Top 15 Players by Position SECOND BASEMAN

[Omar 382]

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Nap Lajoie
3. Eddie Collins
4. Joe Morgan
5. Charlie Gehringer
6. Bobby Grich
7. Frankie Frisch
8. Chase Utley
9. Joe Gordon
10. Roberto Alomar
11. Jackie Robinson
12. Jeff Kent
13. Robinson Cano
14. Craig Biggio
15. Ryne Sandberg

Notes:

Lajoie/Collins is a classic baseball debate. I like Lajoie more so maybe I'm biased, which I try really hard not to be, but it happens. I do think he is a better player.

Robinson was a hell of a player. I think a lot of people forget that because of the whole Civil Rights thing. Just offensively, among qualified second baseman, he's 6th in OBP (.409), 7th in SLG (.474), and 3rd in wOBA (.406), which many of you know is one of my favorite catch-all statistics. By all accounts, he was great defensively, with Fangraphs agreeing, and he was obviously versatile. I remember reading a Bill James book in which he said that due to current imperfect defensive statistics we may never know, but he thinks Robinson may have been the greatest defensive player of all time, at any position. Obviously subjective, and obviously one guy's opinion, but interesting nonetheless.

Lastly, as @MilkSpiller22 pointed out, I care more about offense than defense almost always, and I think most sabermetricians agree with me, for reasons I won't get into at this exact moment. For this reason, Jeff Kent made it in while Willie Randolph and Cupid Childs and others did not.

Oh, and I think Craig Biggio is overrated. I also hate him, but that's besides the point. I think he's overrated.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I have Joe Morgan as 1B and Rogers Hornsby as 1A... I know sabremetrics isn't big on the SB and baserunning, but I am a fan of the metric, probably overvalue it a little...


I used to be big on Collins but thanks to Obxyankee and his 32 tournament a while back Collins was lowered on my list significantly(maybe not compared to second baseman but certainly vs all players)...


But I am not high on lajoie at all...

I will tell you, when I do my analysis, the first thing I do is look at their 162 game averages and put him into an ideal lineup, where would he be ideally batting... and then when I go further, I will weigh things differently depending on where I think he should bat...
dead ball era players are hard to evaluate this way since they don't hit many HRs, but I will compensate for that...

 

[Omar 382]

I have Joe Morgan as 1B and Rogers Hornsby as 1A... I know sabremetrics isn't big on the SB and baserunning, but I am a fan of the metric, probably overvalue it a little...


I used to be big on Collins but thanks to Obxyankee and his 32 tournament a while back Collins was lowered on my list significantly(maybe not compared to second baseman but certainly vs all players)...


But I am not high on lajoie at all...

I will tell you, when I do my analysis, the first thing I do is look at their 162 game averages and put him into an ideal lineup, where would he be ideally batting... and then when I go further, I will weigh things differently depending on where I think he should bat...
dead ball era players are hard to evaluate this way since they don't hit many HRs, but I will compensate for that...

It sounds like you're spending a little too much time on counting statistics. How do you rate Sam Crawford among RF? I haven't made the list yet, but I guarantee you I will place him 6-10 even without having his Fangraphs page in front of me.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It sounds like you're spending a little too much time on counting statistics. How do you rate Sam Crawford among RF? I haven't made the list yet, but I guarantee you I will place him 6-10 even without having his Fangraphs page in front of me.

I haven't made a list either... But just like in MVP voting, I like to measure both TEAM dependent(Runs,RBIs, others) and team independent stats(my version of RC)... I also rank players heavily on their best season over their whole careers...

 

[Omar 382]

I haven't made a list either... But just like in MVP voting, I like to measure both TEAM dependent(Runs,RBIs, others) and team independent stats(my version of RC)... I also rank players heavily on their best season over their whole careers...

No offense. Ugh......

 

[mr.hockey4242]

No Dozier?

Meh.

 

[broncosmitty]

Chase Utley...

You homer. It shoulda been Sweet Lou...

 

[Omar 382]

Chase Utley...

You homer. It shoulda been Sweet Lou...

Whitaker would probably be 16th-18th if I did a top 20

 

[broncosmitty]

Whitaker would probably be 16th-18th if I did a top 20

That ain't cuttin it.

 

[4thstreet]

Chase Utley...

You homer. It shoulda been Sweet Lou...

I too,though whitaker would be top 15.
Him and Tramell were fun to watch

 

[Omar 382]

Lou's a great player, I just like Utley more. I could get into my reasons, but I think it would be boring to everyone

 

[broncosmitty]

I too,though whitaker would be top 15.
Him and Tramell were fun to watch

One helluva duo!

And two of the best players not in the HOF. (Omar has another of the best that isn't in, ahead of Utley, so I can't complain too much.)

 

[broncosmitty]

Lou's a great player, I just like Utley more. I could get into my reasons, but I think it would be boring to everyone

I'm all ears.

(Id most likely only have two or three different, with some shuffling.)

 

[Omar 382]

I'm all ears.

(Id most likely only have two or three different, with some shuffling.)

