POLL Which team did better with their first two draft picks? Jaguars or Cowboys

[Across The Field]

I don't see a weakness either in his game, he looks legit... But so did Trent Richardson and Bush looked like he was playing a video game when he was out there. Hindsight is where we say though "how didn't we see that?". Like you say, and I fully agree, his vision is a joke, his quickness to the hole, a joke. But that was where he looked so so good in college. Wasn't just at Bama, his workouts for scouts were where people said he was blowing them away.

McFadden, god he looked like he was on another level, good team, bad team, he was just so good... That's what makes the draft so interesting. Richardson ruined my Gators who had a good D and just was on another level against Auburn in the SEC championship game.




WalterFootball.com: 2016 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Ezekiel Elliot

" The only serious flaw for Elliott as a prospect comes off the field. Multiple teams said he didn't interview well at the combine. He was known as, and admitted to being, a big partier at Ohio State. Teams strongly suspect that he was one of the players who former teammate Noah Spence suggested was also using ecstasy and molly (MDMA). Teammate Joey Bosa is in that group as well, and Bosa refused to take a drug test in order to hide it. Bosa told teams that Elliott had such an intense party atmosphere at their apartment that Bosa had to move out in order to get things to quiet down for him off the field. Other teammates said that Elliott can rub some the wrong way and has a strong personality.

Also, it left a bad taste in the mouth with some teams that Elliott was rather unapologetic for criticizing his team after the loss to Michigan State. When pressed, he said he did regret putting his coaches in a bad light, but team sources said it was pulling teeth for him to own up to that. Thus, teams have concerns about how Elliott will mesh in the locker room and what kind of teammate he will be in the NFL. "



That was one I saw bringing up his locker room and molly rumors. And sometimes they are just rumors. That's what this stuff almost always is right or wrong, there isn't many times when you have a clear cut huge negative with a top pick (why they aren't top picks lol). And it's crazy how such little things can be the defining cause of a players downfall. I remember seeing David Carr's scouting reports and one of the positives was he was a family man. Of course one of his downfalls with the Texans that was brought up after he washed out there was he'd be first out of practice because he had a family he wanted to spend time with. You can pass on partying too much and say no to the next Manziel... Or Brett Favre.


And I hate to pile on, I really am not but it was interesting hearing fumble rate being one of Elliott's big selling points. Again, not wanting him to be another Trent, but that was dead on what Trent Richardson was huge for... He fumbled early his freshman year in a game. That was his first, last, only fumble in college, one of his big selling points, ball security. And in the pro's.... Read through the scouting reports between Trent and Elliott though. It is scary how they are almost identical. Again, not saying he will be another Trent, but him being awful wouldn't surprise me any more than him being dominant.

I'd call his NFL comparison Adrian Richardson lol. Somewhere in there... haha. So that's where you have to rely on the guy pulling the trigger to be able to tell that apart, and I think even the best fail nearly as much as they succeed.

I hope he does work out (just wish it wasn't for Dallas), not homering this, I was against him for the same reasons on the Eagles board when the talk was him at #8 there. I want more guys like Peterson in the league.. I just think it is a historically risky pick for that position lately, one which tends to have less of an effect as other positions, and one which tends to have a shorter shelf life.

But every rookie is always compared to the boom.

It really is funny, the amount of conflicting reports that are out there. Last Thursday during the draft warm-up stuff on ESPN, Kiper was talking about how teams just fell in love with Elliott at his combine interviews, namely Dallas, Philly and Chicago.

I look through and there are some similarities, but Zeke's style and Richardson's style in college seemed not very similar. Zeke seemed to have much more wiggle to his game, while Richardson was a much more power runner, though Zeke could do that when he needed to. Of all the comparisons made to Zeke as far as the pro game goes, it seems like Edgerrin James was the most common one, and it seems fair.

Time will tell how he does, but he's in as good a spot as any RB drafted in recent years. He has an elite skillset, and is running behind an elite line with a very good QB throwing to one of the best WRs in the game to throw some of the attention off the run game. I would be much more shocked if he failed than if he succeeded, but what the hell do I know?

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Jamaal Charles: 3rd round pick
Spencer Ware: 6th round pick; waived
Charcandrick West: UDFA

Just doesn't compute to me that teams would pick a RB in the 1st round. Heck, I'd hate using a 2nd rounder on a RB. Booker for instance went in the 4th just this past draft.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

It really is funny, the amount of conflicting reports that are out there. Last Thursday during the draft warm-up stuff on ESPN, Kiper was talking about how teams just fell in love with Elliott at his combine interviews, namely Dallas, Philly and Chicago.

