So I guess we are drafting Brandon Scherff

[Darrell Green Fan]

like the cowboys did when they picked a center who was rated as a 3rd round prospect and picked him 23 rd overall ?

this BPA vs need debate is foolish because its a combination of both

but to sell me that taking a guy 4 spots higher then most "experts " have him projected and call it a grand canyon sized reach is simply laughable

in the end i can be wrong scherf could be drafted late in round one and beasley is our pick . if so i will be on the beasley bandwagon or fowler or any other BPA out there

We don't see the team's boards, obviously the Cowboys had him rated higher. As for our discussion I am referring to your position that claimed there is no difference between the 5th pick and the 9th pick, which of course is nonsense, so there is no harm in picking the 9th rated player 5th if he fills a need.

 

[deanpet21]

Gruden said Moses is going to be ready in late April.

 

[Sharkinva]

Gruden said Moses is going to be ready in late April.

Thats great dude. Still doesnt change the fact that he sucks though does it?? YOu want to depend on the worst blocker on the team who is coming off of injury.. so you can draft either a 3rd string WR or a pass rusher and give up on Murphy?? Where is the logic in that??

 

[redskinsfan]

I'll ask this again for all those who don't consider a jump between the ninth and fifth overall picks a big deal. Before I do, I'll again note that the Browns swapped their fourth overall last year for the Bills ninth overall pick and their first and fourth this year. Keeping that in mind, what if the Rams (10th) or Giants (9th) wanted to swap picks with us? What do we ask for in exchange?

 

[kbso83432]

All I have been hearing lately is that the media is much much higher on Williams than the pro scouts. At this point I just have to put my faith in Scot and hope for the best. A 12 sack guy opposite RK, would be nice. We do however have a real shot at fixing this oline once and for all by going T/G in the 1st and going T/G in the 2nd. Can't wait till draft day.

 

[Sharkinva]

I'll ask this again for all those who don't consider a jump between the ninth and fifth overall picks a big deal. Before I do, I'll again note that the Browns swapped their fourth overall last year for the Bills ninth overall pick and their first and fourth this year. Keeping that in mind, what if the Rams (10th) or Giants (9th) wanted to swap picks with us? What do we ask for in exchange?

That all depends on the player thats on the board and IF we can get the guy we want by doing the trade. The real problem here is you insist on trying to place a set value on a draft pick position. While you MIGHT get the Giants to give up two firsts and a 3rd,

What happens if the 5th pick comes up, we have our board and at that time Cooper, White and Fowler are still on the board.. I will even throw you a bone and say the GM has all three rated slighlty higher than the guy they actually want

( for sake of arguement lets say they really wanted bob ubanks, QB from whatsa matta U, but had him rated as the 9th best player in the draft)

Now back to the hypothetical... for what ever reason no one wants to trade up to the 5th spot because they feel the guys they want will be there at nine and ten..... How much then is that 5th pick really worth in trade??

And do they pass on the guy they want even if he is rated as slightly less of a prospect than the other three guys??

 

[redskinsfan]

The smart poker player never tips his hand until he is ready to put the cards on the table. Many under estimate this kid and the impact he would have. But imagine having a Larry Allen type for his entire career.

Is that what you're crystal ball shows? What you mentioned before was that you'd take him because he'd fit a pressing need so long as he was a solid, average type OG. That really screws the pooch for us since we can get that type of player with a prospect like Laken Tomlinson. What you also keep skipping over is the value you give up by taking a player with a value, at best, around nine at the fifth spot. Last year, the Browns swapped their fourth overall choice with Bills for their ninth overall and this year's first and fourth rounders. That's what you're giving up if you take Scherff at #5, and that's assuming he's rated at #9. If he's rated higher, which I've seen plenty of, the lost opportunity cost is that much more.

The key again is to trade down, get more picks and to trust McCloughan to make the right calls in selecting a guard like Tomlinson that will fit our scheme and fill our need at that position for years to come.

 

[Sharkinva]

Is that what you're crystal ball shows? What you mentioned before was that you'd take him because he'd fit a pressing need so long as he was a solid, average type OG. That really screws the pooch for us since we can get that type of player with a prospect like Laken Tomlinson. What you also keep skipping over is the value you give up by taking a player with a value, at best, around nine at the fifth spot. Last year, the Browns swapped their fourth overall choice with Bills for their ninth overall and this year's first and fourth rounders. That's what you're giving up if you take Scherff at #5, and that's assuming he's rated at #9. If he's rated higher, which I've seen plenty of, the lost opportunity cost is that much more.

