The draft, need and talent line up finally!

[Cleaves2000]

And for saying that these lion fans on here are always negative.....i call bullshit!

I see the same people dissing the punter pick, peterman, ravioli, levy, durant, and other bums on here giving praise to lions who deserve it.....staff when he deserves it, CJ, suh, fairley, tulloch, delmas, when he plays, ansah pick, slay pick, warford pick, bush signing, hanson, gunther, houston.

These players get paid millions to play football. They get criticized when they dont deliver. This isnt pee wee football where you dont wanna hurt kids feelings. This is a billion dollar business. This is a what have you done for me lately league. That goes with the job. Just the way it is. If there skin is that thin, they needa find a new career.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Kreton.....i know its been awhile. Thats me in the pic with the blue lions shirt i won on your draft game. And yup thats my wifey.

 

[themuzzer]

View attachment 5621



Kreton.....i know its been awhile. Thats me in the pic with the blue lions shirt i won on your draft game. And yup thats my wifey.

Wifey the one in the white shirt? I thought you liked girls with alittle less facial hair........

 

[themuzzer]

Totally agree on this one. Leshoure needs to find another gear in the open field, but due to our o-line's inability to run block, I don't think he saw the open field more than a couple times last season...

Funny Thing, I like Lehsoure, I think he will be or could be a very solid running back. The Lions O-line doesn't provide that for him with his style. There's nothing wrong with the Talent Mikel possess. We just don't get a push or even a punch from our O-line that is needed for his between the tackles style of running.

Bush will be way more successful behind our line because he won't be asked to run left or right of Raiola.

This is a positive post for Leshoure....Negative towards Raiola and Peterman. Warrford still needs to prove himself and if he does Leshoures YPC should go up.

We can agree on this because we just did, but last year when Lehsoure was being arrested, I was a staunch poster saying that he's trouble and locker rooms don't need that, especially the Lions locker room.

That's not anti Lion, that is pro Lion...His talent had nothing to do with it, it had to do with what he was doing off the field.

 

[Quackerjacked]

How bout that Chris Hope signing. In my opinion it's a continued improvement to our secondary. I don't think Speivey makes it through camp unless Delmas is PUP.

 

[tpaulus_2]

I wasn't going to respond, but you're laying on the bullshit pretty thick, as usual.

I think it says a lot that you haven't posted in quite a while now, but pop right up when your negative cronies are being called out. You guys sure do stick together, I'll give you that. Perhaps that's by design when you guy meet for your weekly "Lions fans who hate everything about the Lions" club?

Alot of people back home including the newspapers were scratching their heads about the punter.

And a lot of people who'd been paying attention, including the newspapers, weren't scratching their heads. So there's that for starters.

Why is it if a fan says anything negative, its trolling? I mean, the lions were 4-12 last year.....have had how many winning years in the last 30 years? It isnt like we have a team full of stars.

A.) It's not when somebody says "anything negative." I've covered that plenty of times, as have others, but none of you seem to want to acknowledge posts that disprove whatever point you're trying to make. You all seem to conveniently skip right over those. When faced with a firm question, or anything that disproves your generalizations, you just ignore that post all together.

B.) It's exactly that attitude, that we've been losers for years so therefore you're all absolutely right to complain about everything, that gets to the rest of us. If that's the way you see it, then why post on a sight for actual fans, people who actually believe our team is capable of winning and aren't caught up on how much we've historically sucked?

We may not have a team full of stars, but we certainly don't have a team full of bums like you guys are so fond of making it seem.

So just because these scouts are here now scouting and drafting doesnt mean they know what they are doing....so the scout who said "ryan leaf should be our pick at number 2" knew what he was talking about?

You could have been more concise and simply said "I have no idea how scouting departments work at all." That would have been a bit shorter and still delivered the same point that sentence above makes.

I remember telling friends during the draft that drafting terry fair instead of randy moss will come back n bite us. But i guess whatever lion scout that thought fair was a better option than moss knew something i didnt.

