So I guess we are drafting Brandon Scherff

[redskinsfan]

Again I will simply state that most of these guys thought RG3 was cant miss, Lavar Arrington would redefine the position. Most of these guys thought Dallas had made a mistake taking Fredericks AND Martin where they did. Most of the times the sexy pick is just that, a sexy pick. There is a reason why none of them can even agree on WHICH pass rusher is the best behind WIlliams... because as much as all have thier good traits, none of them is even close to being a complete player. Just because all the talking heads say these guys will be great does not automatically make it so, or the right pick in this instance.

And why did they miss on RGIII? Because they're evaluating a player based on talent and fit in the NFL. Those scouts can't guarantee against things like injury (Kijana Carter), drug problems (Charles Rodgers), and head cases (RGIII). While the scouts are human and can miss on prospects, what you keep screwing up on is the fact that the profiles done by the scouts are usually based on talent projections. To be sure, some will include other intangibles as well. But because no one can accurately predict non-talent issues, the scouting profile can only be taken for what they purport assess.

As for the Cowboys, they did blow it on Fredericks. They took him way too early. While they still did well with him, you always seem to ignore the lost opportunity cost in drafting the 'unsexy' pick too soon. Even if they did get the right guy, they could've waited another round or two to get him and still have taken someone in the first round deserving of that pick. This point has been made time and again and continues to elude you. It's like talking to some Soviet Kommissar hell-bent on framing you irrespective of the fact that you're not guilty of anything.

But go ahead again . . . point out that the Cowboys picked a Pro-Bowler like Fredericks in the first round. That only serves to strengthen my side of the debate --> i.e., that the Cowboys sacrificed a bunch of value for worth.

 

[Sharkinva]

And you go ahead and stay focused on what we MIGHT get for trading the pick. I wont point out the fact that Im sure the Cowboys are more than thrilled with what they sacrificed over the past two years. I mean it only helped them win the Division after all. No biggie.

 

[redskinsfan]

And you go ahead and stay focused on what we MIGHT get for trading the pick. I wont point out the fact that Im sure the Cowboys are more than thrilled with what they sacrificed over the past two years. I mean it only helped them win the Division after all. No biggie.

Then you're a guy who'd happy saying that you made some money in the past few months by picking stocks using a dartboard. That might work for a while, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a bad model to use in general. The Cowboys got lucky with those picks. Let's see how they do if they continue using the same model. This is kind of like Vinny saying that signing FA vets works by pointing out to the few successes he had (e.g., Shawn Springs, Marcus Washington).

 

[Sharkinva]

Then you're a guy who'd happy saying that you made some money in the past few months by picking stocks using a dartboard. That might work for a while, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a bad model to use in general. The Cowboys got lucky with those picks. Let's see how they do if they continue using the same model. This is kind of like Vinny saying that signing FA vets works by pointing out to the few successes he had (e.g., Shawn Springs, Marcus Washington).

NOpe Im a guy who would much rather buy one wrench at the Snap on truck, pay a little more and know its going to work, than keep going to walmart and buying the same tool over and over and wondering why Im at Walmart every other week.

As for the Cowboys, they dont need to use the same model since for all intents they have one of the best O-lines in the league and the majority of that line will be in tact barring injury for the next five years.

So now they can afford to make the sexiest pick out there OR trade down if they so desire.

 

[redskinsfan]

NOpe Im a guy who would much rather buy one wrench at the Snap on truck, pay a little more and know its going to work, than keep going to walmart and buying the same tool over and over and wondering why Im at Walmart every other week.

As for the Cowboys, they dont need to use the same model since for all intents they have one of the best O-lines in the league and the majority of that line will be in tact barring injury for the next five years.

So now they can afford to make the sexiest pick out there OR trade down if they so desire.

Bad analogy. By doing that, you'd be buying a Civic at a Ferrari price. And no other GM is going to tell you that that's the way you draft. The Cowboys traded down in 2004 to take Julius Jones and, in the process, gave up on Steven Jackson. Can you imagine what kind of beast he would've been in the NFC East had the Cowboys drafted him? This is a(n reverse) example of how the Cowboys screwed up value and worth. But however it manifests itself, crediting them for doing so is real folly.

