When will Lebron pass Jordan?

[tlance]

LOL @ the Celtics not being better with Kyrie and Gordon, you really can't help yourself can you? That's an asinine thing to say. You're telling me they wouldn't be better with a starting lineup of Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford? LOL, you really do hate Kyrie don't you?

The fact that the Celtics made it this far without their two best players shows you just how weak the East really was this year. They really had no business beating Philly and shouldn't beat the Cavs either.

I'm not going out of my way to knock LeBron. It's just that if you are going to compare him to the greatest player of all time then he needs to be judged on a higher standard. I don't think its asking for too much to expect LeBron to get past the Celtics. No, this wouldn't be a major stain on his career it would just make it the 4th time in his career he lost a playoff series as the favorite which is not exactly a good thing.

And if playing well and losing is ok to you then why knock Jordan for doing the same thing? All I hear from LeBron fanboys like you is how Jordan lost to the Pistons or Celtics despite being clearly the best player on the floor and how that was and indictment against him. (and Jordan was playing against all time great teams with hall of famers, not a Celtic team without 2 of its stars) But, now that LeBron is experiencing the same thing (against lesser competition), all of a sudden its not a bad thing, instead, its something he should be given credit for, its a joke. You can't have it both ways.

I didn't say they wouldn't be better.

I said they wouldn't be much better. Big difference.

I talked to a couple friends who are Celtic fans and they both said the ball movement is much better with Rozier. You also gravely underestimate the impact Smart and Morris have defensively.

With all those guys heathy, it means fewer minutes for key guys who have been the heart and soul of this run. And we are talking about Kyrie and Hayward here. Both are allstars. Neither has had the impact of a truly elite player. Both are very nice pieces, not franchise cornerstones.

 

[tlance]

Also, what more do honestly think the Celtics could accomplish with Kyrie and Hayward? Do you think they are a 70 win team on the level of Golden State?

Because I sure don't.

This current Celtic team is as good or better than anybody in the East. With or without those 2, that is as far as they go. But if it makes you feel better and gives you a reason to criticize a great player, then go ahead.

Everybody who has watched the games knows this version of the Celtics is a very formidable team. They will defintely be a tougher test for GS than Cleveland would. But neither stands a chance to win more than a game. That has nothing to do with LeBron's greatness.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

Also, what more do honestly think the Celtics could accomplish with Kyrie and Hayward? Do you think they are a 70 win team on the level of Golden State?

Because I sure don't.

This current Celtic team is as good or better than anybody in the East. With or without those 2, that is as far as they go. But if it makes you feel better and gives you a reason to criticize a great player, then go ahead.

Everybody who has watched the games knows this version of the Celtics is a very formidable team. They will defintely be a tougher test for GS than Cleveland would. But neither stands a chance to win more than a game. That has nothing to do with LeBron's greatness.

They are 'formidable' because they play in a weak conference and they would get destroyed in the Finals so how formidable are they really? The Cavs should be able to put this team away. (and I think they will)

Again, you keep trying to downplay the Celtics missing their two best players...is this really the hill you wanna die on?

 

[flyerhawk]

I didn't say they wouldn't be better.

I said they wouldn't be much better. Big difference.

I talked to a couple friends who are Celtic fans and they both said the ball movement is much better with Rozier. You also gravely underestimate the impact Smart and Morris have defensively.

With all those guys heathy, it means fewer minutes for key guys who have been the heart and soul of this run. And we are talking about Kyrie and Hayward here. Both are allstars. Neither has had the impact of a truly elite player. Both are very nice pieces, not franchise cornerstones.

I honestly feel that Marcus Smart has been the Celtics MVP. His effort and impact has been incredible.

 

[flyerhawk]

They are 'formidable' because they play in a weak conference and they would get destroyed in the Finals so how formidable are really? The Cavs should be able to put this team away. (and I think they will)

Again, you keep trying to downplay the Celtics missing their two best players...is this really the hill you wanna die on?

Why do you keep bringing the Celtics missing Hayward and Irving? Why is that relevant to the discussion?

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Bottom Line

The difference between Jordan and Lebron as far as public perception goes, is as follows (and Ive lived through both eras)

Back in Jordans' day, he had plenty of haters, especially here in New York....But to a man, every single one them had to acknowledge the absolute greatness they are witnessing, the hate stemmed from his greatness

With Lebron? His haters go to such ridiculous lengths to hate him, that they actually diminish how great he is, usually by using the most senseless measures.......Basically people are almost lying to themselves, convincing themselves that they arent really seeing what they are.......People are missing out on the Lebron era, it should be appreciated, you may not see it again in your lifetime

Jordan will always be measured in comparison by TEAM accomplishments, because quite frankly he could not do the things on a basketball court that Lebron can..Period

I found it interesting Steve Kerr recently said "i could never play in todays NBA with these athletes".......Think that speaks volumes when it comes to this comparison

 

[Raw_Bee808]

Why do you keep bringing the Celtics missing Hayward and Irving? Why is that relevant to the discussion?

