Top 15 Players by Position SHORTSTOP

[Omar 382]

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. George Davis
4. Arky Vaughan
5. Cal Ripken
6. Luke Appling
7. Derek Jeter
8. Barry Larkin
9. Lou Boudreau
10. Alan Trammell
11. Bill Dahlen
12. Joe Cronin
13. Robin Yount
14. Hughie Jennings
15. Pee Wee Reese

Where you place Bill Dahlen and Pee Wee Reese is 100% contingent upon your trust and general evaluation of defensive metrics and/or contemporary readings from those who watched them. I DO think, however, that whatever judgement call you make on valuing on their style of play, Dahlen has to be ahead of Reese.

Ernie Banks played more games at 1B, so he's not on the list. He would have been pretty low (11-14) anyway, due to his underwhelming defense and just "pretty good" .359 wOBA, which is due to his .330 OBP. Fun fact though, a lot of people think he has the highest ISO among qualified shortstops. He is actually second, A-Rod is first if you count him a shortstop (he has more games there than at third).

Arky Vaughan is just a hell of a player, and commonly overlooked on shortstop lists. Aside from having a bad ass name, he is tied for the best offensive season by wRC+ for a shortstop ever. In 1904, Nap Lajoie played 44 games at shortstop, but more at second base, so I do not count him. In 1935, Arky Vaughan hit .385/.491/.607 (remember, as a shortstop), good for a 194 wRC+ and .493 wOBA. Manny Ramirez never had a wOBA higher in any of his seasons. (Honus Wagner was the one who tied Vaughan with a 194 wRC+ in 1908).

Alan Trammell was a great player, and should be in the HOF, but I think you're retroactively overrating him if you place him any higher (or lower, for this matter) than 8 or 9.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

interesting... can you tell me how Cal ripken is ranked higher than Derek Jeter in your metrics.... I understand a defensive heavier one... But offensively, I just don't see it...

 

[navamind]

Jeter: .310/.377/.440, 119 wRC+, .360 wOBA
Ripken: .270/.340/.447, 112 wRC+, .346 wOBA

Jeter was a better hitter, but I wouldn't say he blows him out of the water either. You also have to wonder how much Ripken's numbers were affected by playing through various injuries during his streak.

I don't know if Ripken was 20+ wins better than Jeter like WAR suggests, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that Ripken's defense outweighs Jeter's hitting/baserunning.

One thing I won't get is the "Ripken's overrated!!1" trope. Just going by his offense alone, his career 112 wRC+ makes him one of the better hitting shortstops of all-time, and that's not accounting for the fact he hit that over nearly 13000 PA. He has several Gold Gloves to his name, but going by Total Zone, he rates as one of the best defensive shortstops of all-time.

 

[CitySushi]

If you're factoring in defense in these rankings, Ozzie Smith has to be on here somewhere. 15 time all-star, with 13 gold gloves.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Jeter: .310/.377/.440, 119 wRC+, .360 wOBA
Ripken: .270/.340/.447, 112 wRC+, .346 wOBA

Jeter was a better hitter, but I wouldn't say he blows him out of the water either. You also have to wonder how much Ripken's numbers were affected by playing through various injuries during his streak.

I don't know if Ripken was 20+ wins better than Jeter like WAR suggests, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that Ripken's defense outweighs Jeter's hitting/baserunning.

One thing I won't get is the "Ripken's overrated!!1" trope. Just going by his offense alone, his career 112 wRC+ makes him one of the better hitting shortstops of all-time, and that's not accounting for the fact he hit that over nearly 13000 PA. He has several Gold Gloves to his name, but going by Total Zone, he rates as one of the best defensive shortstops of all-time.

Oh, I don't question any ranking with Ripken being better... I just know Omar is heavily offensive minded with his rankings... really not sure how much he weighs in defense, but it has been shown in his other rankings that it is just not significant(As SUSHI mentioned theres no OZZIE)... that's why I was wondering how he had Ripken higher than Jeter...

And, I agree with the idiocy of the over-rated on Ripken... But I do think that his "playing through injuries" should hurt him AS much as it helps him... he basically sacrificed Himself and his team for his team and his ego...

Question is, if he did take rests at least some, how much better would he have been... IF he was that much better then wouldn't the Orioles have been better too?? But he was always better than his replacement, even at a weaker ripken, so his team was always better with him...

 

[navamind]

Oh, I don't question any ranking with Ripken being better... I just know Omar is heavily offensive minded with his rankings... really not sure how much he weighs in defense, but it has been shown in his other rankings that it is just not significant(As SUSHI mentioned theres no OZZIE)... that's why I was wondering how he had Ripken higher than Jeter...

And, I agree with the idiocy of the over-rated on Ripken... But I do think that his "playing through injuries" should hurt him AS much as it helps him... he basically sacrificed Himself and his team for his team and his ego...

Question is, if he did take rests at least some, how much better would he have been... IF he was that much better then wouldn't the Orioles have been better too?? But he was always better than his replacement, even at a weaker ripken, so his team was always better with him...

Good point.

 

[HammerDown]

LOL @ including Derek Jeter

He was pedestrian at best.

 

[Omar 382]

LOL @ including Derek Jeter

He was pedestrian at best.

What?

 

[Omar 382]

LOL @ including Derek Jeter

He was pedestrian at best.

You call a 71.8 WAR and 119 wRC+ from a shortstop "pedestrian at best"?