THE REFS - the 538 nerds weigh in

[trojanfan12]

Did you read the article? It's not like the NBA doesn't want them to be as good as possible. They look at every game and give penalties and advances based on how good the refs do. Our point is simply that it can never be perfect and if it was worse this year they will see it on the tape and punish the worst offenders and promote the best.

It's amazing how difficult this is for some to grasp.

 

[wildturkey]

Did you read the article? It's not like the NBA doesn't want them to be as good as possible. They look at every game and give penalties and advances based on how good the refs do. Our point is simply that it can never be perfect and if it was worse this year they will see it on the tape and punish the worst offenders and promote the best.

Yes I read the article, did you read the first post I made? Your point that it can never be perfect is pointless because no one is saying it has to be perfect. Perfect is an impossibility. So your point is it can't be perfect, they're trying, stop complaining. That is not objectively looking issues with officiating.

 

[msgkings322]

Yes I read the article, did you read the first post I made? Your point that it can never be perfect is pointless because no one is saying it has to be perfect. Perfect is an impossibility. So your point is it can't be perfect, they're trying, stop complaining. That is not objectively looking issues with officiating.

No you completely misunderstand what I am saying. You are acting like the league doesn't already watch these guys very closely, rewarding the good ones and punishing the bad. Your only reason for thinking it's so much worse is recency bias, confirmation bias, and emotion. Maybe it is worse this year....they will review and make adjustments. And no matter what they do, you will bitch.

 

[wildturkey]

No…

I told you how they can improve.

They need to completely change the system.

Camera technology is too good today to not use it. You can see every angle to verify the official missed the call.

But the league can’t use the technology to get the calls right.

Human officials are always going to miss calls. It isn’t a cop out. It is common sense.

So either stop complaining when they do, or change the system.

You have absolutely nothing but your own perception that officials are worse today. And I am telling you that you are incorrect.

The burden of proof is on you, and you have absolutely none.

No you didn't. You've never talked about changing the system the way you're alluding to here. You're completely pulling this out of thin air here.

I don’t really care what you want to call it.

The people who who constantly talk about how much the refs suck at their jobs and that officials don’t get consequences for mistakes are wrong.

Of course you don't care because it blows up what you were saying.

 

[wildturkey]

You should have stopped there.

The rest of your post only serves to back up that statement.

Observational and anecdotal evidence are still forms of evidence. It's the same evidence you are using too, just trying to make the opposite side. No one outside of the NBA has quantitative data.

 

[msgkings322]

No you didn't. You've never talked about changing the system the way you're alluding to here. You're completely pulling this out of thin air here.

Of course you don't care because it blows up what you were saying.

Why are you so angry about this? Don't like disagreement?

 

[Picklerick 2.0]

No you completely misunderstand what I am saying. You are acting like the league doesn't already watch these guys very closely, rewarding the good ones and punishing the bad. Your only reason for thinking it's so much worse is recency bias, confirmation bias, and emotion. Maybe it is worse this year....they will review and make adjustments. And no matter what they do, you will bitch.

It most certainly is better than it was during the early 2000s. The officiating is not getting worse, but the fact that basketball has only five people playing for any team at any given time causes a huge advantage to the team that is going to get the "star treatment". It's the nature of the beast.

 

[wildturkey]

No you completely misunderstand what I am saying. You are acting like the league doesn't already watch these guys very closely, rewarding the good ones and punishing the bad. Your only reason for thinking it's so much worse is recency bias, confirmation bias, and emotion. Maybe it is worse this year....they will review and make adjustments. And no matter what they do, you will bitch.

Obviously they are watching them closely. I get what you are saying. But you don't get there can still be a decline even with what that article mentioned.

 

[wildturkey]

Why are you so angry about this? Don't like disagreement?

Where am I angry? People responding to people isn't a sign of anger. There's nothing going on here but conversation

 

[msgkings322]

Obviously they are watching them closely. I get what you are saying. But you don't get there can still be a decline even with what that article mentioned.

If we see it, they see it. They will adjust

 

[msgkings322]

Where am I angry? People responding to people isn't a sign of anger. There's nothing going on here but conversation

You're being really dismissive of tlance for example, he has mentioned that idea a few times

 

[wildturkey]

If we see it, they see it. They will adjust

Okay? Sure. That doesn't negate that there could still be problems. That piece present itself as if there's no problem because missed calls happen, what are you gonna do.