Oh shit! You got one pick right 15 years ago that our personnel department missed on! You should definitely be running the show, what on earth it WCF thinking not naming you the GM for that brilliant bit of foresight?!

And, just like the one above, you're showing a total lack of understanding of how a personnel department operates if you think one scout makes the decision on who we draft.

Check any team in any sport and nobody has fans who love every move the team makes. That doesnt make them trolls.

No, what makes someone a troll is purposely trash-talking one or more of our players in hopes of getting a response out of the peanut gallery. "Lesuck" is a perfect example on this thread.

Then TP makes it seem like hes the only one who knows anything......just him and the lions people.

How so? I think this is just another vague generalization that you dissenters make that you know can't be readily disproved. More weak debate tactics being tossed around on your sinking ship, nothing more.

I'm sorry it bothers you when I call out your fellow dissenters when they're posting things that are simply untrue or inaccurate. If you don't want to hold people accountable for posting accurate info when they're trashing our team and/or players that's your decision. I, however, feel the need to point out when they're wrong on something if they're going to take the time to go out of their way to talk shit about our team.

All 52 lions on the roster will be great in his eyes.

So I'm arguing with a guy who doesn't even know how many guys are on an NFL roster? Awesome. Too bad you're not half as interested in the Lions as you are in jumping into arguments out of the blue- you've proven over the years to be pretty great at the latter.

Im waiting to see fox. I think he will never be a decent tackle. And for thinking that im a troll. Watta joke! But when he fails as i think he will, imma see how TP spins that one...

I just went ahead and bolded the problem with that statement. I think it provides great insight into your thought process, and why it's fruitless to bother debating with you. You're never going to learn anything with that kind of attitude, but clearly that's never bothered you in the past.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, though, and predict that if Fox wins the starting RT job, but doesn't make the Pro Bowl we'll be hearing from you what a crappy year he had and why he only started because we had nobody else, and so on and so on...

levy is a below avg LB.

In your opinion. Then again you don't even follow the league closely enough to know how many guys are on a roster, so how much is that opinion really worth?

peterman is below avg.

That's the New York Jet's problem, not ours.

Speaking of problems, that's the problem with arguing with a guy like you who only comes around once every few months- you don't even pay enough attention to know who is on our team or not.

Perhaps the real problem lies with me for attempting to engage you in meaningful debate? I wonder if that's why everyone else more-or-less just ignores your posts?

TP thinks mike thomas will get around 5 carries a game and around 300 yds rushing and around 50 receptions and how many TD's.

Lol, this is actually the part that convinced me to respond- I wanted to point out what a dumbass you are since the information proving you wrong on this one is readily available on this very site on two separate threads about Mike Thomas.

It perfectly frames what you dissenters so love to do- read something once, half-ass remember it, then embellish the hell out of it when it serves your purpose. The fact that you posted specific numbers, which happened to be way off, when the real ones I gave are readily available, makes you look simply stupid. I suppose, though, when you don't know what the fuck you're talking about and you're trying to debate with someone who does that you've gotta try something, hey?

Desperation is a stinky cologne Cleaves, and in this case it just blew up in your face.

He thinks every lion will put up video game numbers.

Give me one example, smart ass.

It's easy to post this kind of bullshit to make yourself look like you're keeping pace in this argument, but I'm getting tired of the vague generalizations you keep using.

Give an example or stop fabricating lies in your defense. Remember, you chose to jump into this one- this debate had nothing to do with you until you decided to jump in and attack me. I realize you don't like me going back to our CBS days because I wouldn't put up with your crap there either, but I find your repeated lying statements to be tiresome.

Sorry if you dont care for some of us lion fans that have seen the same old lions over and over do the same thing.

You're 100% right, I don't care for that attitude because the 1984, 1985, 1992, 1997, 2000, 2006 or 2010 Lions have absolutely nothing to do with the 2013 Lions.

If you're of the attitude that they've always sucked, so they'll continue to suck, that's too bad, but it's your problem, not mine. So don't act all surprised when I continue to call our you "realists" when you try to bring the rest of us down with your sorry-ass soup.

