More Disappointing Us or Vikes?

[j_y19]

I'm not enamored with Cuz like some of my brethren are. IMO he came up small too many times in big moments. He left too many points on the field, his turnovers can be epic and I disargee with the notion that he had no help as a Redskins QB. I see that j said he isn't top 5, but there are other posters here that believe he is. There are some posters that believe he's better than Andrew Luck. I wonder how many still belive that.

Kirk has his warts, but he continues to improve in areas as well. Some in small ways like being able to throw a damn good fade route now. He couldn't throw that route worth a damn a couple years ago. And in big ways as well. Inside pressure and simple blitzes used to fuck him up. To be fair, inside pressure can fuck up any QB, but he's gotten a lot better at beating the blitz.

I suspect he'll look a lot better next year, but concerning this year. The Minnesota Vikings he QBed weren't the same Minnesota Vikings Case Keenum QBed in 2017.

In 2017 the Vikes ran for 1915 yards, 3.9 ypc, 15 rushing TDs
In 2018 the Vikes ran for 1493 yards, 4.1 ypc, 9 rushing TDs

In 2017 the Vikes defense only allowed 1337 rushing yards, 3.6 ypc, 10 rushing TDs. They also led the NFL in scoring defense only allowing 15.8 pt per game

In 2018 the Vikes defense allowed 1815 rushing yards, 4.1 ypc, 13 rushing TDs. They also gave up damn near a TD more a game in 2018 allowing 21.3 pt per game.

Some of that increase in points was probably due in part to Cuz turnovers though. His 10 INTs and 7 lost fumbles led the NFL I believe and at least 3 of those, 2 INTs and a fum, were returned for TDs.

All that said. Yeah, I'll take Kirk at 87 mill for 3 years over Alex at 71 million for 3 years. I'll bank on Kirk continuing to improve in areas and playing to win. As opposed to Alex trying to manage a team to a win.

This is the point, @SteelersPride . The money is all play money anyway. Its about who would you rather build with if these were your two choices. And don't forget, we also gave up a very promising young CB on the rise and a 3rd round pick last year (which could have been used on a very good offensive lineman) so you have to add that into the price for AS. Is Kirk who I would pick out of 32 starting QBs to build my team? Nope. But he is a very capable QB that if given support, can lead a team deep into the playoffs. But if he is the guy that has to do it all himself every game, like he was here, then there will be times when he makes bone headed plays. He has proven that also. As has Ben, didn't he throw a final drive red zone INT against Denver this year to lose the game? And that wasn't his first this year, was it?

Having said all of this, the Cousins situation was misplayed by our Front Office for 3 straight years. Cousins agent played Allen like to fool that he is. There is no way that we should have let a guy, who someone was willing to guarantee $84M to, walk away from us without any compensation. Complete fuck up. If they were not sold on Cousins, then get him under a contract and trade his ass. Even if it was a tag and we only get a 3rd round pick, that's better than what we got. Then the Smith trade was even more fucked up. Why trade for a 35 year old QB who is about to be released from his team? WTF?? Give up two young players for the exclusive rights to a guy who really only had 2 good years on a team full of offensive weapons? And guarantee this 35 year old his contract against injury? What fucking bird brain agreed to that?? Let me guess, our next move will be to trade for Eli because we hear he wants to retire from the Giants?

 

[skinsdad62]

All that said. Yeah, I'll take Kirk at 87 mill for 3 years over Alex at 71 million for 3 years. I'll bank on Kirk continuing to improve in areas and playing to win. As opposed to Alex trying to manage a team to a win.

this in essence is the center of the debate . how you want to go about winning . good post breed

 

[skinsdad62]

This is the point, @SteelersPride . The money is all play money anyway. Its about who would you rather build with if these were your two choices. And don't forget, we also gave up a very promising young CB on the rise and a 3rd round pick last year (which could have been used on a very good offensive lineman) so you have to add that into the price for AS. Is Kirk who I would pick out of 32 starting QBs to build my team? Nope. But he is a very capable QB that if given support, can lead a team deep into the playoffs. But if he is the guy that has to do it all himself every game, like he was here, then there will be times when he makes bone headed plays. He has proven that also. As has Ben, didn't he throw a final drive red zone INT against Denver this year to lose the game? And that wasn't his first this year, was it?