 

[Sharkinva]

Bad analogy. By doing that, you'd be buying a Civic at a Ferrari price. And no other GM is going to tell you that that's the way you draft. The Cowboys traded down in 2004 to take Julius Jones and, in the process, gave up on Steven Jackson. Can you imagine what kind of beast he would've been in the NFC East had the Cowboys drafted him? This is a(n reverse) example of how the Cowboys screwed up value and worth. But however it manifests itself, crediting them for doing so is real folly.

NO actually by doing that I would buy an Ram 2500 at a price I know I am ok with and let you worry about the Farrari that wouldnt do what I really needed, or sweat the fact that I could have gotten an F-150 and a Civic and tell myself I made the better choice when neither does what I want quite as well as what I should have gotten to begin with.

And as you just pointed out, the Cowboys traded down and away from the best player at the position which they needed, took the #2 guy, and what exactly did they get in return??

 

[redskinsfan]

NO actually by doing that I would buy an Ram 2500 at a price I know I am ok with and let you worry about the Farrari that wouldnt do what I really needed, or sweat the fact that I could have gotten an F-150 and a Civic and tell myself I made the better choice when neither does what I want quite as well as what I should have gotten to begin with.

And as you just pointed out, the Cowboys traded down and away from the best player at the position which they needed, took the #2 guy, and what exactly did they get in return??

Read my post about lost opportunity cost. You are really missing the boat here. As for the Cowboys, they too missed the boat by trading down when they should've stood pat. This represents the converse of the issue we're debating. As they are situations where, as here, we need to trade down because the value doesn't match up with our draft pick, there are others where there's a perfect marriage between the pick and the value you're getting. That's exactly what happened when the Cowboys were on the clock with the 27th pick and passed on Steven Jackson.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I'm sure the Cots regret taking the sexy pick with the first pick in the draft instead of addressing their OL, which 3 years later continues to be a weak spot.

But I do need to offer bonus love for the Snap On tool reference.

 

[Sharkinva]

I'm sure the Cots regret taking the sexy pick with the first pick in the draft instead of addressing their OL, which 3 years later continues to be a weak spot.

But I do need to offer bonus love for the Snap On tool reference.

Sorry dude, but the Colts took the best player in that draft hands down. They got this generations Peyton Manning... we got the Leaf.

 

[redskinsfan]

Sorry dude, but the Colts took the best player in that draft hands down. They got this generations Peyton Manning... we got the Leaf.

Leaf never won a division, much less in his rookie year.

 

[Sharkinva]

Leaf never won a division, much less in his rookie year.

So we got a slightly better version of Leaf for an over inflated price. Bottom line is still we dont even have the third best QB out of that particular draft considering what he cost us.

 

[redskinsfan]

So we got a slightly better version of Leaf for an over inflated price. Bottom line is still we dont even have the third best QB out of that particular draft considering what he cost us.

If he did pull off a Leaf-like performance the past three years, I'd agree with you. The price also burns me but that's water under the bridge. To me, his second year was a wash since he was still coming back from injury and forced Shanny to play him as a pocket passer when he clearly wasn't ready. (And that was RGIII's fault for having an ego to push that change far too fast for his development.) This was compounded by the fact that he never took any snaps until the first game of the season.

His third year was a wash too because of injury. Sitting rather than playing stunted his development in Gruden's new gameplan and both tried to immediately convert him into a pocket passer when it was clear he needed to slowly develop into one.

To be sure, RGIII has his shortcomings in terms of the pocket passer he wants to be. But if Gruden slowly brings him along, RGIII stays healthy and learns to tamp down his ego, and we get a half-decent o-line, he'll be fine. For the time being, he should be used more as a game manager when developing into a pocket passer in much the same way that Russell Wilson is used by the Seahawks. The Seahawks somehow were 27th in passing but have enjoyed great success in relying on a running game and a great defense. While we don't have the latter, we can slowly phase Robert into becoming the passer he should eventually become.

 

[Sharkinva]

If he did pull off a Leaf-like performance the past three years, I'd agree with you. The price also burns me but that's water under the bridge. To me, his second year was a wash since he was still coming back from injury and forced Shanny to play him as a pocket passer when he clearly wasn't ready. (And that was RGIII's fault for having an ego to push that change far too fast for his development.) This was compounded by the fact that he never took any snaps until the first game of the season.

