LeBron James

[dtgold88]

Can't disagree. Part of his shooting problems though go back to a lingering shoulder issue. He's had it for the better part of two seasons already and we're really not sure how far back it's gone. Safe to say he's not going to really be a threat scoring ever, but his value on THIS team is not with his point production. On others, he'd have very different value that's for sure.

I agree with that 100%. when I made my first Nance comment, BTW, I don't think I said he'd be better than Green, only wondered what he could do in that lineup in his place.

Just like other than all his techs and kicking guys in the nads if Green had been on the Lakers and current Cavs' teams many would barely know who he is.

I hope he knows this and stays put.

 

[Battlelyon]

Playoff mode LeBron fully engaged

 

[Battlelyon]

 

[trojanfan12]

I didn't want to say it. That, he's quiet, and no credit for being a good teammate, willing to change his role as needed, etc.

His injury history doesn't help him much either.

I will say though, that I have never thought the criticism of Love, and Bosh, when Lebron was in Miami, was fair to either player.

Love went through some of the same things that Bosh did in Miami. When Lebron and Bosh joined D-Wade in Miami everyone was going to sacrifice a little, but it was always going to be Bosh who had to sacrifice the most.

Same with Love. Between, him, Lebron and Kyrie...Love was always going to have to sacrifice the most.

Neither Love, nor Bosh, forgot how to play or stopped being able to play, they just both took smaller roles to win championships.

 

[trojanfan12]

On Nance and Draymond.

I like Nance and like @shopson67 I wasn't exactly thrilled when he was traded.

But Nance is an energy guy off the bench. If he continues to develop and improve, he might become a 6th man of the year candidate on a good team.

I'd say that there's an outside chance that he could become a Draymond level player later in his career, but that's his absolute ceiling, imo and he has a ways to go before that can even start to be a discussion.

 

[dtgold88]

His injury history doesn't help him much either.

I will say though, that I have never thought the criticism of Love, and Bosh, when Lebron was in Miami, was fair to either player.

Love went through some of the same things that Bosh did in Miami. When Lebron and Bosh joined D-Wade in Miami everyone was going to sacrifice a little, but it was always going to be Bosh who had to sacrifice the most.

Same with Love. Between, him, Lebron and Kyrie...Love was always going to have to sacrifice the most.

Neither Love, nor Bosh, forgot how to play or stopped being able to play, they just both took smaller roles to win championships.

I wonder what will happen to AD's game should he join Lebron. I don't think he'll have to change as much as Lebron would be 35+ by the time they are teammates.

 

[dtgold88]

On Nance and Draymond.

I like Nance and like @shopson67 I wasn't exactly thrilled when he was traded.

But Nance is an energy guy off the bench. If he continues to develop and improve, he might become a 6th man of the year candidate on a good team.

I'd say that there's an outside chance that he could become a Draymond level player later in his career, but that's his absolute ceiling, imo and he has a ways to go before that can even start to be a discussion.

Not saying you are wrong, but something tells me we'd be thinking the same of Green had he played for the same teams at the same age as Nance has.

Only way he could become what is perceived to be Dray level would be if, like Draymond, he played for this Warrior team.

 

[trojanfan12]

I wonder what will happen to AD's game should he join Lebron. I don't think he'll have to change as much as Lebron would be 35+ by the time they are teammates.

It would be interesting for sure. It would be the first time that Lebron has a big that can do what AD can do and it would also be the first time that he had a big as his #2.

 

[dtgold88]

It would be interesting for sure. It would be the first time that Lebron has a big that can do what AD can do and it would also be the first time that he had a big as his #2.

Only going by memory, but I do think Bosh was thought of almost on the same level as AD before he went to Miami. But not quite.....and Bosh wasn't the #2 there.

 

[trojanfan12]

Not saying you are wrong, but something tells me we'd be thinking the same of Green had he played for the same teams at the same age as Nance has.

Only way he could become what is perceived to be Dray level would be if, like Draymond, he played for this Warrior team.