Having said all of this, the Cousins situation was misplayed by our Front Office for 3 straight years. Cousins agent played Allen like to fool that he is. There is no way that we should have let a guy, who someone was willing to guarantee $84M to, walk away from us without any compensation. Complete fuck up. If they were not sold on Cousins, then get him under a contract and trade his ass. Even if it was a tag and we only get a 3rd round pick, that's better than what we got. Then the Smith trade was even more fucked up. Why trade for a 35 year old QB who is about to be released from his team? WTF?? Give up two young players for the exclusive rights to a guy who really only had 2 good years on a team full of offensive weapons? And guarantee this 35 year old his contract against injury? What fucking bird brain agreed to that?? Let me guess, our next move will be to trade for Eli because we hear he wants to retire from the Giants?

this gets dismissed by people on this board ALL the time . we gave up waaaay more then we got in return

we have a poster that comes out with , hey he was 6-4 for his 8th straight winning season . thats all well and good except we NEEDED 10-6 , and we ended up 7-9 , the same place we were last season

 

[Wamu]

Didn't read any of the comments & this has probably been said. But the Vikings had the more disappointing season. They gave all that money to Cousins & they took a step back.

I give the Redskins a pass this year due to the awful Smith injury.

 

[Mitziman]

this gets dismissed by people on this board ALL the time . we gave up waaaay more then we got in return

we have a poster that comes out with , hey he was 6-4 for his 8th straight winning season . thats all well and good except we NEEDED 10-6 , and we ended up 7-9 , the same place we were last season

What we needed was for that awful injury not to have happened to our starting quarterback. Every QB in the NFL would have suffered the same injury on that tackle, and his age had nothing to do with it.

I believe Alex would have lead the Redskins to 10 wins this season if not injured. But what can’t be argued, is KC could only win 8 with a much more talented offense in Minny.

 

[Chef99]

Both.

 

[skinsdad62]

What we needed was for that awful injury not to have happened to our starting quarterback. Every QB in the NFL would have suffered the same injury on that tackle, and his age had nothing to do with it.

I believe Alex would have lead the Redskins to 10 wins this season if not injured. But what can’t be argued, is KC could only win 8 with a much more talented offense in Minny.

perhaps you should research the vikings better on both sides of the ball

and i believe he would not have gotten us 10 wins because do to his poor play and how he padded his wins vs patsies

perhaps a younger guy speeds out of that situation , perhaps a younger guy is more flexiable

what is undisputed is we got weaker with the trade and ended up 7-9 . same as last season . something i was assured wouldnt happen

 

[Mitziman]

perhaps you should research the vikings better on both sides of the ball

and i believe he would not have gotten us 10 wins because do to his poor play and how he padded his wins vs patsies

perhaps a younger guy speeds out of that situation , perhaps a younger guy is more flexiable

what is undisputed is we got weaker with the trade and ended up 7-9 . same as last season . something i was assured wouldnt happen

Have you been watching Vikings film as well? I understand football and business just fine, thanks.

Don’t stop believin’ what you say you observed, and you didn’t. KC had ONE, that’s only ONE win against a winning team in 2018.

Alex at the age of 34, was still more athletic than most of the starting QB’s in the NFL.

Obviously, you’ve been disappointed before by things that you were assured wouldn’t happen…and still can’t seem to let it go and move on.

 

[skinsdad62]

Have you been watching Vikings film as well? I understand football and business just fine, thanks.

Don’t stop believin’ what you say you observed, and you didn’t. KC had ONE, that’s only ONE win against a winning team in 2018.

Alex at the age of 34, was still more athletic than most of the starting QB’s in the NFL.