I look through and there are some similarities, but Zeke's style and Richardson's style in college seemed not very similar. Zeke seemed to have much more wiggle to his game, while Richardson was a much more power runner, though Zeke could do that when he needed to. Of all the comparisons made to Zeke as far as the pro game goes, it seems like Edgerrin James was the most common one, and it seems fair.

Time will tell how he does, but he's in as good a spot as any RB drafted in recent years. He has an elite skillset, and is running behind an elite line with a very good QB throwing to one of the best WRs in the game to throw some of the attention off the run game. I would be much more shocked if he failed than if he succeeded, but what the hell do I know?

Haha, and I got more from them that Zeke is the "angrier" runner reading through them.. Both seemed to be called great cutters, great vision, great agility, great power, physical backs too between the tackles, but Zeke just seemed to have a little more Marion Barber sound to his style where every hit was violent.

And you are right.. what do we know... I'll say fully I don't scout, I don't know.. I loved the Colts trade for Richardson when it happened (seemed like the perfect "fill the one hole we have" move).

 

[HammerDown]

 

[Across The Field]

Haha, and I got more from them that Zeke is the "angrier" runner reading through them.. Both seemed to be called great cutters, great vision, great agility, great power, physical backs too between the tackles, but Zeke just seemed to have a little more Marion Barber sound to his style where every hit was violent.

And you are right.. what do we know... I'll say fully I don't scout, I don't know.. I loved the Colts trade for Richardson when it happened (seemed like the perfect "fill the one hole we have" move).

Oh Zeke can definitely run angry, I guess I just saw him use more elusiveness, while it seemed Richardson normally relied more on being a downhill runner. They profile similarly size-wise, for sure. They both were great between the tackles backs in college, as well.

Damnit, now you have me worried with these Richardson comparisons. I guess the big difference is between the ears. It also seems like Zeke has a MUCH better support system in his personal life than Richardson did.

 

[Across The Field]

...it moved.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Oh Zeke can definitely run angry, I guess I just saw him use more elusiveness, while it seemed Richardson normally relied more on being a downhill runner. They profile similarly size-wise, for sure. They both were great between the tackles backs in college, as well.

Damnit, now you have me worried with these Richardson comparisons. I guess the big difference is between the ears. It also seems like Zeke has a MUCH better support system in his personal life than Richardson did.

I'm not saying he will be. You can find a bust that reminds you of a boom every time and vice versa. It is crazy how there is next to nothing you can truly count on to rely on when scouting college players and that makes sense I guess, you really are looking at so little in such a bad light to evaluate.

What did he face? 8 or so ranked teams which still aren't close to NFL level talent, in an offense that doesn't really translate to the NFL so well and is known to be explosive every year? Put a guy in Shanahan's scheme 10 years ago and he'd look like a stud against NFL defenses and convince a team to give up piles for him (sometimes more than once... cough cough )... Heck my Eagles got suckered in on Jerome Harrison who truly looked great for a handful of games vs. real NFL defenses there in Cleveland.

You saw Derek Anderson vs. actual NFL defenses for a year straight. 550 passes vs. NFL defenses... Then Derek Anderson for the rest of his career. If that year couldn't define who he'd be as an NFL player how could seeing Cam throw 280 passes convince you of more or less?

 

[Clayton]

Jamaal Charles: 3rd round pick
Spencer Ware: 6th round pick; waived
Charcandrick West: UDFA

Just doesn't compute to me that teams would pick a RB in the 1st round. Heck, I'd hate using a 2nd rounder on a RB. Booker for instance went in the 4th just this past draft.

To even make a comparison to what Dallas is doing you can go back to the Dick Vermeil Chiefs and their badass oline. One of the great all-time run offenses but also probably one of the worst defenses of all-time.

Chiefs also drafted Larry Johnson in rd1 but the did just fine when they had Priest Holmes (a UDFA pickup from another team) who went all-pro 3 times. Johnson had a great year but Holmes had the better career imo.

Dallas needs to invest in defense.

 

[Across The Field]

I'm not saying he will be. You can find a bust that reminds you of a boom every time and vice versa. It is crazy how there is next to nothing you can truly count on to rely on when scouting college players and that makes sense I guess, you really are looking at so little in such a bad light to evaluate.

What did he face? 8 or so ranked teams which still aren't close to NFL level talent, in an offense that doesn't really translate to the NFL so well and is known to be explosive every year? Put a guy in Shanahan's scheme 10 years ago and he'd look like a stud against NFL defenses and convince a team to give up piles for him (sometimes more than once... cough cough )... Heck my Eagles got suckered in on Jerome Harrison who truly looked great for a handful of games vs. real NFL defenses there in Cleveland.

You saw Derek Anderson vs. actual NFL defenses for a year straight. 550 passes vs. NFL defenses... Then Derek Anderson for the rest of his career. If that year couldn't define who he'd be as an NFL player how could seeing Cam throw 280 passes convince you of more or less?