Alright, when I'm evaluating two hitters, I almost always look at their offensive production first. I care about defense, but unfortunately, I don't trust much of the statistics we have for it like I do offense, so I usually only use it as a sort of tie-breaker. I'm not saying that I don't value defense (although it is objectively less valuable than offense), but I just don't have enough faith in UZR/150 to make or break a guy. And it gets even more muddled when you have to look at TZ for players in the 1910's. I also look at base running, but I think that that is also imperfect.

(As an example of a defensively superior yet offensively inferior player I would take over another; Travis Jackson over Raul Ibanez. Ibanez is clearly the better hitter, but all metrics point to Jackson being so superior defensively at a more important position that WAR puts him over 20 wins ahead of Ibanez).

I truly think Utley gets underrated

A. Because people don't think he played good defense, which just about every defensive metric agrees with, as imperfect as they are
B. Because people think CPB is freaking New Yankee Stadium 2.0, which, aside from home runs, it's really not
C. Because he's still playing (the "It Was Written" effect- when that shit came out in '96, everyone thought it was just so-so, now everyone regards it as a classic. Also know as the "John Carpenter's 'The Thing'" effect).
D. Because he hit in a lineup with Howard, Rollins, Werth, and even Burrell

Chase Utley is a great hitter. He has a career line of .279/.361/.472, good for a .360 wOBA and (the most important "single" stat to me) a 121 wRC+, good for 23rd all time among second baseman. Both of those rates are higher than Whitaker (.353 wOBA, 118 wRC+). Utley, in significantly less PA (7,288 for Utley; 9,967 for Whitaker) has better counting sabermetrican stats. His Offense is at 258.7 vs. 204.8 for Whit. His defense is at 131.4 to 127.1. His BsR is at 70.9 to Whitaker's -2.7.

The only thing Utley is trailing in is WAR, where he's 5.1 wins behind Lou, which he might surpass before his career's done; and that's with ~2,500 less career PA (remember WAR is a counting stat). So it's close, but I'm taking Utley. Plus, he's just a tough son of a bitch, dipping Grizzly and hitting home runs.

 

[broncosmitty]

Alright, when I'm evaluating two hitters, I almost always look at their offensive production first. I care about defense, but unfortunately, I don't trust much of the statistics we have for it like I do offense, so I usually only use it as a sort of tie-breaker. I'm not saying that I don't value defense (although it is objectively less valuable than offense), but I just don't have enough faith in UZR/150 to make or break a guy. And it gets even more muddled when you have to look at TZ for players in the 1910's. I also look at base running, but I think that that is also imperfect.

(As an example of a defensively superior yet offensively inferior player I would take over another; Travis Jackson over Raul Ibanez. Ibanez is clearly the better hitter, but all metrics point to Jackson being so superior defensively at a more important position that WAR puts him over 20 wins ahead of Ibanez).

I truly think Utley gets underrated

A. Because people don't think he played good defense, which just about every defensive metric agrees with, as imperfect as they are
B. Because people think CPB is freaking New Yankee Stadium 2.0, which, aside from home runs, it's really not
C. Because he's still playing (the "It Was Written" effect- when that shit came out in '96, everyone thought it was just so-so, now everyone regards it as a classic. Also know as the "John Carpenter's 'The Thing'" effect).
D. Because he hit in a lineup with Howard, Rollins, Werth, and even Burrell

Chase Utley is a great hitter. He has a career line of .279/.361/.472, good for a .360 wOBA and (the most important "single" stat to me) a 121 wRC+, good for 23rd all time among second baseman. Both of those rates are higher than Whitaker (.353 wOBA, 118 wRC+). Utley, in significantly less PA (7,288 for Utley; 9,967 for Whitaker) has better counting sabermetrican stats. His Offense is at 258.7 vs. 204.8 for Whit. His defense is at 131.4 to 127.1. His BsR is at 70.9 to Whitaker's -2.7.

The only thing Utley is trailing in is WAR, where he's 5.1 wins behind Lou, which he might surpass before his career's done; and that's with ~2,500 less career PA (remember WAR is a counting stat). So it's close, but I'm taking Utley. Plus, he's just a tough son of a bitch, dipping Grizzly and hitting home runs.

That still ain't cuttin' it.

Lol.

I don't like to give any merit to UZR. It tried to sell me on the idea Andy Dirks was a top four left fielder when anyone that watched him knew was prolly third best on his own team. And I have no idea how defensive stats can be created prior to the late 80's. Unless it's off film, where the hell are the numbers coming from?

I hold several of your bullet points against Utley. The era, the lineup, the short window of peak (its not really that short)and that he's still playing. Those rate stats have nowhere to go but down.
(Milk should real mention JAWS.)
I'm also most likely a great example of an Utley hater. But I don't hate him more than I hate Jeff Kent.

But I won't complain too much. You have Gehringer high enough to please my nearly 89 year old Grandmother. The Mechanical Man is still her favorite player ever. (He pumped her gas once, since that's what he did in the offseason. And inn the mornings during homestands.)

 

[Voltaire26]

Hornsby is an easy #1, he may be the best baseball player of all time. Gehringer should be higher (maybe #2) and "Sweet" Lou Whitaker should have been a top 15. I may have a little home town biased, but fuck it ... Gehringer and Whitaker were really good.