Obviously, you’ve been disappointed before by things that you were assured wouldn’t happen…and still can’t seem to let it go and move on.

All I know is if I bash CDC. You will come . In the end the old qb got hurt and he wasn’t playing well before that

 

[Mitziman]

All I know is if I bash CDC. You will come . In the end the old qb got hurt and he wasn’t playing well before that

All I know is, this has been your agenda all along.

In the end, it’s about leadership and W’s as a QB in the NFL…and according to his teammates that’s what Alex brought to the table.

 

[Stymietee]

Fair enough , I will check when I get back home in a laptop. I’ll gladly eat crow, more just discussing things

Don't worry about it because it an position where the conversation moves from its original point to something else. Taking the time to review those game logs will reveal that Kirk Cousins did indeed QB teams that made 4th Qtr comebacks. I believe that there were 12 of them over the course of his career (I might have missed one or two) but as a stand alone that looks pretty good, unfortunately there's context to this question and that context centers around the biggest dig against Cousins...the record of the teams that he did that against. Almost all had losing records. No crow for you!

 

[SteelersPride]

Don't worry about it because it an position where the conversation moves from its original point to something else. Taking the time to review those game logs will reveal that Kirk Cousins did indeed QB teams that made 4th Qtr comebacks. I believe that there were 12 of them over the course of his career (I might have missed one or two) but as a stand alone that looks pretty good, unfortunately there's context to this question and that context centers around the biggest dig against Cousins...the record of the teams that he did that against. Almost all had losing records. No crow for you!

lol well regardless of losing records, if he lead the comebacks, thats still points in his favor IMHO

 

[skinsdad62]

All I know is, this has been your agenda all along.

In the end, it’s about leadership and W’s as a QB in the NFL…and according to his teammates that’s what Alex brought to the table.

Oh it sure has . Never said it wasn’t . In fact I promised 3 years of it . Just 2 more to go . Of course team mates are saying exactly what I would expect them to say.

 

[Stymietee]

lol well regardless of losing records, if he lead the comebacks, thats still points in his favor IMHO

Granted they are comebacks and I guess they do count for something, however, what's the biggest knock on Kirk Cousins? Certainly not his ability to have comeback games against losing teams correct? It seems that he's actually being given credit for that in the NFL where such stats give rise to the difference between going 7-9, 8-8 or 5-11 and 6-10.

The bigger more salient point is it's a team game. In that context does it really matter who the QB is when the result is, historically, 7-9, 8-8 or worse? Take Kirk Cousins and the usual numbers that he puts up or Alex Smith and his cautious style of play and put either on this team, then ask yourself, what's the difference between 7-9, 8-8 with Kirk and 7-9, 8-8 with Alex Smith? I suggest NOTHING!

In the end, we can debate numbers and all of the woulda's, shoulda's, coulda's, until the cows come home, but until there's a realization that we're talking about a mediocre franchise that historically gives mediocre results, any move at QB will result in a lateral transfer resulting in more of the same. Anybody want to debate these facts?

 

[SteelersPride]

Granted they are comebacks and I guess they do count for something, however, what's the biggest knock on Kirk Cousins? Certainly not his ability to have comeback games against losing teams correct? It seems that he's actually being given credit for that in the NFL where such stats give rise to the difference between going 7-9, 8-8 or 5-11 and 6-10.

The bigger more salient point is it's a team game. In that context does it really matter who the QB is when the result is, historically, 7-9, 8-8 or worse? Take Kirk Cousins and the usual numbers that he puts up or Alex Smith and his cautious style of play and put either on this team, then ask yourself, what's the difference between 7-9, 8-8 with Kirk and 7-9, 8-8 with Alex Smith? I suggest NOTHING!

In the end, we can debate numbers and all of the woulda's, shoulda's, coulda's, until the cows come home, but until there's a realization that we're talking about a mediocre franchise that historically gives mediocre results, any move at QB will result in a lateral transfer resulting in more of the same. Anybody want to debate these facts?

truth

 

[Mitziman]

Oh it sure has . Never said it wasn’t . In fact I promised 3 years of it . Just 2 more to go . Of course team mates are saying exactly what I would expect them to say.