You say how great everyone is.

I do? Here's another one where I'd like an example. Please show me a single post where I've said how great everyone is.

There must be lots according to your tired rhetoric, so produce an example.

I'm willing to bet that's not gonna happen because you're not very good at backing up your lies...

So 13-3 this year?

9-7, as already posted on the season prediction thread.

That being posted for the baord to read, what do you guys suppose the odds are that he comes back at the end of the season and says "Remember when tpaul said we'd go 13-3!? LMFAO!" That seems to be your m.o.- assigning to me what I said and what I think based on your apparently limited reading comprehension and retention skills.




I'd like to finish with a question, although I'm sure it will go unanswered like all of the questions I direct at you guys:

Why is it that it's always so ok for you guys to share your negative opinions on everything Lions realated, yet when we call you out on it, thereby expressing our opinions, it's suddenly not ok?

 

[Microwahevo]

Alot of people back home including the newspapers were scratching their heads
about the punter.

Can you quantify that with a number? I don't think that word means what you actually think it means. If by "a lot" you mean some of your friends, then sure, it may.

so the scout who said "ryan leaf should be our pick at number 2" knew what he
was talking about?

Ahhhh, I love when people like you bring the 'ol Ryan Leaf debate into the mix. Scouts, coaches, GMs, etc all miss on picks, all the way from round 1 to round 7. It happens. Ryan Leaf was thought of by many people to be a top rated pick not just some random scout from San Diego you've pegged as the guy who was wrong.

Just as you got a pick right about Terry Fair years ago hardly makes you any more qualified to make picks than the guy(btw it was an entire staff) that got Ryan Leaf wrong. Like I said, people make wrong picks all the time. True, in the past the Lions have missed on a lot of them. But that doesn't mean things can't change. And TP provided us all some nice info on the average draft pick of punters in the league. And our pick was right in line with that. Hardly a "Millen" pick as your boy rollingblunder thinks.

Then TP makes it seem like hes the only one who knows anything

I will admit, that TP loves to point out the positives in players. Nothing wrong with that. It would be one thing if he made it all sound like they are gonna be superstars. But it simply isn't so. A handful of you just read it that way b/c he doesn't share your negative vibe towards anything Lions related.

All 52 lions on the roster will be great in his eyes

LMAO!! I hope, for your sake, that you simply missed the #3 key and hit the #2. B/c if not, I'm not sure you'd be able to quantify anything to me. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. See? Positivity works bro.

Sorry if you dont care for some of us lion fans that have seen the same old
lions over and over do the same thing

And it's your prerogative to bitch and moan about anything Lions related. Your right to do so. But that doesn't make it right simply b/c you say so. Just like my opinions don't make anything correct, except when I actually do research and put numbers to my responses. Like, for example, if someone were to say that there are 52 players on an NFL roster, well, they'd be incorrect. And we'd have actual facts to back it up. But when someone also says that "a lot of people", well that's not true unless you can put a solid, factual number to that opinion.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Again, though, I'm sorry for stirring up a bunch of shit on here.

I didn't like thndr's "tone" if you will (it was the Lesuck comment that really got me going) but I'm still glad he's found his way over here. I just gotta get used to his style again, we had actually settled in pretty well on the CBS board...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Wow -- this thread got out of hand quickly.

I guess I don't understand the questioning of whether someone is a 'fan', if they bring up the negatives with the team. Those are the areas of the team which they want to see some sort of improvement. That is why it is brought up and talked about. It isn't to rile up other fans.

Do we really need to talk about Stafford, Calvin Johnson, Suh, Fairley and all the other positives on the team? We don't have to fix those areas of the team. When a team is 4-12 the previous season -- they have a lot of issues to correct, especially when that team loses so many guys in FA too.

I don't see what the big deal is if someone thinks LeShoure sucks -- he was basically a short yardage back last year and we not only spent a 2nd rounder on him, we traded up to get him. That is frustrating. His 9 tds were impressive, but the vast majority were from the 1 yard line. I think Bell looked more impressive than LeShoure last year. Does that make me a bad fan?