 

[trojanfan12]

Observational and anecdotal evidence are still forms of evidence. It's the same evidence you are using too, just trying to make the opposite side. No one outside of the NBA has quantitative data.

With no real data to back it up, it's opinion and conjecture.

 

[Picklerick 2.0]

Obviously they are watching them closely. I get what you are saying. But you don't get there can still be a decline even with what that article mentioned.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but the stance you are taking on the officiating being the worst it's ever been is destroying your stance. I can remember shaq literally swinging his elbow into Greg kites head and then calling a foul on kite. I can remember Kobe shooting his shots and then throwing a punch at anyone nearby and if the punch landed it was a defensive foul

 

[wildturkey]

You're being really dismissive of tlance for example, he has mentioned that idea a few times

Where does he mention it as his core argument? I re-read the thread to make sure before I posted. He mentioned cameras one time, but not in a way he's trying to spin it. If that is what he really meant the first time, it didn't come across that way clear enough

 

[wildturkey]

With no real data to back it up, it's opinion and conjecture.

What's real to you? Just quantitative? Because if that's it, you don't have it either so I don't get the point you're trying to make here. We're all using what's available to us to talk about it

 

[wildturkey]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but the stance you are taking on the officiating being the worst it's ever been is destroying your stance. I can remember shaq literally swinging his elbow into Greg kites head and then calling a foul on kite. I can remember Kobe shooting his shots and then throwing a punch at anyone nearby and if the punch landed it was a defensive foul

I never said it was the worst its ever been. I've said there's been a decline. I'm not just basing this on what I see. I'm factoring in more players and coaches speaking out about it. More segments about in NBA media whether its written, podcasts, shows, etc. General fan discussions on NBA reddit, Twitter, social media. That's all observational and anecdotal data I'm talking about. It's not like I'm pulling this out of thin air because there's a bad call here or there. I mean we've even had mild mannered players speak out about it and get fined about it so there's something there. It's possible its all perception that's started to feed in on itself but the NBA could put a stop to that if they were more forthcoming with data, standards, and processes. Like how I mentioned the 92% to 95% part in the 538 piece. That number needs more context.

 

[trojanfan12]

Okay? Sure. That doesn't negate that there could still be problems. That piece present itself as if there's no problem because missed calls happen, what are you gonna do.

Ultimately, there is no problem for that reason. Missed calls are going to happen and at some level, that has to be okay. The league has protocols to reward and punish refs for their performance. They are doing their best to make sure the games are called as fairly as humanly possible.

I don't believe the problem is that refs have gotten worse, I believe they are as good as they have ever been and may be better than they've ever been.

The problem is that every second of every game is televised and with social media and 24/7 news cycles, every missed call in every game can now be replayed and rehashed ad nauseum.

There is so much scrutiny now that we've even had a poster on this board go as far as to say that they could do a better job than the current refs...which is about as stupid as it gets.

Those of you who have been bitching and crying the most and claiming that there's no accountability have been shown that there is accountability and you're still bitching, crying and wanting to argue about "strawmen" because the article used an absurdity to point out an absurdity.

 

[trojanfan12]

What's real to you? Just quantitative? Because if that's it, you don't have it either so I don't get the point you're trying to make here. We're all using what's available to us to talk about it

What's not real is opinion that isn't backed by facts.

And you're not using all of what's available to you because you are arguing without context. You're claiming the refs are worse without taking into account the fact that we have orders of magnitude more replays and discussion of games than we've ever had in history.

 

[Picklerick 2.0]

I never said it was the worst its ever been. I've said there's been a decline. I'm not just basing this on what I see. I'm factoring in more players and coaches speaking out about it. More segments about in NBA media whether its written, podcasts, shows, etc. General fan discussions on NBA reddit, Twitter, social media. That's all observational and anecdotal data I'm talking about. It's not like I'm pulling this out of thin air because there's a bad call here or there. I mean we've even had mild mannered players speak out about it and get fined about it so there's something there. It's possible its all perception that's started to feed in on itself but the NBA could put a stop to that if they were more forthcoming with data, standards, and processes. Like how I mentioned the 92% to 95% part in the 538 piece. That number needs more context.

On a decline since when tho? Give me a starting time for me to quantity with regards to the present.