I know you did. It’s just a shame that you haven’t been able to rise above this nonsense and lead this forum which you did well for so many years. I would expect AS team mates to tell the truth about what he brought to this team.

If I’m not mistaken, Chris Thompson was in tears when he was asked about how the AS injury affected this team.

 

[skinsdad62]

I know you did. It’s just a shame that you haven’t been able to rise above this nonsense and lead this forum which you did well for so many years. I would expect AS team mates to tell the truth about what he brought to this team.

If I’m not mistaken, Chris Thompson was in tears when he was asked about how the AS injury affected this team.

i am not a leader of anything . that is your first mistake . i call balls and strikes when needed

now if you are going to bust the previous qb for his play that is fine . but you have to hold others to that standard .

i have consistently held CDC to the standards that were set for the previous qb . i didnt make them , they did . i didnt change mine at all . fans are fickle but standards are standards

i have said for years that we can win with an avg qb if we put a good team around him been my trait forever , and i have never wavered

i have said you dont trade up for one guy in a draft i have said that for years and never wavered i criticized the Rg3 trade , the JC trade , the ramsey trade . it has been my consistent standard

i criticized the DMAC trade . why ? because you dont give up young resources for older declining players . Dmac 34 , and a flop . most of the early failure of the skins FO was they trade draft picks for declining talent . it has been my assessment for years and still is

i criticized the CDC trade because of the above philosophy. my standard hasnt changed but whose have ? ...........

you want to bitch about allen , snyder and cerrato but you continuously support their losing philosophy , then complain about the result .

my principals have not changed and soon i will post yet another plan to fix our team . it will be eerily similar to the previous 20 years

i have dealt with blind homers . nothing new

now for CT , i feel him , i really do , but the number one trait a player can have is availability . something that has so far eluded CT and i like him . CDC does us no good if he isnt on the field . he might never be and most likely wont be what he was if he does make it back

thats why you dont put all your eggs on an older players basket . sure the younger guy might come back from that injury but the older guys not so much .

so perhaps you should evaluate what a moderator is . he or she isnt " the leader " of the board . they can be , i guess, but they dont have to be

now one trait of a leader , since i have many years of leadership experience , is to teach . above i have shown you that
. my rampage is yet another teaching moment . what is being taught is if you fall on your sword on a crusade against someone be prepared that the same tactics will be used back at you .

now real men and woman would do either of 2 things , stand there and take their medicine or admit the error of there ways and acknowledge lesson learned . then perhaps i can move on

the other lesson i am going to teach you is blind faith in your leaders will get you killed (proverbially in this case )

it probably never occurred to the anti - KC's that the trade was wrought with bad things that could happen . the only thing they saw was the object of their scorn was gone . even to the point of kneeling down at the altar that is brucifer , and snyder

now what do we have ? a franchise now taking steps backward and the support for this falls at the feet of the ABC crowd who would sell their collective souls to brucifer to rid themsevles of the avg KC even if it meant taking AVG CDC

now another lesson in leadership for you . leaders dont say the popular things . they dont do the popular things . they choose the hard right over the easy wrong even if its unpopular . that is a part of leadership . to explain leadership to anyone would take a lot of work

but what exactly does a leader do ? at its most basic it is to get a group of people from different backgrounds to accomplish a mission or goal . what goal am i to accomplish here ?

another test of leadership is what do your people do when you are not there ? if they were winning while you were there then shouldnt they win when you are not ? good leaders get that kind of performance

now this board isnt here to be a cheer leading squad for the redskins it is here to discuss all points of view regarding the team . if it was supposed to be like extreme skins then we would have to censor opposing views

so perhaps the people who feel they need leadership from the moderator of this board should accept the lessons and move on understanding i am not even trying to be a leader

 

[Stymietee]

Fuck it, I'll lead...