Yeah, as others have said, fit, roles and the team around them definitely has a lot to do with how successful a guy becomes and Draymond is in a system that plays to his skills.

I think Draymond is a better player, but I do agree that if the teams they are currently on were switched, Draymond probably doesn't look quite as good as he does and Nance probably looks a little better than he does now.

But I think Draymond would still be considered the better player overall.

 

[trojanfan12]

Only going by memory, but I do think Bosh was thought of almost on the same level as AD before he went to Miami. But not quite.....and Bosh wasn't the #2 there.

Yeah, I don't think he was quite as highly thought of since AD is considered top 3-5 and I think Bosh was considered top 10.

And, as you said, he wasn't the #2 in Miami like AD would be with the Lakers.

 

[dtgold88]

Yeah, as others have said, fit, roles and the team around them definitely has a lot to do with how successful a guy becomes and Draymond is in a system that plays to his skills.

I think Draymond is a better player, but I do agree that if the teams they are currently on were switched, Draymond probably doesn't look quite as good as he does and Nance probably looks a little better than he does now.

But I think Draymond would still be considered the better player overall.

so do I and would have thought far better before this season. With all the players we've been missing this year Nance has really surprised me with his ball handling and passing ability.

I suspect with Love back his role will be diminished some again....but still hold out hope someone steps on Love's foot so he misses another month.

 

[dtgold88]

Yeah, I don't think he was quite as highly thought of since AD is considered top 3-5 and I think Bosh was considered top 10.

And, as you said, he wasn't the #2 in Miami like AD would be with the Lakers.

Have to admit I was not aware Bosh took as long as he did to blossom until I just looked at his stats. Wasn't a double double guy until year 4 and never went higher than 25 points or 11 rebounds. I was under impression for some reason he was a 25 and 12 guy and did so early in his career.

AD was a 20-10 guy by year 2.

 

[CitySushi]

I agree with that 100%. when I made my first Nance comment, BTW, I don't think I said he'd be better than Green, only wondered what he could do in that lineup in his place.

Just like other than all his techs and kicking guys in the nads if Green had been on the Lakers and current Cavs' teams many would barely know who he is.

I hope he knows this and stays put.

I think there's almost no way Draymond becomes an unknown. It's mostly due to his work ethic, his attitude and underdog mentality. He thrives off of being the guy that people underestimate. There's an interview a few years back where he recites every single player taken in front of him in the draft in order. He remembers that kind of stuff and it pushes him. He had a mini coming out party under Mark Jackson when David Lee got hurt in the playoffs against the Clippers and he had to start and played really well. Then when Kerr took over, Kerr told Draymond he didn't have any minutes for him. When David Lee got hurt the following year in training camp, it forced Kerr to start Draymond who then excelled and would not relinquish his spot even after Lee returned (who was an all-star the year previous).

Draymond to this day still gets into it with teammates and coaches all the time. It's his nature. He's going to do what he can to win, and when you do that it makes it impossible for a guy like that to go unnoticed.

 

[dtgold88]

I think there's almost no way Draymond becomes an unknown. It's mostly due to his work ethic, his attitude and underdog mentality. He thrives off of being the guy that people underestimate. There's an interview a few years back where he recites every single player taken in front of him in the draft in order. He remembers that kind of stuff and it pushes him. He had a mini coming out party under Mark Jackson when David Lee got hurt in the playoffs against the Clippers and he had to start and played really well. Then when Kerr took over, Kerr told Draymond he didn't have any minutes for him. When David Lee got hurt the following year in training camp, it forced Kerr to start Draymond who then excelled and would not relinquish his spot even after Lee returned (who was an all-star the year previous).

Draymond to this day still gets into it with teammates and coaches all the time. It's his nature. He's going to do what he can to win, and when you do that it makes it impossible for a guy like that to go unnoticed.

I'm guess you'd know him for his personality but doubt much for his play on those teams (LA and Cavs).......though there wouldn't be any meaningful games so feel like even then his exposure would be limited.