I hated taking a punter in the 5th round. I could see if he was the consensus best punter in the draft, but he wasn't. the difference between martin and 3 or 4 other punters who weren't even drafted is minimal at best and most had better numbers than Martin last year. IMO -- Detroit would have better served spending their picks adding depth at positions like Safety or OLB or DL and drafting a punter in the 7th round. Does it make me a bad fan for questioning the front office on their draft pick? I don't think so.

 

[tpaulus_2]

And sorry @ cleaves for any name-calling. You jumped in late when I was already all riled up, so you caught my full wrath. I stand by a lot of what I said, but other parts were just venomous because I was pissed off. I'm sure you meant 53 guys, so there's that for starters...

 

[tpaulus_2]

Wow -- this thread got out of hand quickly.

I guess I don't understand the questioning of whether someone is a 'fan', if they bring up the negatives with the team. Those are the areas of the team which they want to see some sort of improvement. That is why it is brought up and talked about. It isn't to rile up other fans.

For me it's not the negatives being brought up, so much as how they're brought up. Like I said, I didn't care for his tone, but then again that's just kind of how he is, I don't think he means to be as confrontational as he comes across.

I have no problem with anyone bringing up negative aspects of our team, it's more the baseless dismissive statements that rile me up. This one definitely got out of hand, but I think we're all just bored because we're in a dead time of the NFL calender....

 

[tpaulus_2]

Do we really need to talk about Stafford, Calvin Johnson, Suh, Fairley and all the other positives on the team? We don't have to fix those areas of the team. When a team is 4-12 the previous season -- they have a lot of issues to correct, especially when that team loses so many guys in FA too.

That's maybe where we split- you seem to be suggesting we should only talk about areas that need to be fixed, yet we're powerless to actually fix those areas, so to me it becomes something akin to bitching at some point.

I see no problem also talking about the positives, the maybes, potential trades, who might be a sleeper, etc... nothing Lions-related should be off limits on a message board.

I don't see what the big deal is if someone thinks LeShoure sucks --

The big deal is that he doesn't suck- he had a productive rookie season after a gruesome injury that would have been a career-ender 15 or 20 years ago. Give the dude some time before just writing him off, especially since he was still pretty productive last year.

he was basically a short yardage back last year and we not only spent a 2nd rounder on him, we traded up to get him. That is frustrating.

You're acting like that was his ceiling, and totally ignoring that it was his first season back from a major injury, not to mention his rookie season to boot.

Pre-injury he was thought of as a very explosive big back, so the draft position was completely warranted. You can't blame the draft position when a major injury has derailed his career so far.

the difference between martin and 3 or 4 other punters who weren't even drafted is minimal at best

That's strictly your opinion though. Those with far more access to these players didn't share that opinion at all. You're only looking at their stats and accolades, rather than their projected abilities and all of the other factors that come into play.

Also, you keep bringing up Ryan Allen, and how he was a two time all american and his great numbers, but you're also the first guy to put up a list of failed all americans and failed college players who led the NCAA in any category if I'm trying to use those accolades to prop up a player (Ryan Broyles comes to mind). So that's a two way street, if Ryan Allen was that good he'd be competing for a roster spot, not just learning with the Patriots who have a firmly entrenched punter (who was drafted in the 5th round, for what it's worth)...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

That's strictly your opinion though. Those with far more access to these players didn't share that opinion at all. You're only looking at their stats and accolades, rather than their projected abilities and all of the other factors that come into play.

Also, you keep bringing up Ryan Allen, and how he was a two time all american and his great numbers, but you're also the first guy to put up a list of failed all americans and failed college players who led the NCAA in any category if I'm trying to use those accolades to prop up a player (Ryan Broyles comes to mind). So that's a two way street, if Ryan Allen was that good he'd be competing for a roster spot, not just learning with the Patriots who have a firmly entrenched punter (who was drafted in the 5th round, for what it's worth)...

