a dribble. So that might be the right idea. But my larger point is that outside of four players in the NBA, no one else can pass well enough to change an offense.

I also don't like the way most teams defense, the Jazz included. I might have been able to have something another team did better, in Cleveland last year. But since they lost in the first round, in 5 games, to a bad Knicks team, it doesn't matter.

I feel like the Jazz, even going back to the Sloan days, not been able to adjust when other teams start making a lot of 3's. I don't know why, but it seems to keep happening, no matter what players or coaches are on the team.

Was your "Question for Nuraman" thread on the ESPN boards, about other teams making a lot of 3's against the Jazz defense? Or was it about the Jazz not making enough 3's on offense, compared to other teams? Are they both related?

 

[MHSL82]

Olynyk seems possible, but the scoring part will be hard.

 

[nuraman00]

I'm glad a Boston media outlet posted that. Because if it was a Utah Jazz media outlet, I would shake my head, roll my eyes, mutter at a medium volume, and make a fist. It would have been another example of making it seem like a Jazz player is better than he is, this year.

Olynyk just isn't the scorer that the other four are. Nor the rebounder. I think his playmaking is on par though.

You could play him 41 minutes a game, and he wouldn't average 10 rebounds. He'd find ways not to do it, whether it was foul trouble, etc.

I like his talent. I like his skills more than Collins. If it were me, he'd be the 3rd most important big, after Markkanen and Kessler.

I would not mind seeing him start, on some NBA teams, but I would expect him not to average double figures in points nor rebounds.

 

[nuraman00]

Sabonis, Draymond Green, Antetokounmpo, Jokic, Olynyk, and maybe even Adebayo).

I'm amending my previous post to include these guys, minus Adebayo.

Because they do change the way an offense is run, with their passing, and are one of the few. I shouldn't exclude them just because of their size.

Also, swap out Adebayo with Sengun.

Also, I'm just projecting, but someone to watch is Holgrem. He has just a good feel for the game, overall, that I could see him averaging 4 assists per game in a few years. He's already at 2.6.

Could average 3+ blocks and 3+ assists in a season? Probably. Has that ever been done?

Probably by Chamberlain. If they would have counted blocked shots. Blocked shots became a stat after Chamberlain retired.

Ok, Olajuwon did it!!! 3x. Robinson did it 3x. He even had 4.8 assists one of those years.

 

[MHSL82]

It would have been another example of making it seem like a Jazz player is better than he is, this year.

Without looking it up, guess the obvious reason why this is a ridiculous “historical” stat? (It doesn’t say historical this time, but that’s implied when you cite “since John Stockton.”)

 

[MHSL82]

Spoiler: Answer

He took and made TWO shots. Shooting 100%. ‍

 

[nuraman00]

Did he make 3 FGs or less?

 

[nuraman00]

Yup, that was it.

 

[nuraman00]

Without looking it up, guess the obvious reason why this is a ridiculous “historical” stat? (It doesn’t say historical this time, but that’s implied when you cite “since John Stockton.”)

View attachment 350674

The Jazz media department needs to be reevaluated. They're not fooling us, at least, with these stats.

I'm not going to suddenly consume more media about these players, because I saw a cool stat about how allsome (intentional) it was that a player had 10+ assists and didn't miss from the field.

They must have taken my post about "you make 100% of the shots you don't miss" way too seriously.

A better stat would be, in the NBA, how many players have achieved that stat? If they expanded the scope to that, and let's say he was one of six players in the past 20.5 years, then maybe that would mean something.

 

[nuraman00]

The Jazz should now post how many times a JAZZ player has had 10+ assists and made 0% of his FGs.

That would be cooler.