Well to be fair, I thought Anderson was horrible even when he had his "Pro Bowl" year. If we had a good QB that year, we would've probably been a 12-14 win team. 4 of their 6 losses were by six points or less. 19 INTs, good lord. If Cam goes down, Carolina is in deep trouble.

I'm interested to see how both Zeke and Carlos Hyde do coming from Urban's system. They're different running backs but both seem to have excellent pro skillsets. I feel bad for Hyde being stuck in San Fran, but maybe he can salvage a decent year in Chip's offense.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Well to be fair, I thought Anderson was horrible even when he had his "Pro Bowl" year. If we had a good QB that year, we would've probably been a 12-14 win team. 4 of their 6 losses were by six points or less. 19 INTs, good lord. If Cam goes down, Carolina is in deep trouble.

I'm interested to see how both Zeke and Carlos Hyde do coming from Urban's system. They're different running backs but both seem to have excellent pro skillsets. I feel bad for Hyde being stuck in San Fran, but maybe he can salvage a decent year in Chip's offense.

Yeah but you get where I am going. He looked legit for his first year as a starter. Sure turnovers a bit high taking chances when they were behind, but he looked like he got it out quickly, made good reads, used his weapons very well, and was doing it with a poor D until the tail end of the year (not buying 12 wins with that defense especially early on). 5-4 record in one score games too, so while they did lose some close ones they won others. Really it was his finish to the year that cooled me a bit on him, but he started out so hot. First 9 or 10 games. And that's more than you see a lot of college QB's for in a LOT better situation.

But you can do that time and again in the NFL with guys.. Foles that year in Philly. If he played like that in college he'd have gone #1 overall and he was doing it against NFL defenses.

 

[Oldschool739]

Vote now and discuss!

Well, it's defense against offense with the first pic, and I think Ramsey will mean more to the Jags than Elliott does to the Boys...
Only in the sense that the Boys could have taken a rb in the 2nd or 3rd and still had a dominating run game with that Oline.....
And Ramsey may well be a shut down corner for the Jags....Granted it all has to be proven yet !!
And Jack has a much better chance of playing and being productive this yr than J.Smith, I believe they have said already that he probably won't see the field this yr at all....
So Ramsey and Jack are the most valuable picks IMO....
Now remember, I am a Professor and I know everything !!!

 

[Across The Field]

Yeah but you get where I am going. He looked legit for his first year as a starter. Sure turnovers a bit high taking chances when they were behind, but he looked like he got it out quickly, made good reads, used his weapons very well, and was doing it with a poor D until the tail end of the year (not buying 12 wins with that defense especially early on). 5-4 record in one score games too, so while they did lose some close ones they won others. Really it was his finish to the year that cooled me a bit on him, but he started out so hot. First 9 or 10 games. And that's more than you see a lot of college QB's for in a LOT better situation.

But you can do that time and again in the NFL with guys.. Foles that year in Philly. If he played like that in college he'd have gone #1 overall and he was doing it against NFL defenses.

You're making a lot of valid points, I definitely respect your view on these sort of things. Great conversation man.

I'm hoping like hell Elliott has a lot more AP in him than Richardson, but I can still see why people thought it was the wrong pick. That said, I don't really know if Ramsey was necessarily much more of a slam dunk in terms of taking them where they need to be. I was looking back at the drafts of DBs drafted into the league since 2000, and only one defensive back drafted in the top 15 (Earl Thomas) has helped his team win a SB, while many of them have been busts. It's just such a damn crapshoot.

 

[HammerDown]

 

[Clayton]

I was looking back at the drafts of DBs drafted into the league since 2000, and only one defensive back drafted in the top 15 (Earl Thomas) has helped his team win a SB, while many of them have been busts. It's just such a damn crapshoot.

I think the first DB every year is batting about .500 in the past decade. 4 pro bowlers, 1 too soon to tell and 5 misses as far as I checked.

I was going to make a similar comparison to RBs but there haven't been enough top RB prospects recently to make a comparison.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

You're making a lot of valid points, I definitely respect your view on these sort of things. Great conversation man.

I'm hoping like hell Elliott has a lot more AP in him than Richardson, but I can still see why people thought it was the wrong pick. That said, I don't really know if Ramsey was necessarily much more of a slam dunk in terms of taking them where they need to be. I was looking back at the drafts of DBs drafted into the league since 2000, and only one defensive back drafted in the top 15 (Earl Thomas) has helped his team win a SB, while many of them have been busts. It's just such a damn crapshoot.

Thanks, you too, I learned more about both of those backs today or at least scouts opinions on them than I planned on lol.

It was tough, maybe moving back would have been their best option, but you have to have a buyer if you want to sell. In the end none of this will matter, it all comes down to what they do.