The key again is to trade down, get more picks and to trust McCloughan to make the right calls in selecting a guard like Tomlinson that will fit our scheme and fill our need at that position for years to come.

And I wil lask you one more time.. .what if we cant trade down and Scherff is in fact the pick... you going to lead the SM is clueless charge at that point??

Trust in our GM.. as long as he trades down or takes something more sexy than a RT or G at #5.

By the way the key is to do whats best for the team as a whole now AND in the future. That might not be trading down or taking a WR or Pass Rusher.

 

[redskinsfan]

I gotta agree with Shark, they can't miss on this pick. After reading how Fowler does not have that explosive first step, which is obviously critical to being a great pass rusher, I am cooling on this idea. He basically sounds a lot like they guy they already have at that spot who was taken in the 2nd round last year.

The flip slide is that he's got the size to stop the run and has no problems playing OLB (i.e., converting from DE) as he was used in several different roles in UF. He's still got plenty of a first step and, in view of his other attributes, he's a great fit for us. Think of a faster Ryan Kerrigan, and the fact that he'll be playing bookend to him. Other OLBs may be faster, but they are smaller (and some really that much so) that they become situational pass rushers most of the time.

But this all highlights the fact that we should trade down. That should be the gameplan here. And when/if we do, Scherff just might be there when we're on the clock.

 

[redskinsfan]

And I wil lask you one more time.. .what if we cant trade down and Scherff is in fact the pick... you going to lead the SM is clueless charge at that point??

Trust in our GM.. as long as he trades down or takes something more sexy than a RT or G at #5.

By the way the key is to do whats best for the team as a whole now AND in the future. That might not be trading down or taking a WR or Pass Rusher.

I will trust our GM. But my point is the reasoning behind your and dad's belief we should pick Scherff, and that's one where we completely discount value and take Scherff because of need. That's a horrible reason to pick anyone, especially as high as #5. If Scot does take Scherff at #5, I'll believe that he sees some type of perennial Pro-Bowler. In that case, the loss in terms of value is well worth it.

 

[Sharkinva]

I will trust our GM. But my point is the reasoning behind your and dad's belief we should pick Scherff, and that's one where we completely discount value and take Scherff because of need. That's a horrible reason to pick anyone, especially as high as #5. If Scot does take Scherff at #5, I'll believe that he sees some type of perennial Pro-Bowler. In that case, the loss in terms of value is well worth it.

Dude, if it was simply need, we have bodies to play on the oline. I cant speak for dad, but my whole thing is improving the TEAM.. not a position mind you but the team. And the best way to fix this TEAM long term is to fix the line long term. I have believed since last year Scherff was in fact the truth and the kind of O-lineman who will turn out to be great and I wanted him in DC. Like I said, IM old enough to actually remember what the Hogs did and where about. This kid is a HOG at heart. The fact that he addresses a current need does not deminish his value to this franchise going forward as well.

 

[Sharkinva]

Redskinsfan, DGF and all my tormentors... I will simply say this..

Research this kid. I mean really look at him over the last four years ( Dean you read each piece twice because you can be stubborn)

IF from everything you read, you can honestly tell yourself this kid isnt worth the 5th pick, I will respect your opinion. I might not agree. But if you look hard, you might get a glimpse of what i see.

As for the Fowler lovers.. IM in Gator country... Im not impressed.

 

[redskinsfan]

Dude, if it was simply need, we have bodies to play on the oline. I cant speak for dad, but my whole thing is improving the TEAM.. not a position mind you but the team. And the best way to fix this TEAM long term is to fix the line long term. I have believed since last year Scherff was in fact the truth and the kind of O-lineman who will turn out to be great and I wanted him in DC. Like I said, IM old enough to actually remember what the Hogs did and where about. This kid is a HOG at heart. The fact that he addresses a current need does not deminish his value to this franchise going forward as well.