 

[CitySushi]

I'm guess you'd know him for his personality but doubt much for his play on those teams (LA and Cavs).......though there wouldn't be any meaningful games so feel like even then his exposure would be limited.

I don't know. I think there are certain guys in the NBA who thrive definitely because of the situation they ended up in. But there are certain guys that I think would have carved out their own place regardless. A guy like Jimmy Butler comes to mind. He locked himself in the gym one year, cut off his internet and cable so all he could do was just hoop. That kind of dedication to your craft makes you elite.

 

[dtgold88]

I don't know. I think there are certain guys in the NBA who thrive definitely because of the situation they ended up in. But there are certain guys that I think would have carved out their own place regardless. A guy like Jimmy Butler comes to mind. He locked himself in the gym one year, cut off his internet and cable so all he could do was just hoop. That kind of dedication to your craft makes you elite.

With his lack of offensive talent hard for me to put Dray in Butler's category. But props to him for becoming the perfect fit for the team he is on.

 

[CitySushi]

With his lack of offensive talent hard for me to put Dray in Butler's category. But props to him for becoming the perfect fit for the team he is on.

I mean, I'm probably the biggest Draymond apologist on this board, but I can see where you're coming from. There's another part of me that thinks that Draymond is the type of guy to alter his game to fit the needs of the team. Case in point at MSU he wasn't known as a world class defender. He wasn't really even known as a good one. The biggest knock on him coming into the draft was that he was too small to guard 4's and too slow to guard 3's in the NBA. He transformed his body, got in incredible shape and became one of the top 5 best defenders in the NBA. It's because that was the way he was going to get on the court and that's the way he was going to make an impact.

Jimmy Butler wasn't really a big time scorer either in college. But he dedicated himself to that end of the court and got much better. I think if Draymond felt earlier in his career the best way for him to get on the court was to be a scorer, his career would look much different right now. Not necessarily better, but we'd be having a much different conversation based on his offensive game.

 

[dtgold88]

I mean, I'm probably the biggest Draymond apologist on this board, but I can see where you're coming from. There's another part of me that thinks that Draymond is the type of guy to alter his game to fit the needs of the team. Case in point at MSU he wasn't known as a world class defender. He wasn't really even known as a good one. The biggest knock on him coming into the draft was that he was too small to guard 4's and too slow to guard 3's in the NBA. He transformed his body, got in incredible shape and became one of the top 5 best defenders in the NBA. It's because that was the way he was going to get on the court and that's the way he was going to make an impact.

Jimmy Butler wasn't really a big time scorer either in college. But he dedicated himself to that end of the court and got much better. I think if Draymond felt earlier in his career the best way for him to get on the court was to be a scorer, his career would look much different right now. Not necessarily better, but we'd be having a much different conversation based on his offensive game.

I get Dray is probably the type anyone would love if he was on their team, but I'm not so sure. Defenses beg him to shoot and he can't hit water from a boat. He's good at the things any great athlete can do if they are willing......hustle, defend, etc. I don't say that as a bad thing as most aren't willing.

 

[tlance]

I get Dray is probably the type anyone would love if he was on their team, but I'm not so sure. Defenses beg him to shoot and he can't hit water from a boat. He's good at the things any great athlete can do if they are willing......hustle, defend, etc. I don't say that as a bad thing as most aren't willing.

He is a lot better than you give him credit for though.

And he used to be a pretty proficient shooter.

There are 3 forward/centers in the entire NBA on dray's level as a playmaker and they are all MVP candidates (LeBron, Giannis, Jokic). When you combine the work ethic, the drive and the unique skill set, you have a special player.

While I don't think he is good enough to lead a random bad team to the playoffs as their star, I also think he is the type of player that can lead a locker room and change a culture. Put him on Phoenix and they are probably contentending for a playoff spot instead of Zion because they have some talent already and Draymond brings them everything they lack: toughness, defense, ball handling