The case for Verlander... AL Cy Young

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I don't think standings factor in. Not sure why they would.

It's essentially tMost Outstanding Pitcher Award.

I know I'm the one that used the word "standings," but I don't think it's the right word. I don't think the voters consider one pitcher's team's record against another's. I do think it's possible that leading a team to a division title could be considered.

 

[TKOSpikes]

I never understood why some of you sabre heads totally ignore team stats... I will agree that they are less important, but I do think they are important, even if for different reasons than they were initially intended for...

I think run support should be looked at more than wins. How many times did Porcello come out to pitch in the 6th with a comfortable lead? How many times did JV go out in the 7th down 1-0 or tied?

It's not even close. Kluber is good, and maybe his playoff run influences the voters... but JV was far and away the best pitcher in the AL and probably top three overall.... outside of four games.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I think run support should be looked at more than wins. How many times did Porcello come out to pitch in the 6th with a comfortable lead? How many times did JV go out in the 7th down 1-0 or tied?

It's not even close. Kluber is good, and maybe his playoff run influences the voters... but JV was far and away the best pitcher in the AL and probably top three overall.... outside of four games.

Postseason doesn't factor into CY voting. I believe the votes are cast right after the season ends.

 

[TKOSpikes]

Postseason doesn't factor into CY voting. I believe the votes are cast right after the season ends.

Yes.... technically.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Yes.... technically.

Are you suggesting that you don't believe CY Voters turn their ballots in before the postseason starts?

 

[TKOSpikes]

Are you suggesting that you don't believe CY Voters turn their ballots in before the postseason starts?

The implication being I have no idea. But I bet Porcello voters are regretting their decision.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I found this.

When does the voting take place?

Voters submit their ballots before the start of the postseason.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think run support should be looked at more than wins. How many times did Porcello come out to pitch in the 6th with a comfortable lead? How many times did JV go out in the 7th down 1-0 or tied?

It's not even close. Kluber is good, and maybe his playoff run influences the voters... but JV was far and away the best pitcher in the AL and probably top three overall.... outside of four games.

EH... I disagree... I do think there is something to pitching well enough to win... Isnt a loss by definition, a pitcher was not GOOD enough to win??

 

[broncosmitty]

I know I'm the one that used the word "standings," but I don't think it's the right word. I don't think the voters consider one pitcher's team's record against another's. I do think it's possible that leading a team to a division title could be considered.

Id really hope standings wouldn't factor. Ws, even though run support is out of their hands, are the point of a pitchers start. Shouldn't be the end all be all, but I appreciate the value of a W. Especially if the Ws are a high percentage of a teams Ws.

Kluber won in 2014, despite less innings, a higher WHIP and ERA and third place finishing team. But he had more Ws than Felix. That had to be a big factor.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The NL CY will be very interesting... I kind of think they might just give it to Jose Fernandez...

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Id really hope standings wouldn't factor.

I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, however. . .

I think I've posted the formula that Rob Neyer and Bill James came up with to predict CY winners. It accurately predicts the CY winners about 80% of the time. The formula includes a factor for the pitcher's team winning their division, so those to found a statistical link.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I kind of think they might just give it to Jose Fernandez...

You can't be serious.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, however. . .

I think I've posted the formula that Rob Neyer and Bill James came up with to predict CY winners. It accurately predicts the CY winners about 80% of the time. The formula includes a factor for the pitcher's team winning their division, so those to found a statistical link.

I don't mind it being factored in... as I think the more stats you put in(that measure different things) the more accurate you get... There is something to playing for a better team, opponents do play with a different mental state...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

You can't be serious.

I think I am... He is pretty close already... 16 wins, sub 3.00 ERA, 180+ innings... Of course I think there are more deserving players, but sometimes story beats stats...

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I think I am... He is pretty close already... 16 wins, sub 3.00 ERA, 180+ innings... Of course I think there are more deserving players, but sometimes story beats stats...

Sometimes I think you're addicted to ether.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Sometimes I think you're addicted to ether.

believe me, I wish I was...

 

[TKOSpikes]

EH... I disagree... I do think there is something to pitching well enough to win... Isnt a loss by definition, a pitcher was not GOOD enough to win??

????

Did you read my OP?

Take his 18 Losses/ND... can we take half of the 1-0/0-0 games and give him a win? There's 20 wins.

I think it's simple. Whichever pitcher pitched the best, the most, should win. You say "pitched well enough to win"...well, out of those 18 games, he did so 14 times.

27 quality starts in 34 starts! Only ONE being the actual 6 inning, 3 run barrier. That is pitching well enough to win. One or two runs from his team, and he is 31-4. Obviously that will never happen.... but when you say well enough to win, I can give possible wins.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Also, why the fuck does Jose Fernandez get eulogized for dying in a drunk driving accident? It's bullshit.

What if he drove his boat into another boat with a family and killed the kids? Would everyone be all "oh, he was such a great guy." What if he was in a car instead of a boat?

His drunken driving killed him and the two friends that trusted him to drive the boat.

 

[TKOSpikes]

EH... I disagree... I do think there is something to pitching well enough to win... Isnt a loss by definition, a pitcher was not GOOD enough to win??

And it CAN mean that... but when you go 8 innings with one or no runs allowed and lose on multiple occasions....that's on the hitters.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

????

Did you read my OP?

Take his 18 Losses/ND... can we take half of the 1-0/0-0 games and give him a win? There's 20 wins.

I think it's simple. Whichever pitcher pitched the best, the most, should win. You say "pitched well enough to win"...well, out of those 18 games, he did so 14 times.

27 quality starts in 34 starts! Only ONE being the actual 6 inning, 3 run barrier. That is pitching well enough to win. One or two runs from his team, and he is 31-4. Obviously that will never happen.... but when you say well enough to win, I can give possible wins.

that wasn't my argument... I am a huge QS and QS% fan, as I think it is a top 5 of the most important stat for a SP...

But my argument was more about playing with the lead it is irrelevant how many runs your team scored... For example, if the pitcher let up 4 runs it cant be a QS, but if you got the win, doesn't that mean that you still pitched well enough to get the win?? Maybe this measures pressure, idk, but I like to factor it in somehow...

Now of course, it is a low factor... But I think it is a bigger factor than run support, since we have other stats that measure how well a pitcher pitched... and we have QS and QS% to see game to game consistency...

If you take QS,QS%, ERA, WHIP, etc... then what exactly does run support tell you??