Then improve the team the way winning teams do it. And one way NOT to do that is to reach for someone when you've got a pick in the top of the draft. I'm old enough to remember what the Hogs did too. And how many of them were top draft picks? LT Joe Jacoby and C Jeff Bostic, for instance, were undrafted FAs. Russ Grimm? Third rounder. The key? A Hall of Fame GM like Bobby Beathard.

 

[Sharkinva]

Then improve the team the way winning teams do it. And one way NOT to do that is to reach for someone when you've got a pick in the top of the draft. I'm old enough to remember what the Hogs did too. And how many of them were top draft picks? LT Joe Jacoby and C Jeff Bostic, for instance, were undrafted FAs. Russ Grimm? Third rounder. The key? A Hall of Fame GM like Bobby Beathard.

The thing here is, you are dead set on saying he would be a reach. And I think you are basing that off of the fact that you are hoping we trade down for more picks first and foremost.

As I said, look at the player. I mean really look at him. Dont base it off of what some blog says, or where he projects based off of the teams needs. Because that is what these big boards are based off of more often than not even if you wont admit it.


Really look at the player. And if you still think its a reach based on his abilities.... then I cant really say anything because its your opinion. And as for the Hogs comparison, you also should remember that when that line was assembled, most were seasoned vets. Free Agency was not what it is today. You say build through the draft... well that is exactly what I am suggesting. And if you really think there is a third rounder on his talent level, again I dont know what to tell you.

 

[redskinsfan]

The thing here is, you are dead set on saying he would be a reach. And I think you are basing that off of the fact that you are hoping we trade down for more picks first and foremost.

As I said, look at the player. I mean really look at him. Dont base it off of what some blog says, or where he projects based off of the teams needs. Because that is what these big boards are based off of more often than not even if you wont admit it.


Really look at the player. And if you still think its a reach based on his abilities.... then I cant really say anything because its your opinion. And as for the Hogs comparison, you also should remember that when that line was assembled, most were seasoned vets. Free Agency was not what it is today. You say build through the draft... well that is exactly what I am suggesting. And if you really think there is a third rounder on his talent level, again I dont know what to tell you.

I am looking at the player and reading reviews by people who are (former) NFL personnel guys. They all rate Scherff around #10 to #15 on their draft boards (as opposed to mocks). This is NOT to say that Scherff won't be good or great. The whole debate, however, concerns how you deal with competing interests of value and worth in a draft. And we've gone over that ad nauseum.

Also, four of the five of the original Hogs were acquired by the Redskins as rookies in either 1980 or 1981. The only one that wasn't was George Starke, who'd been around since 1972 when the Redskins drafted / acquired Jacoby, Grimm, Bostic, and May.

And how did you become a Redskins fan in Northern Florida?

 

[Sharkinva]

I am looking at the player and reading reviews by people who are (former) NFL personnel guys. They all rate Scherff around #10 to #15 on their draft boards (as opposed to mocks). This is NOT to say that Scherff won't be good or great. The whole debate, however, concerns how you deal with competing interests of value and worth in a draft. And we've gone over that ad nauseum.

Also, four of the five of the original Hogs were acquired by the Redskins as rookies in either 1980 or 1981. The only one that wasn't was George Starke, who'd been around since 1972 when the Redskins drafted / acquired Jacoby, Grimm, Bostic, and May.

And how did you become a Redskins fan in Northern Florida?

Four or five of the Hogs had been on the team in some capacity for years before they became the line we know as the hogs. With todays NFL, if guys arent starters by year three, in a good majority of the cases the team or the player has moved in a different direction.

And again I will simply point out, alot of these SCOUTS are basing their player rankings in part of of what teams picking in the top ten need. Hence the caviots that team A needs a Pass rusher so they would be thrilled to pick this player. OR do you just dismiss the fact that most people have us taking a pass rusher primarily because Orakpo is now gone??

As for how I became a Skinsfan, I grew up 1.25 miles from RFK, used to sneak into games 20 minutes after kickoff and the visiting team bus drove by my house going to and from the airport. Im in Florida because this is where my career took me.

 

[redskinsfan]

Four or five of the Hogs had been on the team in some capacity for years before they became the line we know as the hogs. With todays NFL, if guys arent starters by year three, in a good majority of the cases the team or the player has moved in a different direction.

