THE REFS - the 538 nerds weigh in

[wildturkey]

What's not real is opinion that isn't backed by facts.

And you're not using all of what's available to you because you are arguing without context. You're claiming the refs are worse without taking into account the fact that we have orders of magnitude more replays and discussion of games than we've ever had in history.

Replay doesn't automatically make things better. For example, several times over the years the NFL has gotten themselves worked up on what is and isn't a catch via replay that they've had to re-write the rule multiple times. That's not to say its replay's fault, just that they get lost in the weeds despite it. So just because there's ample technology doesn't automatically mean the officiating is the best. And like I said earlier, we've had all the things we've got now for at least 10 years. There's more frequent discussion of it over the last couple of years. That would point to me that there's something going on.

On a decline since when tho? Give me a starting time for me to quantity with regards to the present.

Timeline would be over the last couple of seasons. There's more talk about it during this time, maybe moreso this year specifically. When you got quieter guys like FVV going on a rant and getting popped for a fine, you kinda start taking notice of things more.

 

[tlance]

No you didn't. You've never talked about changing the system the way you're alluding to here. You're completely pulling this out of thin air here.

Of course you don't care because it blows up what you were saying.

Bullshit.

I have talked about how they need to change the system multiple times.

You are completely wrong.

 

[tlance]

Where does he mention it as his core argument? I re-read the thread to make sure before I posted. He mentioned cameras one time, but not in a way he's trying to spin it. If that is what he really meant the first time, it didn't come across that way clear enough

Dude.

You are talking about my posting history on this topic.

I made a couple short comments in response to you on your specific comments.

You talked about the “stance I always take”

And then claim that I didn’t say anything about ways to improve the system in this thread.

Be better than that.

 

[tlance]

I never said it was the worst its ever been. I've said there's been a decline. I'm not just basing this on what I see. I'm factoring in more players and coaches speaking out about it. More segments about in NBA media whether its written, podcasts, shows, etc. General fan discussions on NBA reddit, Twitter, social media. That's all observational and anecdotal data I'm talking about. It's not like I'm pulling this out of thin air because there's a bad call here or there. I mean we've even had mild mannered players speak out about it and get fined about it so there's something there. It's possible its all perception that's started to feed in on itself but the NBA could put a stop to that if they were more forthcoming with data, standards, and processes. Like how I mentioned the 92% to 95% part in the 538 piece. That number needs more context.

And like I have always said.

The perception is that officiating is worse because of all the social media attention.

You don’t think coaches and players see that too?

 

[eaglesnut]

And like I have always said.

The perception is that officiating is worse because of all the social media attention.

You don’t think coaches and players see that too?

I don't read much social media and I know the reffing sucks donkey balls from watching.

 

[eaglesnut]

Why are you so angry about this? Don't like disagreement?

Angry? lol what a chicken shit response

 

[eaglesnut]

Myth #1 is a total strawman. Not one reasonable person is stating they have to be perfect all the time. But there has been a decline in quality if you watch the game. The piece mentions they don't release the raw accuracy (which would definitely show whether its true or not) but just says in recent years it hovers around 92 to 95%. Ok, yeah. But compared to what? Have they always been that way? What if they've been 97 to 98% say 8, 10, 15 years ago and now are at 92%? Doesn't even have to be that. What if its like they said and they've been 95% but have strung together 92% for a few seasons. That's still a decline that's noticeable. This has been my argument all along. Not that they aren't perfect. There will be misses. But that there's been a decline in quality. In the NBA specifically, they've had a lot of older officials retire over the last couple of years and brought in newer officials. They just aren't up to snuff (yet) of what it has been in the past. That can be expected given the situation, but its not crazy to point it out.The players, current and older, also mention how the newer officials don't communicate well like they older officials did too, which is affecting the game as well in regards to technical fouls and such. This isn't just a oh fans are mad thing, calls have always been missed situation that can be just handwaved away because reffing is hard. It's a real thing that you can see and players/coaches have picked up on and talked about. It's not awful or a crisis, but it is something.


Also, small tangent. Wtf is this quote? While baseball does have a theoretical strikezone, its always largely been subjective the the ump. Like everyone who has ever played knows each ump is slightly different calling balls and strikes. Not the best example to use there

The guys at 538 don't write good articles, they get good attention. It's a business model not a scientific endeavor.

 

[eaglesnut]

It's his go to pivot. Tlance is basically Captain Ref. No matter the sport, no matter how bad a call is, and no matter how consistently you see bad calls, the go to response is always some version of "reffing is hard, there will be blown calls *shoulder shrug*."

If there are "always blown calls" then I will always blow calls in the favor the league wants me too.

This is how they build a corrupt system that enables refs betting on games, the nba getting more game 7s, and other incentives behind closed doors.

 

[eaglesnut]

It is the truth.

So until they incorporate technology to take pressure off of human officials, this will always be a problem.

Just as it always has been.

All they have to do is be fair. Blown calls don't matter if it gets evened out.

This is the problem, they know they don't have to be fair because the league will protect them. They are incentived to do the league's bidding.

Everyone can just pretend they aren't being fair because they are "trying to be accurate," but 100% accuracy is impossible. Fair is what matters.

 

[eaglesnut]

I don’t really care what you want to call it.

The people who who constantly talk about how much the refs suck at their jobs and that officials don’t get consequences for mistakes are wrong.

No the refs suck at their jobs and ruin evenings all over the country just because the league doesn't want real integrity within their sport. They want control over what happens. Then they share the pie.