Anything written on this site is opinion, unless you are stating an absolute fact. You don't know if the Lions scouting dept had Martin rated as far as away the best punter. They could have had 3 or 4 guys they felt strongly about and finally decided on Martin, for whatever reason. That is the thing -- we don't know. It isn't as if pre-draft, everyone was talking about Martin being one of the 1st punters off the board -- Martin, himself, even admitted he was surprised to be drafted, let alone taken in the 5th round.

Many fans didn't like the pick. Not that they spent a draft pick on a punter, but that they traded down in the 5th round and then drafted a punter in the 5th, when it was one of the deepest drafts in a long time and quality players were still on the board. Any Lions fan knows full well -- Punter was one of the weakest links on the team last year, so upgrading was a must. I like that they are trying to fix the problems in the punting dept, but I just disagree with spending a pick that high. As I said -- his career best yards per punt average last year, would have placed him around 20th in the NFL. Is that worth a 5th round pick? To me, no.

And comparing position players making the transition from college to the NFL to Punters and Kickers doing the same is pointless. In the NFL, the punters and kickers are going to be doing the exact same thing they were doing in college -- kicking a football, it is just on a bigger stage. Players like WRs are now going up against the best CBs in the world -- so piling yardage up in college is nice, but it means nothing if you can't do it against the best.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

The big deal is that he doesn't suck- he had a productive rookie season after a gruesome injury that would have been a career-ender 15 or 20 years ago. Give the dude some time before just writing him off, especially since he was still pretty productive last year.

That is your opinion. His opinion is LeShoure disappointed last year. I know outside the 1st game against Tennessee -- I saw next to nothing from him to be excited about. He lacked burst and speed, which was evident by the fact he season long rush was like 16 yards, I believe and the fact teams were putting the minimum in the box to stop the run makes it look even worse.

The positive -- He scored 9 tds, but as I said earlier, the majority of those TDs were 1 yard plunges. That is great that we have him for that, but I expect more out of a 2nd round pick. This year will tell us a lot about LeShoure. Hopefully he gets some explosiveness back or at least shows some kind of burst. Detroit needs to establish a running game to move those safeties closer to the line of scrimmage. If Detroit can't run the ball effectively -- we are going to see a lot of the same stuff we saw last year, with safeties hanging out 20 yards deep.

 

[tpaulus_2]

You don't know if the Lions scouting dept had Martin rated as far as away the best punter. They could have had 3 or 4 guys they felt strongly about and finally decided on Martin, for whatever reason.

Or just maybe "The Lions considered UCLA's Jeff Locke (drafted by Minnesota 155 overall) and Martin as the best two punters in the draft and had similar grades on both." At least according to the Lions website, that is...

 

[tpaulus_2]

That is the thing -- we don't know.

Now, see... as I understand it they had him and that kid that Minnesota drafted just ahead of us rated pretty much the same. So as soon as one went, the we drafted the other with our next pick. That's what I think went down...

 

[tpaulus_2]

Consequently, Minnesota is going to be set up to have some very good specialists for a long time. They hit big-time last year on Blair Walsh, if Locke works out for them they'll be in great shape. Both guys get the advantage of playing all their home games, and at least one road divisional game (Detroit) in a dome, which is huge for kickers.

The Lions fan in me hopes that Locke sucks and that Walsh was a one year wonder!

 

[Thruthefog]

Perhaps the real problem lies with me for attempting to engage you in meaningful debate? I wonder if that's why everyone else more-or-less just ignores your posts?

 

[tpaulus_2]

let alone taken in the 5th round.

Exactly! The 5th round... pick 165... the average draft position for the 20 drafted punters drafted in the last ten years! What were they thinking taking a punter at that spot!?!

And to top it off do you guys know what became of those 20 punters drafted since 2003? They went on to become 9 of the NFL's top 10 punters last year! What kind of idiot drafts a punter in hopes to have better special teams units that set league records for being embarrassingly bad last season, especially knowing full well that drafted punters turn out to be the best in the game more often than they don't?

Madness I tell you!

 

[tpaulus_2]

How's that? More in line with your point of view? :rollseyes: