With how the WCF has gone...

[logic]

Does anyone still argue that the Thunder should have thrown their money at Harden rather than paying Ibaka?

 

[bksballer89]

I do. Pretty sure they could've found a shot blocking big in the last 2 seasons

 

[BOTSLAYER]

I do, Harden plays 0 D.

 

[logic]

I do. Pretty sure they could've found a shot blocking big in the last 2 seasons

Really, shot blockers of that caliber don't just grow on trees. He is the top shot blocker in the league and one of 4 who average more than 2 a game. He changes the way the entire OKC defense plays. AND he is decent n offense. Harden, while great at offense, is a serious liability on defense. And guards who can put the ball in the bucket and play zero defense do pretty much grow on trees, at least way more common than quality big men. And OKC clearly needs the defensive side a lot more than more scoring ability and another guy who needs the ball in his hands.

 

[BOTSLAYER]

I am confused to what OP said but after 2nd post...just to clear it up, IBAKA over Harden all day.

Funny thing, google "James Harden" and the 2nd link after his Wiki is an article on why Ibaka is more important than Harden LMAO.

https://www.google.com/search?q=jam...mes+harden&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

Why Serge Ibaka matters more than James Harden | News OK

 

[Heatles84]

Really, shot blockers of that caliber don't just grow on trees. He is the top shot blocker in the league and one of 4 who average more than 2 a game. He changes the way the entire OKC defense plays. AND he is decent n offense. Harden, while great at offense, is a serious liability on defense. And guards who can put the ball in the bucket and play zero defense do pretty much grow on trees, at least way more common than quality big men. And OKC clearly needs the defensive side a lot more than more scoring ability and another guy who needs the ball in his hands.

You can teach a player to play great defense, most of it comes by exerting effort. You can't teach a player to score 25 PPG the way Harden does.

 

[logic]

You can teach a player to play great defense, most of it comes by exerting effort. You can't teach a player to score 25 PPG the way Harden does.

Really?!? That is why the league is full of great defenders and NBA scores are regularly in the 70's and 80's. </sarcasm>

 

[Pariah]

Harden's entire game is basically getting fouled and shooting 3s.

He does little else.

 

[Clayton]

Couldn't they have waited one more year to get rid of Harden? Probably still gotten a good deal and maybe wouldn't have created the Houston Rockets as a playoff team. Ibaka is a better fit for their team but he is definitely a 3rd or 4th option on offense who blocks a lot of shots and plays decent d while Harden is a 1st or 2nd option on offense who plays poorly on d.

 

[Kold]

Harden all day. That lineup with Harden at PG, with Russ and KD on the wings was near unstoppable

 

[wildturkey]

Yes, because my argument was never Ibaka over Harden. It was OKC messed up and panicked. It's two fold.

1) They overpaid Perkins. He's the one that should have been ousted and then find a way to spread the cash around to keep both Ibaka and Harden. It was possible. But OKC overvalues Perk and broke up a 4 person core that would have been damn near unbeatable.

2) OKC panicked on the trade. There was no reason to trade Harden when they did and the result was they got lowballed. At any time over that season, you're telling me they couldn't have gotten a better deal?

It was botched. Period. Whether they recover from it is a different thing all together.

 

[Kold]

Yes, because my argument was never Ibaka over Harden. It was OKC messed up and panicked. It's two fold.

1) They overpaid Perkins. He's the one that should have been ousted and then find a way to spread the cash around to keep both Ibaka and Harden. It was possible. But OKC overvalues Perk and broke up a 4 person core that would have been damn near unbeatable.

2) OKC panicked on the trade. There was no reason to trade Harden when they did and the result was they got lowballed. At any time over that season, you're telling me they couldn't have gotten a better deal?

It was botched. Period. Whether they recover from it is a different thing all together.

DITTO on both points, their loyalty to Perkins KILLED them

 

[thunderc]

I can't believe this was a serious question. If anything this series shows how right the Thunder were to go with Ibaka. Its a moot point though because Harden straight up did not want to stay in KDs and Westbrooks shadows, it wasn't happening. The Thunder had no choice, Harden might be the worst defender in the league, that is not an exaggeration.

 

[thunderc]

A team like the Thunder can't have that much of the cap tied up in 3 players with overlapping skill sets, Ibaka is the entire key to the defense.

 

[BOTSLAYER]

Harden might be the worst defender in the league, that is not an exaggeration.

I actually think Harden might be closer to the Mount Rushmore of terrible defensively than anything else right now.

I tend to think that D is 50-50-10 mental-homework-skill and he plays D like a pot head. He is often in la-la land, I doubt he studies and his skill level is undetermined because nobody has seen him focused for long enough to access it.

 

[trojanfan12]

I can't believe this was a serious question. If anything this series shows how right the Thunder were to go with Ibaka. Its a moot point though because Harden straight up did not want to stay in KDs and Westbrooks shadows, it wasn't happening. The Thunder had no choice, Harden might be the worst defender in the league, that is not an exaggeration.

That's the way I remember it. Harden wanted to be the #1 and that wasn't happening with KD and Westbrook on the team. The Thunder had to get what they could. While I tend to agree that they overvalued Perkins, Harden wasn't staying even if Perkins left.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

How does this series show anything?


We have no data how the Thunder would have performed versus SA with Harden.


It is ridiculous.


Maybe with Harden, they go 73-9....never get taken to game 7 versus a 7 seed.....


Harden is an all-NBA player who is more valuable overall.


Ibaka has a specific limited skillset that (while matching up well vs SA) is nowhere near as versatile.
Ibaka will be less than completely and utterly useless versus Indiana.
Ibaka will be marginalized more versus Miami.


Harden excels versus SA.
Harden would be an Indiana killer.
Harden would have issues with Miami.

 

[logic]

Horns, usually I am a big fan and I do respect your opinion. But in this case I have to pretty much summarily disagree with you.

How does this series show anything?

Without Ibaka give up 122 and 112. With Ibaka 97 and 92. Complete transformation of the defense played by OKC.


We have no data how the Thunder would have performed versus SA with Harden.

This may be true, but we have ample evidence that Harden plays no defense which has really been the swing for OKC. Also, even with Harden's prolific scoring he would not have made up the loss differential in games 1 and 2.


It is ridiculous.


Maybe with Harden, they go 73-9....never get taken to game 7 versus a 7 seed.....

So they would have been the #1 seed instead of the #2 and had homecourt versus SA, they still would need defense.

Harden is an all-NBA player who is more valuable overall.

Harden is an all-NBA scorer. By the stats I've looked at their value is very close, Harden may have a marginal edge.


Ibaka has a specific limited skillset that (while matching up well vs SA) is nowhere near as versatile.
This may be true on the offensive end, but not on defense. And Ibaka is not as inept at offense as Harden is at defense.
Ibaka will be less than completely and utterly useless versus Indiana.
I have to disagree. Slowing down David West would be a huge factor against Indiana. And drawing him out of the paint with Serge's midrange jumper.
Ibaka will be marginalized more versus Miami.
Miami does get penetration and is affected by shot blockers.


Harden excels versus SA.
Harden would be an Indiana killer.
But would allow Stevenson to match him.
Harden would have issues with Miami.

 

[BOTSLAYER]

Harden may be marginally worth more when we put both players on teams that are irrelevant but on teams that are trying to contend Ibaka is immensely more valuable.

And there is not question that Harden "Harden would have issues with Miami". He was non existent in 2012.

You really think IND wouldn't shut him down?

 

[RobToxin]

With how both conference finals have gone, does anyone still want to dispute the value of playing at home?

Bueller?

Bueller?