Off Season Thread

[lasportzphan]

While the Giants and Cardinals further prove what a true team is, I like this letter to the editor in the times:

The Dodgers and Angels have clearly shown us that regular-season records and inflated payrolls, regardless of how impressive, do not make champions. Championships are earned in the postseason, and happen when each individual player performs to his maximum level of excellence for the benefit of the team. The postseason is a test of character, confidence in one's ability, and most of all, performance. When the game is on the line, champions will find a way to excel and win.

It's perfect timing that both teams, lacking the ability to perform when it mattered most, wimpishly exited the playoffs only days before a team that epitomizes the word "champion" — the Los Angeles Kings — took the ice. The stage has been cleared for the big boys. I suggest that the players on both teams are required to watch as many Kings games as possible as part of their off-season training to learn how champions play. And memo to the Dodgers: All Kings games are available on local TV.

Ronald Peters

 

[LASports96]

or 4 games mean nothing and the Cardinals got a few hits at the right time

but our bullpen was an issue regardless that lead to that happening, must improve this winter

 

[lasportzphan]

or 4 games mean nothing and the Cardinals got a few hits at the right time

but our bullpen was an issue regardless that lead to that happening, must improve this winter

11 playoff appearances in 14 years. 4 straight NLCSs. One World Series in last three years. Beating the Dodgers 7 out of 10 in last two seasons.

I think one organization understands winning and playoff baseball. Another is quite unevolved.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

11 playoff appearances in 14 years. 4 straight NLCSs. One World Series in last three years. Beating the Dodgers 7 out of 10 in last two seasons.

I think one organization understands winning and playoff baseball. Another is quite unevolved.

So you claim the organization sucks yet you defend Mattingly and Colleti to the end, interesting.

 

[lasportzphan]

So you claim the organization sucks yet you defend Mattingly and Colleti to the end, interesting.

Come on, I have always said our manager sucks. I can go back to numerous posts throughout the year. I just did not think his shitty managing is why we lost in the playoffs. We failed to hit or pitch regardless of his decisions.

I like that Colletti did not sell the farm midseason. One bullpen arm was not going to solve our plate approach in the playoffs. I do think Colletti has built shitty bullpens throughout the years via free agency. If he goes, fine. But begs the question, is there someone better out there to replace him? Same with Mattingly, fire him. But is there a better option?

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Come on, I have always said our manager sucks. I can go back to numerous posts throughout the year. I just did not think his shitty managing is why we lost in the playoffs. We failed to hit or pitch regardless of his decisions.

I like that Colletti did not sell the farm midseason. One bullpen arm was not going to solve our plate approach in the playoffs. I do think Colletti has built shitty bullpens throughout the years via free agency. If he goes, fine. But begs the question, is there someone better out there to replace him? Same with Mattingly, fire him. But is there a better option?

Colleti did enough to keep his job in my opinion but the rumor is that the Dodgers are keeping Mattingly, so Colleti may get the axe by default. I hear the Rays GM may be available.

 

[lasportzphan]

Colleti did enough to keep his job in my opinion but the rumor is that the Dodgers are keeping Mattingly, so Colleti may get the axe by default. I hear the Rays GM may be available.

I don't understand the Mattingly logic... They don't like his in game strategy but he holds the clubhouse together? Why not find a guy that can do both?

Meanwhile, Bum goes 7 2/3rds with a shutout. 33 million a year for Kershaw and he shits the bed in the playoffs. This still sucks.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

I don't understand the Mattingly logic... They don't like his in game strategy but he holds the clubhouse together? Why not find a guy that can do both?

Meanwhile, Bum goes 7 2/3rds with a shutout. 33 million a year for Kershaw and he shits the bed in the playoffs. This still sucks.

Both Cards and Giants have great Catchers and Managers. I know Ellis is supposed to be really good at calling pitches but the discrepancy in skill between he and Molina in that aspect was pretty clear. Ellis had a great series but it honestly makes me wonder how Russell Martin would do behind the plate for us.

 

[Silas]

The same Russell Martin who said he quit trying during his last year as a Dodger? The last thing the Dodgers need is a quitter, someone who only shows up when it's convenient . No thanks.

Should the Dodgers trade Puig? He'd bring a nice return, he's "trade friendly", and the Dodgers need to drop some OFers and fill some obvious holes. I can't see the Dodgers doing that, though.

As for playing like Champions, I agree that the Kings are the Poster Child for how to step up when the fancy marbles are on the table and that the Dodgers should study a few pages of that book.

The Dodgers have some great players, but they are not money players and don't have the heart of a champion. That's what Kasten and company need to fix. If that means firing Ned and/or Donnie and trading a guy like Puig, then I say do it.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Yeah, again, I'm just not sure that we are as far away as some think.

I can't take anything away from the Cards. As an organization, they have been sound all throughout history except for some off-decades in the 90s, 70s, and 50s. But the Giants really weren't after leaving NY, until 2010. I'll give them the WS appearances in 1989 and 2002. But really, those are the only two times they advance passed the NLDS (or the CS back when that was the first round), since they arrived to California, until 2010.

I do think this year will need to have been a turning point if we are going to get to that top tier (SF, STL, Boston to some extent, and the Yankees to some extent). I think that LA is in the next tier with Oakland, Anaheim, and Detroit. We're teams that have been knocking on the door for the past decade but still not able to be consistent enough for that first tier.

I think that with new ownership, new players, and yes, even though he was Torre's hitting coach, Donnie is a first time coach with only 4 years experience. I think if you have and two out of the three, the other area can coalesce smoothly. But when so much is new since Donnie took over, it's unrealistic to expect that having a new owner, new coach, and no real core to hold down almost a completely new roster of role players since 2010, to start shitting out WS rings. And this is all while going up against teams who have settled in and solidified the strength of their organization. I feel like if the Dodgers were in teh AL, it would have been a much easier run to the WS. But the Cards and Giants are hands down the two most consistently sound teams in baseball.

This season proved some things to me that I hope it also proved to the Dodgers:

1) Last season, the West title, and the trip to the NLCS were not flukes. We really are good enough to win the division, be a marker in the playoffs, and challenge teams. This is something that I don't think the Dodgers have had since the 80s. Seems like right when we were there again, it was under Torre, and he left.

2) The players now have the experience to get over the hump. These guys have another couple of years to play around each other with only few minor changes (back of the rotation, bullpen, and maybe a position player or two). But the bulk of this team has now had a couple/few seasons together. They have played together in seasons and in postseasons. Each player knows what his role is, has performed it, and knows what that role requires in the postseason. Overall, I think that having the experience of playing in 13 postseason games in the last two years is sufficient to have everyone realize what they, and everyone else should be doing.

3) Donnie knows the deal. Just like the players, but at a meso level instead of micro, Donnie has to know his team at this point. He has had the players and knows their limitations and capabilities. He has had a couple few years to see what needs to be fixed. The bullpen is the biggest issue. It's not going away. Defense is an issue. It's not going away. Like I said though, we have good hitting, and I don't think that it's as much of an issue, especially as the bullpen. I think situational hitting is a better issue to improve (and more correctable) than having no hitting.

I like the resources that the front office has gone with. Some haven't been the best choices, and some have. Ned has put us in a position to win, and I don't think he is at fault enough to get rid of. We can win with what we have.

I can honestly excuse what happened this year. I think it's what we needed to put us in a place for not having excuses for next year. Kershaw knows that he has a hump to get over. It wasn't just one bad start. He needs to think about how he can handle the pressure, and the stamina. Or, he needs to know when he can't. The guys need to handle the pressure of going to the plate and getting hits like they know they can. Seeing the postseason the last two years should push them to not be pressured next year. And the bullpen has to get better, just in general. Some of the bullpen problems are pressure related, and mostly it's just shit.

But I think next year is the year to have WS appearance expectations. It's like a college coach that needs 4 years to implement their system. I feel like this is an organization that needs time to coalesce. It's about that time. Every problem that I see with the dodgers besides the bullpen is a problem that I think needed time to solve. That time has come. And the realization that the Dodgers need a new pen is at a breaking point.

I think we are fine heading into next year. I see us with another strong season, making the playoffs, and then we will see if the Dodgers have made their strides. If not, then we need to ask the questions of which players and coaches don't have the ability to get it done. Who needs to go and who needs to stay.