 

[eaglesnut]

It most certainly is better than it was during the early 2000s. The officiating is not getting worse, but the fact that basketball has only five people playing for any team at any given time causes a huge advantage to the team that is going to get the "star treatment". It's the nature of the beast.

That is what the league wanted. They wanted their stars to promote sneakers, hoagies and china. They wanted stars that were globally recognizable, they didn't want fair competitions.

It's amazing how difficult this is for some to grasp.

 

[eaglesnut]

Where am I angry? People responding to people isn't a sign of anger. There's nothing going on here but conversation

Mskings could feel the content of the conversation slipping away from where he wanted so he made an emotional attack on you to disrupt the conversation since he can't address your points. This is typical behavior in some circles.

 

[trojanfan12]

Replay doesn't automatically make things better

Not in game video replay. Not sure how you got that from my post.

Replay as in...refs mistakes are shown all over ESPN, FOX Sports, Twitter, etc.

 

[trojanfan12]

Okay? Sure. That doesn't negate that there could still be problems. That piece present itself as if there's no problem because missed calls happen, what are you gonna do.

lol

If you look hard enough for a problem...guess what you're going to find?

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that your perception is just that and may not be the reality that you want it to be.

 

[msgkings322]

Angry? lol what a chicken shit response

Yeah not clever and brave like yours

 

[msgkings322]

The guys at 538 don't write good articles, they get good attention. It's a business model not a scientific endeavor.

They really should bring you in as a consultant

 

[msgkings322]

Mskings could feel the content of the conversation slipping away from where he wanted so he made an emotional attack on you to disrupt the conversation since he can't address your points. This is typical behavior in some circles.

LOL nailed it!

 

[wildturkey]

Dude.

You are talking about my posting history on this topic.

I made a couple short comments in response to you on your specific comments.

You talked about the “stance I always take”

And then claim that I didn’t say anything about ways to improve the system in this thread.

Be better than that.

I do not recall you ever talking about definitively changing the officiating system in sport with video and technology as the only way to make it better. We've been posted here, what, 10 years now? Whenever the topic comes up of any officiating in any sport, you're not typically out here talking about the need for better technology. What you do, and why I brought it because your started going down that road in topic, is you go on about saying officiating is hard and fans could do no better so they shouldn't complain. Which is a nothing statement. It's the same useless logic as when athletes pull the "I played, you didn't" card so nothing a person says should hold any weight at all. By using that logic, you take away the accountability of officiating to better themselves because you chalk it up as "there will always be bad calls" and now you're trying to add "they can't get better without technology". The former is always true but it doesn't end the discussion or answer the question of if there's officiating problems. The latter isn't true because while technology can make things better and cut down on missed calls, so can extra work from officials. That's the entire point of the training they do. So when an officiating issue arises (perceived or not), its reasonable to wonder if they need to put in some more work to sharpen their skills back up and not just chalk it up to "oh well. bad calls happen. they did their best"

 

[msgkings322]

I do not recall you ever talking about definitively changing the officiating system in sport with video and technology as the only way to make it better. We've been posted here, what, 10 years now? Whenever the topic comes up of any officiating in any sport, you're not typically out here talking about the need for better technology. What you do, and why I brought it because your started going down that road in topic, is you go on about saying officiating is hard and fans could do no better so they shouldn't complain. Which is a nothing statement. It's the same useless logic as when athletes pull the "I played, you didn't" card so nothing a person says should hold any weight at all. By using that logic, you take away the accountability of officiating to better themselves because you chalk it up as "there will always be bad calls" and now you're trying to add "they can't get better without technology". The former is always true but it doesn't end the discussion or answer the question of if there's officiating problems. The latter isn't true because while technology can make things better and cut down on missed calls, so can extra work from officials. That's the entire point of the training they do. So when an officiating issue arises (perceived or not), its reasonable to wonder if they need to put in some more work to sharpen their skills back up and not just chalk it up to "oh well. bad calls happen. they did their best"

Holy wall of text, Batman!

Seriously it seems like you're using a lot of words to say they need to be better. You don't think they will see that when they do the reviews and improvements they already do every year? Sometimes it's a bad year.

 

[wildturkey]

Not in game video replay. Not sure how you got that from my post.

Replay as in...refs mistakes are shown all over ESPN, FOX Sports, Twitter, etc.

The way you phrased it made it seem like you were saying the refs are better now than before because they also have more technology at their disposal.

lol

If you look hard enough for a problem...guess what you're going to find?

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that your perception is just that and may not be the reality that you want it to be.

I don't and its not just my perception. There's more frequency of the discussion over the last couple of years from fans, media, players and coaches. All of the things in place to allow for that perception, technology and whatnot, existed 3, 5, even 10 years ago but there wasn't as much discussion. And I'm saying that's because there is a decline in quality now as opposed to then. Like PickleRick said, officiating is better than it was in the early 00s/late 90s. I generally think it was was pretty good throughout most of the 2010s, probably the best its ever been, especially when they loosened up the freedom of movement guidelines starting in the late 00s. Yes, there's always bad calls here or there. Yes, you can always find someone somewhere that will complain about it. I agree with tlance, mgs, you in that regard. But somewhere along the line the last season or two, that quality has dipped. They could have been at the best its been for awhile and dipped the last couple of years, but its still a dip. And that's why you see the uptick in rhetoric from players, coaches, and media members. They are reacting to what's on the court. Yeah, it could all be perception of everyone involved. But I want a more substantial take than "there's always bad calls, nothing to see here" to show otherwise or how that 538 piece intended to do, but how I pointed out their case needed more context.