 

[Mitziman]

i am not a leader of anything . that is your first mistake . i call balls and strikes when needed

now if you are going to bust the previous qb for his play that is fine . but you have to hold others to that standard .

i have consistently held CDC to the standards that were set for the previous qb . i didnt make them , they did . i didnt change mine at all . fans are fickle but standards are standards

i have said for years that we can win with an avg qb if we put a good team around him been my trait forever , and i have never wavered

i have said you dont trade up for one guy in a draft i have said that for years and never wavered i criticized the Rg3 trade , the JC trade , the ramsey trade . it has been my consistent standard

i criticized the DMAC trade . why ? because you dont give up young resources for older declining players . Dmac 34 , and a flop . most of the early failure of the skins FO was they trade draft picks for declining talent . it has been my assessment for years and still is

i criticized the CDC trade because of the above philosophy. my standard hasnt changed but whose have ? ...........

you want to bitch about allen , snyder and cerrato but you continuously support their losing philosophy , then complain about the result .

my principals have not changed and soon i will post yet another plan to fix our team . it will be eerily similar to the previous 20 years

i have dealt with blind homers . nothing new

now for CT , i feel him , i really do , but the number one trait a player can have is availability . something that has so far eluded CT and i like him . CDC does us no good if he isnt on the field . he might never be and most likely wont be what he was if he does make it back

thats why you dont put all your eggs on an older players basket . sure the younger guy might come back from that injury but the older guys not so much .

so perhaps you should evaluate what a moderator is . he or she isnt " the leader " of the board . they can be , i guess, but they dont have to be

now one trait of a leader , since i have many years of leadership experience , is to teach . above i have shown you that
. my rampage is yet another teaching moment . what is being taught is if you fall on your sword on a crusade against someone be prepared that the same tactics will be used back at you .

now real men and woman would do either of 2 things , stand there and take their medicine or admit the error of there ways and acknowledge lesson learned . then perhaps i can move on

the other lesson i am going to teach you is blind faith in your leaders will get you killed (proverbially in this case )

it probably never occurred to the anti - KC's that the trade was wrought with bad things that could happen . the only thing they saw was the object of their scorn was gone . even to the point of kneeling down at the altar that is brucifer , and snyder

now what do we have ? a franchise now taking steps backward and the support for this falls at the feet of the ABC crowd who would sell their collective souls to brucifer to rid themsevles of the avg KC even if it meant taking AVG CDC

now another lesson in leadership for you . leaders dont say the popular things . they dont do the popular things . they choose the hard right over the easy wrong even if its unpopular . that is a part of leadership . to explain leadership to anyone would take a lot of work

but what exactly does a leader do ? at its most basic it is to get a group of people from different backgrounds to accomplish a mission or goal . what goal am i to accomplish here ?

another test of leadership is what do your people do when you are not there ? if they were winning while you were there then shouldnt they win when you are not ? good leaders get that kind of performance

now this board isnt here to be a cheer leading squad for the redskins it is here to discuss all points of view regarding the team . if it was supposed to be like extreme skins then we would have to censor opposing views

so perhaps the people who feel they need leadership from the moderator of this board should accept the lessons and move on understanding i am not even trying to be a leader

That’s a hell of a synopsis dad. You’ve been the most outspoken member on this forum about AS, and well…IMO you’ve used your mod power to shut those down who don’t agree with you. Isn’t that a dictatorship?

Again, like I have stated many, many times there are only a few of those who you reference as ABC’ers that tossed you off the edge, and I’m not one of them. I respect the hell out of you as a former military man dad!...my father is a retired Navy Captain.

If all of this is nonsense you hold on to is because of the crazy stuff coach and country post, you should just let it go…you did lead folks like that in the Army didn’t you? Guys like @deanpet21 and @Stymietee where probably like your superior officers, and probably pissed you off because they have a relevant point of view that differs from yours. I get it, but coach and country?...c’mon dad.

 

[Mitziman]

Fuck it, I'll lead...

you got my vote!