Just remember though, the Dodgers have gone through some reall rough stretches since '88. And although it's not an excuse to accept mediocrity, I think we need to do some realistic redefining of our expectations. If we want to get rid of Donnie, or Coletti, or however many of the players some of you are talking about getting rid of, we also need to replace them that will surpass their current abilities. I don't think those guys are as available as many think. For example, I don't see an available coach right now that I would feel comfortable replacing Donnie with. Same goes for some of the players (other than the bullpen and maybe a SP). But I think that we have witnessed what it's like to not enjoy the position we are in, enough to at least recognize that we are closer than we have been in 25 years.

 

[CatsTopPac]

I guess what I mean with regard to that last bit is that this isn't the '92 Dodgers, and it isn't the '05 Dodgers. We are back to back division champs with a strong case to make for next year. We're not even limping in as a wildcard. We have problems in the playoffs and I think those came to light this year. I think this was still one of the best 4 teams we've had since '88. .580 winning percentage and division champs is nothing to shake a stick at. Second best winning percentage since '88, and second time we've gone back to back champs. Now yes, we didn't get to the NLCS, and that is what drops this year's team down behind '08, '09, and last year's team. But definitely not by much. I think having our 4 best season in the last 26 having occurred all in the last 7 years is a great place to be. I have to believe that our organization is moving in the right direction. Because as much as the Cards have made 4 straight NLCS, and the Giants have made 3 of the last 5 NLCS, the Dodgers are right there behind them with 3 of the 7. That's the next best team. We're not far.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

I wouldn't trade Puig for anything less than Mike Trout. He's a bit of a free swinger and gets overly-excited at times, but it's still very correctable and considering how far Puig has come in a matter of just one and a half seasons I'd say he's pretty likely to improve. Can you ignore his skill during the regular season because of a couple of postseason games extremely early on in his career?

CatsTopPac has a point though, our team is on the low end of playoff experience, that's one positive we can take from the Cardinal series I guess. For many players it was only their first or second appearance in October.

 

[SJ20]

I just don't feel like the Dodgers will win it all or even get to a World Series with Colletti and Mattingly in charge.

 

[Smed55]

I wouldn't trade Puig for anything less than Mike Trout. He's a bit of a free swinger and gets overly-excited at times, but it's still very correctable and considering how far Puig has come in a matter of just one and a half seasons I'd say he's pretty likely to improve. Can you ignore his skill during the regular season because of a couple of postseason games extremely early on in his career?

CatsTopPac has a point though, our team is on the low end of playoff experience, that's one positive we can take from the Cardinal series I guess. For many players it was only their first or second appearance in October.

Sorry, but playoff experience is overrated, the Atlanta Braves proved that in the 90's, the Royals are proving it this year.

The best team does not always win, if fact it happens often. The Dodgers are better than the Cardinals, the Cardinals just got some breaks and it worked out for them. Do you really think KC is better than the Angels, I don't think so, it happens.

It's like when people say that Kershaw choked, no he didnt, he pitched two really good games and it just didnt work out for him in the 7th twice. Wainwright didnt pitch very well in either of the playoff games he has pitched so far, does that mean he choked and just is a playoff, pressure situation pitcher, no, shit happens.

It's like I always say, the 88 Dodgers were not the best team in baseball, let alone in the National League, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good!

 

[LASports96]

the best team rarely wins, playoffs suck

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Sorry, but playoff experience is overrated, the Atlanta Braves proved that in the 90's, the Royals are proving it this year.

The best team does not always win, if fact it happens often. The Dodgers are better than the Cardinals, the Cardinals just got some breaks and it worked out for them. Do you really think KC is better than the Angels, I don't think so, it happens.

It's like when people say that Kershaw choked, no he didnt, he pitched two really good games and it just didnt work out for him in the 7th twice. Wainwright didnt pitch very well in either of the playoff games he has pitched so far, does that mean he choked and just is a playoff, pressure situation pitcher, no, shit happens.

It's like I always say, the 88 Dodgers were not the best team in baseball, let alone in the National League, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good!

2 examples and 1 from a different decade, ignoring the fact that KC has a really good bullpen, a gold glove catcher and a manager who's making good decisions this postseason.