Interesting quote there by Ed Werder.. I think we get a bit caught up in now where everything today is the "best ever"... I mean 2nd overall has had some good players especially LB's.. Poz, DQuell Jackson, Chris Spielman, and of course Bobby Bell who kind of defined the super athletic LB position and was a HOFer and NFL champ. And Jim Taylor was a 2nd overall in the 2nd round.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

I think the first DB every year is batting about .500 in the past decade. 4 pro bowlers, 1 too soon to tell and 5 misses as far as I checked.

I was going to make a similar comparison to RBs but there haven't been enough top RB prospects recently to make a comparison.

Yeah it is... No perfect thing to use... I went with top 5 backs before, kinda ugly there lately. But so hard as there's time's where there was no top back really..

Top backs would be...

Gurley !
Sankey
Gio Bernard
Trent Richardson
Mark Ingram
CJ Spiller
Knowshon Moreno
McFadden
Peterson !
Reggie Bush

I'd say 2 hits (could call Gurley too soon), hard to call any of the others hits, but some aren't exactly misses either.

Kinda forgot how high Spiller went.. Fell in love with that elite speed. Did have that one year though. But not really comparable as you say...



Kind of crazy how the RB position has dropped.. Even with the higher value and teams picking them higher in the past, a top 10 drafted back was a good bet for a while to hit 10k rush yards.

1994-2004 you had Faulk, Kijana, Biakabatuka, Phillips, Fred Taylor, Enis, Ricky, Edge, Thomas Jones, Jamal Lewis, LT. Bold hit 10k yards. Talk about all or nothing.. No middle ground there.

2005-2015 you had Caddilac, Cedric, Ronnie Brown, Bush, AD, McFadden, Spiller, Trent Richardson, and Gurley.. Bold hit or has a realistic chance at 10k yards. (Bush/McFadden about halfway there, Spiller 1/3 of the way).

My guess, and that's all this is, is speed is a huge factor now with spreading out the game. Teams aren't going to use Emmitt or Bettis etc.. after they can no longer break a big play anymore. Not worth the long term deals, and of course the split backfields where you can use the talents of two different backs in their best situations.

Top 5 corners going back you have Ramsey, Peterson, Terrence Newman, Quentin Jammer, Charles Woodson, Shawn Springs, Bryant Westbrook, Terrell Buckley, Bruce Pickens, Todd Lyght..

That's not a bad list when looking at the elite picks.. Pickens was a bust (juco transfer who was all about the combine). Westbrook... that achilles injury did him in, because he was having an elite year right up to that point and was looking good before. Rest are long term good to great corners.

 

[Texas Jefe]

whether it works out or not, one thing is for certain: Elliott is not Trent Richardson.

Richardson was not even very impressive in college. He always looked slow footed to me. Yes he was successful, and just about every player on that squad was an NFL player...

He had/has a habit of running into the backs of his blockers. Not a huge problem in college, because the holes were huge. But in the NFL, he did/does it all the time.

Maybe Elliott will be huge failure, I dont know. But if a team wanted him, he was going to go fast. Not just the Cowboys looking at him.

 

[purguy12]

And as we can see, the scouts ignored Richardson's lack of vision and overall character flaws, things Zeke has in spades. I remember the Richardson pick as a Browns fan, and I wasn't thrilled about it but I was fine with it. I would've been thrilled with Zeke because he's just overall a much more complete back than Richardson. Also, how is AP "compact"? Isn't he like 6'2"? Also, to be fair, Minnesota drafted Peterson and then messed up badly in providing him any help. It's like Lebron on the Cavs during his first 7 years. Nobody doubts he is one of the all-time greats, but when you surround him largely with shit, you can only go so far.

I guess I look at Zeke as potentially the missing piece that can actually take Dallas' offense over the top. They need help on defense, you're right, but it's hard to justify spending three first round picks in 4 years on defensive backs. Honestly, that's not what wins you championships - just ask the Eagles or the Jets. I think if Bosa was there, they would've taken him. He is a perfect scheme fit there. That said, I just don't think it was a bad pick. As you aid, it's important to protect the QB - that is undoubtedly one of Zeke's biggest strengths.

I dont know about that, did you see what Elliot was wearing at the draft. Big time Character issues. LOL

 

[Across The Field]

I dont know about that, did you see what Elliot was wearing at the draft. Big time Character issues. LOL

I know, man. Crazy disrespectful to the time-honored tradition of NFL draftees dressed in sophisticated suits

 

[purguy12]

I know, man. Crazy disrespectful to the time-honored tradition of NFL draftees dressed in sophisticated suits

U know I was joking. LOL Man you need to lighten up. No offense you have a big man crush on Elliot. U need to chill out. Its getting sad.