I thought you were doing that "you're too good to talk to me" gimmick, what happened to that? Now you always wanna jump in with some stupid questions, make up your mind.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Jordan will always be measured in comparison by TEAM accomplishments, because quite frankly he could not do the things on a basketball court that Lebron can..Period

Yes, and Isaiah Thomas can't do the things Shaq could.

They played two completely different positions.

Are you honestly saying Lebron is INDIVIDUALLY superior to Jordan? Because that's a load of horse shit!

 

[flyerhawk]

I thought you were doing that "you're too good to talk to me" gimmick, what happened to that? Now you always wanna jump in with some stupid questions, make up your mind.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I respond when I see something I want to respond to.

You don't like having your points challenged do you?

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Yes, and Isaiah Thomas can't do the things Shaq could.

They played two completely different positions.

Are you honestly saying Lebron is INDIVIDUALLY superior to Jordan? Because that's a load of horse shit!

What exactly did Jordan do that Lebron can't?

 

[Raw_Bee808]

I have no idea what you are talking about. I respond when I see something I want to respond to.

You don't like having your points challenged do you?

I obviously don't mind having points challenged and I try to respond (respectfully) to everyone unless I feel they are being disrespectful towards me.

Seriously people, the Celtics are missing their two best players that makes them a weaker team. Guys are being asked to play roles (young, inexperienced players too) and minutes they were never expected to and yet, this is somehow being spun into a positive for them which I find hilarious. The Cavs should beat this team and have no excuses if they don't, I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.

 

[trojanfan12]

Bottom Line

The difference between Jordan and Lebron as far as public perception goes, is as follows (and Ive lived through both eras)

Back in Jordans' day, he had plenty of haters, especially here in New York....But to a man, every single one them had to acknowledge the absolute greatness they are witnessing, the hate stemmed from his greatness

With Lebron? His haters go to such ridiculous lengths to hate him, that they actually diminish how great he is, usually by using the most senseless measures.......Basically people are almost lying to themselves, convincing themselves that they arent really seeing what they are.......People are missing out on the Lebron era, it should be appreciated, you may not see it again in your lifetime

Jordan will always be measured in comparison by TEAM accomplishments, because quite frankly he could not do the things on a basketball court that Lebron can..Period

I found it interesting Steve Kerr recently said "i could never play in todays NBA with these athletes".......Think that speaks volumes when it comes to this comparison

Been through both eras, plus Magic/Bird, etc.

I was not an MJ fan. In fact, I used to say he was ruining the game of basketball because of his iso's etc. However, I also knew that I was seeing arguably the greatest individual basketball player I had ever seen.

While MJ received his fair share of hate, he was also very smart about how he "marketed" himself and we didn't know a lot of the things that were going on behind the scenes. Even if we did though, it likely wouldn't have had as much of a negative impact as it does with Lebron because, as @tlance pointed out to me once, MJ was more charismatic than Lebron.

As for Lebron, I don't like him either, but to me, there is no doubting how great he is. Personally, I have him at #4 all time.

Part of the hate Lebron receives is self inflicted. He makes passive/aggressive tweets, throws his teammates under the bus and loves him some drama. "Lebron fatigue" seems to be a real thing. Also, Lebroniacs and Cavs fans tend to also go overboard on how great he is. That adds to it and gets the haters even more dug in.

Statements like MJ couldn't do the things on the court that Lebron can are an example. We don't know if MJ could or not because it's not what he was asked to do/was needed from him.

It's why comparisons between MJ and Lebron, as far as how they play(ed), are kind of silly because Lebron's style of play is much more like Magic than MJ.

 

[trojanfan12]

What exactly did Jordan do that Lebron can't?

Go 6-0 in the finals?

 

[Wamu]

What exactly did Jordan do that Lebron can't?

Dunk from the FT line.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Been through both eras, plus Magic/Bird, etc.

I was not an MJ fan. In fact, I used to say he was ruining the game of basketball because of his iso's etc. However, I also knew that I was seeing arguably the greatest individual basketball player I had ever seen.

While MJ received his fair share of hate, he was also very smart about how he "marketed" himself and we didn't know a lot of the things that were going on behind the scenes. Even if we did though, it likely wouldn't have had as much of a negative impact as it does with Lebron because, as @tlance pointed out to me once, MJ was more charismatic than Lebron.

As for Lebron, I don't like him either, but to me, there is no doubting how great he is. Personally, I have him at #4 all time.

Part of the hate Lebron receives is self inflicted. He makes passive/aggressive tweets, throws his teammates under the bus and loves him some drama. "Lebron fatigue" seems to be a real thing. Also, Lebroniacs and Cavs fans tend to also go overboard on how great he is. That adds to it and gets the haters even more dug in.

Statements like MJ couldn't do the things on the court that Lebron can are an example. We don't know if MJ could or not because it's not what he was asked to do/was needed from him.

It's why comparisons between MJ and Lebron. as far as how they play(ed), are kind of silly because Lebron's style of play is much more like Magic than MJ.