His third year was a wash too because of injury. Sitting rather than playing stunted his development in Gruden's new gameplan and both tried to immediately convert him into a pocket passer when it was clear he needed to slowly develop into one.

To be sure, RGIII has his shortcomings in terms of the pocket passer he wants to be. But if Gruden slowly brings him along, RGIII stays healthy and learns to tamp down his ego, and we get a half-decent o-line, he'll be fine. For the time being, he should be used more as a game manager when developing into a pocket passer in much the same way that Russell Wilson is used by the Seahawks. The Seahawks somehow were 27th in passing but have enjoyed great success in relying on a running game and a great defense. While we don't have the latter, we can slowly phase Robert into becoming the passer he should eventually become.

So many cheap shots I could take off of this. But I will simply point out. From year to year he has regressed. If we turn him into a game manager and we have a mediocre season, he still gets the boot. So honestly unless we some how manage to win another division with him at the helm, we are already on the Cardale countdown.

 

[redskinsfan]

So many cheap shots I could take off of this. But I will simply point out. From year to year he has regressed. If we turn him into a game manager and we have a mediocre season, he still gets the boot. So honestly unless we some how manage to win another division with him at the helm, we are already on the Cardale countdown.

Take your cheap shots. That's the truth. He's regressed because he's pushed himself to become somewhat he's not. And Gruden has gladly pushed him down that path. Couple that with his injuries and you've got some explanation for his regression.

 

[Sharkinva]

Take your cheap shots. That's the truth. He's regressed because he's pushed himself to become somewhat he's not. And Gruden has gladly pushed him down that path. Couple that with his injuries and you've got some explanation for his regression.

Nope, no excuses will be tendered. He regressed period. Time for the team to move on. Almost hoping Mariota is there and we just take him.

 

[redskinsfan]

Nope, no excuses will be tendered. He regressed period. Time for the team to move on. Almost hoping Mariota is there and we just take him.

There are no excuses. But you've got to spot reality and work from that, good, bad, or otherwise.

 

[Sharkinva]

There are no excuses. But you've got to spot reality and work from that, good, bad, or otherwise.

Again there are places I could go with this, but we would simply disagree. LOL

 

[redskinsfan]

Again there are places I could go with this, but we would simply disagree. LOL

An excuse would be his ego, which has contributed to most if not all of his shortcomings. If he had slowed things down and played ball with Shanny, things would've proceeded much more smoothly. Russell Wilson is a shining example of how much humility can do for you. He was willing to learn and accept his role as a game manager, and ramped up his running game when he was asked to do it. Robert should've learned that from the get go. Unfortunately, as someone who's had unmitigated success not only in football but in track for years, his ego couldn't take the first setback he'd ever experienced. And we saw that fallout from that firsthand.

 

[skinsdad62]

there is no value if there is no trade if we pick a guy at 5 then all trades failed . then you go to talent on the field

you can say the boys were lucky and dismiss that they did their homework and picked the best players available if you want but that is just BS

Rg3 is tavaris jackson at this point in his career . RG3 is a scared pup who wont throw the ball when he has an open guy

he is the one that shot down the read option package

as a pocket passer as a student of the game as a guy learning his craft Rg3 is a train wreck and is an embarrassment to pocket passers everywhere

he would be a BU to colt brennan at this point

 

[redskinsfan]

there is no value if there is no trade if we pick a guy at 5 then all trades failed . then you go to talent on the field

you can say the boys were lucky and dismiss that they did their homework and picked the best players available if you want but that is just BS

Rg3 is tavaris jackson at this point in his career . RG3 is a scared pup who wont throw the ball when he has an open guy

he is the one that shot down the read option package

as a pocket passer as a student of the game as a guy learning his craft Rg3 is a train wreck and is an embarrassment to pocket passers everywhere

he would be a BU to colt brennan at this point

Read my other post on the "if there's no trade, there's no value." That simply is dead wrong. And the Cowboys were lucky. They reached for two guys that they could've gotten later. That's a fact. If they did do their homework, why didn't they pass on both and take someone else with their first rounder? That's where they lost out on value.