And again I will simply point out, alot of these SCOUTS are basing their player rankings in part of of what teams picking in the top ten need. Hence the caviots that team A needs a Pass rusher so they would be thrilled to pick this player. OR do you just dismiss the fact that most people have us taking a pass rusher primarily because Orakpo is now gone??

As for how I became a Skinsfan, I grew up 1.25 miles from RFK, used to sneak into games 20 minutes after kickoff and the visiting team bus drove by my house going to and from the airport. Im in Florida because this is where my career took me.

Not the scouts I'm looking at. Like I said in my post, I'm looking at their big boards not mocks which are based on need. For that reason, that dispenses with your view that we're simply look for a Rak replacement. What you seem to miss is that, although we do need to fill a hole he left, it just happens that some OLBs are the BPAs at 4 and 5 overall. Thus, a mock and big board would both fit that need we have.

And RFK. Too bad we don't have that now. If we did go back, DC would make us change our name. I was born in DC and have been Redskins fan ever since. I'm at least glad to have been alive to watch their decade of greatness between '83 to '92 when they won three SBs, appeared in four, and were annual contenders for the crown.

 

[Sharkinva]

Not the scouts I'm looking at. Like I said in my post, I'm looking at their big boards not mocks which are based on need. For that reason, that dispenses with your view that we're simply look for a Rak replacement. What you seem to miss is that, although we do need to fill a hole he left, it just happens that some OLBs are the BPAs at 4 and 5 overall. Thus, a mock and big board would both fit that need we have.

And RFK. Too bad we don't have that now. If we did go back, DC would make us change our name. I was born in DC and have been Redskins fan ever since. I'm at least glad to have been alive to watch their decade of greatness between '83 to '92 when they won three SBs, appeared in four, and were annual contenders for the crown.

And what you seem to miss is that i think most of these OLB are over rated and the ones mocked to us have some rather glaring issues most seem to be willing to gloss over. Pass rushers in general have become almost as over hyped as QBs. I admit that Williams is the class of this draft. I even admit i would rank Cooper and White slightly above Scherff. But after that, I have him as my Fourth highest player in this draft. And thats not simply because we need O-line. I dont rank players on their great potential. Because truth is, you dont get to the point of being drafted without some kind of potential. To me a top five player shouldnt be the guy with the highesyt ceiling, but the guy with the highest floor. Meaning a top five pick should be the guy you feel relatively sure wont fail first and for most. I cant say that about Fowler, Beasley or Ray. Ranking on the possible greatness factor is what gets you RG3'd. In Hind site, tell me you dont wish we had simply stayed put and took Tannehill.

 

[redskinsfan]

And what you seem to miss is that i think most of these OLB are over rated and the ones mocked to us have some rather glaring issues most seem to be willing to gloss over. Pass rushers in general have become almost as over hyped as QBs. I admit that Williams is the class of this draft. I even admit i would rank Cooper and White slightly above Scherff. But after that, I have him as my Fourth highest player in this draft. And thats not simply because we need O-line. I dont rank players on their great potential. Because truth is, you dont get to the point of being drafted without some kind of potential. To me a top five player shouldnt be the guy with the highesyt ceiling, but the guy with the highest floor. Meaning a top five pick should be the guy you feel relatively sure wont fail first and for most. I cant say that about Fowler, Beasley or Ray. Ranking on the possible greatness factor is what gets you RG3'd. In Hind site, tell me you dont wish we had simply stayed put and took Tannehill.

Based on whose opinion? Not most of the proven NFL personnel guys. In this case, the 'sexy' pick is the better pick than Scherff. Almost NO ONE disagrees with me on this. NO ONE.

 

[Sharkinva]

Based on whose opinion? Not most of the proven NFL personnel guys. In this case, the 'sexy' pick is the better pick than Scherff. Almost NO ONE disagrees with me on this. NO ONE.

Again I will simply state that most of these guys thought RG3 was cant miss, Lavar Arrington would redefine the position. Most of these guys thought Dallas had made a mistake taking Fredericks AND Martin where they did. Most of the times the sexy pick is just that, a sexy pick. There is a reason why none of them can even agree on WHICH pass rusher is the best behind WIlliams... because as much as all have thier good traits, none of them is even close to being a complete player. Just because all the talking heads say these guys will be great does not automatically make it so, or the right pick in this instance.