Ive said it here before myself, that Lebron was always more Magic than Jordan......From a physical standpoint, I never felt that Jordan could be the triple double machine that Lebron is, even if he was asked to do it

But i think the fact that Jordan never had to do the heavy lifting that lebron seemingly always has to do, is also a big difference...When you look at the numbers of most any postseason series he ever has played in, he will lead his team in points/rebounds and assists, and thats just crazy

 

[Wamu]

Ive said it here before myself, that Lebron was always more Magic than Jordan......From a physical standpoint, I never felt that Jordan could be the triple double machine that Lebron is, even if he was asked to do it

But i think the fact that Jordan never had to do the heavy lifting that lebron seemingly always has to do, is also a big difference...When you look at the numbers of most any postseason series he ever has played in, he will lead his team in points/rebounds and assists, and thats just crazy

I have always thought the MJ/LeBron comparison was unfair to LeBron (or anyone else for that matter). Like you said LeBron's game is more similar to Magic's.

He's the best all around player I've ever watched though.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

Been through both eras, plus Magic/Bird, etc.

I was not an MJ fan. In fact, I used to say he was ruining the game of basketball because of his iso's etc. However, I also knew that I was seeing arguably the greatest individual basketball player I had ever seen.

While MJ received his fair share of hate, he was also very smart about how he "marketed" himself and we didn't know a lot of the things that were going on behind the scenes. Even if we did though, it likely wouldn't have had as much of a negative impact as it does with Lebron because, as @tlance pointed out to me once, MJ was more charismatic than Lebron.

As for Lebron, I don't like him either, but to me, there is no doubting how great he is. Personally, I have him at #4 all time.

Part of the hate Lebron receives is self inflicted. He makes passive/aggressive tweets, throws his teammates under the bus and loves him some drama. "Lebron fatigue" seems to be a real thing. Also, Lebroniacs and Cavs fans tend to also go overboard on how great he is. That adds to it and gets the haters even more dug in.

Statements like MJ couldn't do the things on the court that Lebron can are an example. We don't know if MJ could or not because it's not what he was asked to do/was needed from him.

It's why comparisons between MJ and Lebron. as far as how they play(ed), are kind of silly because Lebron's style of play is much more like Magic than MJ.

 

[flyerhawk]

I obviously don't mind having points challenged and I try to respond (respectfully) to everyone unless I feel they are being disrespectful towards me.

Seriously people, the Celtics are missing their two best players that makes them a weaker team. Guys are being asked to play roles (young, inexperienced players too) and minutes they were never expected to and yet, this is somehow being spun into a positive for them which I find hilarious. The Cavs should beat this team and have no excuses if they don't, I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.

Regardless of whether the Celtics would be a much better team with Hayward and Irving or not, they are still playing really well. Is it enough to beat Lebron James and a bunch of league average players? We'll find out.

But to pretend that this Celtics team is some husk of a team because they don't have a guy who basically never played for them and another guy who has been out for 4 months seems pretty silly.

Oh and they have the best coach in basketball who exploits other teams weaknesses really well.

 

[trojanfan12]

Ive said it here before myself, that Lebron was always more Magic than Jordan......From a physical standpoint, I never felt that Jordan could be the triple double machine that Lebron is, even if he was asked to do it

I disagree. I think he could have, he didn't need to. Of course, the game was played differently in his era too, which also makes a difference.

But i think the fact that Jordan never had to do the heavy lifting that lebron seemingly always has to do, is also a big difference...When you look at the numbers of most any postseason series he ever has played in, he will lead his team in points/rebounds and assists, and thats just crazy

It depends on your definition of heavy lifting, imo. Lebron, for the most part, hasn't had to carry the scoring load that MJ did. Which may also be due to MJ's era.

You can make many of the same arguments for Magic being better than MJ as you can Lebron. But again, it was a different era with a different style of play.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

Regardless of whether the Celtics would be a much better team with Hayward and Irving or not, they are still playing really well. Is it enough to beat Lebron James and a bunch of league average players? We'll find out.

But to pretend that this Celtics team is some husk of a team because they don't have a guy who basically never played for them and another guy who has been out for 4 months seems pretty silly.

Oh and they have the best coach in basketball who exploits other teams weaknesses really well.

To argue that they wouldn't be better with those two is really silly.

And yes, coaching is where the Celtics have their biggest advantage over the Cavs, especially in-game coaching.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

I obviously don't mind having points challenged and I try to respond (respectfully) to everyone unless I feel they are being disrespectful towards me.

Seriously people, the Celtics are missing their two best players that makes them a weaker team. Guys are being asked to play roles (young, inexperienced players too) and minutes they were never expected to and yet, this is somehow being spun into a positive for them which I find hilarious. The Cavs should beat this team and have no excuses if they don't, I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.

Celtics are a far better 'team" with or without those 2 guys

Cavs have the far better player

Celtics are getting contributions on both ends from every player that enters these games, Cavaliers have gotten zero on either end from so many guys in these playoffs that are getting significant minutes