The Angels played about as well as I expected them to play, the Dodgers on the other hand, they came up short.

 

[lasportzphan]

the best team rarely wins, playoffs suck

So the WS winner is not the best team and another team that loses is the best team? Uh, now you've said it all.

 

[Smed55]

So the WS winner is not the best team and another team that loses is the best team? Uh, now you've said it all.

I wouldn't say that the best team rarely wins, but it is true that the best team doesn't always win. The best "teams" usually make the playoffs, but that doesnt mean the best team is going to win. It's a 5 game playoff, anything can happen, the Astros had the Angels number for most of the season, does that mean the Astros are better than the Angels, absolutely not. The Dodgers usually struggle with the Padres, are the Padres better than the Dodgers, absolutely not. The Dodgers were swept by a couple of lesser teams this year, shit happens, and shit happened to the Dodgers when the Cards beat them.

I don't agree with this notion that the Cards play together as a team, that's bullshit and all teams that win say that, then some of them move to the next round and lose, again, shit happens. So when either the Cards or Giants lose ( two teams that supposedly play together as a team) what happened? One of them all of a sudden didn't play as a team?

for the most part the Dodgers outplayed the cards every game, we pretty much out hit and out pitched them except for one inning in each game and thats what counts I guess, but please the Cards didn't play
as a team, a couple of guys got huge, and I mean huge hits that they normally wouldn't!

They were last in the league in HR's and "usually" left-handed hitters don't hit left handed pitching very well, and all of a sudden they hit what 4 against left-handed pitching in four games, or was it 5HR's, it wasn't because they played well as a team, or that they have playoff experience, it pretty much comes down to
SHIT HAPPENS!

 

[lasportzphan]

I wouldn't say that the best team rarely wins, but it is true that the best team doesn't always win. The best "teams" usually make the playoffs, but that doesnt mean the best team is going to win. It's a 5 game playoff, anything can happen, the Astros had the Angels number for most of the season, does that mean the Astros are better than the Angels, absolutely not. The Dodgers usually struggle with the Padres, are the Padres better than the Dodgers, absolutely not. The Dodgers were swept by a couple of lesser teams this year, shit happens, and shit happened to the Dodgers when the Cards beat them.

I don't agree with this notion that the Cards play together as a team, that's bullshit and all teams that win say that, then some of them move to the next round and lose, again, shit happens. So when either the Cards or Giants lose ( two teams that supposedly play together as a team) what happened? One of them all of a sudden didn't play as a team?

for the most part the Dodgers outplayed the cards every game, we pretty much out hit and out pitched them except for one inning in each game and thats what counts I guess, but please the Cards didn't play
as a team, a couple of guys got huge, and I mean huge hits that they normally wouldn't!

They were last in the league in HR's and "usually" left-handed hitters don't hit left handed pitching very well, and all of a sudden they hit what 4 against left-handed pitching in four games, or was it 5HR's, it wasn't because they played well as a team, or that they have playoff experience, it pretty much comes down to
SHIT HAPPENS!

I think you are neglecting the mental aspect a bit. Players have to come to the plate with an approach and a pitch they are looking for.

Puig does not normally strikeout 8 times in 12 at bats. Puig had a rough 2013 playoff as well against the Cardinals as the moment appeared to big offensively and defensively. Mattingly noted that he had to talk to Puig about the waving towels, playoff energy etc in order to calm him down.

Kershaw was on the cusp on two solid outings but made huge pitching mistakes late in games. Uncharacteristic. Some may say fatigue, luck or mental - probably a little bit of all.

The Cardinals may have been lucky. But they clearly have an approach at the plate that slow down the game in the 7th inning and a strategy for pitches they are looking for. They clearly are more adept at the mental aspects in crunch time. I would surmise that playoff experience has a lot to do with that.

Cats noted that the Dodgers should be able to use the past two seasons of playoff upheaval to their advantage next year. Lets hope so because "being lucky" is starting to sound like an excuse for 26 years of no more than 5 playoff wins in a season.

 

[LASports96]

So the WS winner is not the best team and another team that loses is the best team? Uh, now you've said it all.

not necessarily, no

you think the Royals are better than the Angels? Giants better than the Nationals? etc