Fish or Cut Bait?

[Vitamike]

For the "Let's blow it up" guys...

Yep, I'm just not ready to say that right now or shall I say I'm not ready 'yet'....

Nor am I ready to say 'Screw Jeff, Sam or Les.

Lets face it, because of the RGIII trade, if you back one you back them all however if one must go, it will be Sam. He is the most expendable plus makes the most business sense to the cap and a rebuilding process of the three. Now we need to remember when we say 'Let's blow it up' that their is a cost involved. At what point do we even start asking ourselves do we "Fish or Cut Bait?" If only someone would have unlocked the secrets of that magical sliding ruler the Ancients invented years ago that told us 'when good money follows bad". Problem is, there is no such device.

Let's start from the beginning, now who can argue that Fisher wasn't a great fit at the time of hire for the Rams? Who was our second choice? Jeff Fisher has done it at the Professional level and done it well for a long time. Probably for a long time no Head Coach will ever come as close to winning a SB as Jeff did. If he was a good hire than, what has changed losing the last three out of four games? Not enough to shake me, so I say FISH

With Les, when do we start to evaluate a draft class? And what phase of the evaluation are we in for Les' 1st draft class? 20 games in? We certainly came out okay last year and for that reason alone, we all had high hopes regarding the job or better yet endeavor Les and Jeff were attempting to do. Since we drafted Sam we have turned the entire roster execpt for 6 players. That's out of 53! Our team is so freaking young and has ZERO time playing together and I think most regard this as a non factor in regards to our play. From that same time, we only have 4 starters out of 22. That's crazy! Of course we have no coaches, or schemes and no continuity for more than two years running to compliment those 6 players or 4 starters. This guy needs more time, without a doubt. Has he been perfect, hell no but he has been bold and not afraid to make his mark and live by em. GOTTA FISH

Now Sam was great in college. As a Pro, he has not earned anything outside of some credit on some good wins, some good 4th quarters wins, some bad losses and more than his share of bad quarters, period. Most can admit, at the time of the 2010 draft, if he didn't EARN the No. 1 seed overall, he certainly earned the No. 1 QB pick and probably the No. 2 Pick overall. And because we didn't have a QB, (Remember Bulger asked to be released after he was put on the IR in 2009) So Sam was a no brainer when we had the first pick overall that year. Let this team grow around Sam and FISH!

Now I backed the RGIII trade and we still have a first round pick to add on yet, so were not even close to being done (Maybe that's a true RB, OL guy in the first round or maybe a key Secondary guy but with a little more experience with all these young fellas and a right move here or there in FA next year we could be set up for the long haul. So with the help of this trade, we have completely overhauled our teams roster. We are in the middle of our current rebuild now so now is not the time to blow it up, now is the time to circle the wagons or better yet... Now is the time to FISH!

 

[Vitamike]

~ OR~

 

[zeke2829]

Sam is crippling this team with his huge salary and it is only going to get worse the next 2 years. I'm not suggesting getting rid of him. But he needs to take a huge pay cut so that we can sign some talented FA's. If he wants to win and remain on this team, he needs to restructure. There is NO WAY he is worth 27 mill in 2014/2015. NO WAY. If he refuses to take a pay cut, then send him packin and move on. We could bring in another verteran qb and draft one. Next years draft brings some talented qbs, so we will have to use 1 of our #1 picks on another qb. Im just tired of our top 2 highest paid guys just absolutely playing like crap.

 

[Retroram52]

Well for starters, we could dump Clemons and sign John Skelton to the back-up spot. Skelton is a big QB with one helluva arm and has a lot of fiestiness but we better fix the other two holes in the offense such as the O-line and RB mess or that move would be more pissing into the wind!

 

[jacobarch]

If Sam continues to struggle they will restructure his contract. Which is why they were saying they wanted to give him an extension. It would stretch out the money so it would free up money NOW. Plus the benefit of that is if we have to cut ties with him there is less guaranteed money that will need to be paid.

 

[Vitamike]

Sorry if I didn't make it clear however this thread is about putting 'Good Money Behind Bad' or better yet 'Fish or Cut Bait' for these three dudes:

Jeff Fisher
Les Snead
Sam Bradford.

I said Fish with all three. I understand that a lot of posters here on the Hoops Rams Pages are turning on Sam or at least that's the way it seems to me and somewhat on the other two as well.

So I started this thread.

Let me know with each are you still fishing or are you cutting bait?

And if you would be so kind, tell me why.

~ Thanks, Vita

 

[Rambunctious]

Sometimes a team just needs a good kick in the butt...maybe the last two games was the kick...we will see.

 

[fastforward]

2 years ago we were 2-14. In the 20 games since we are 8-1-11. We're not cutting ties with any of them before the new NFL year unless someone wants out and/or there's another job offer for 1 of them. We're not getting a QB better than Bradford anytime soon. There is no rush to make a decision about him.

 

[ksudodger]

I am still fishing.... I am not giving up on anything. I know I started a "blow it up" thread. They were just ideas of what we might do "if" we blow things up. I think honestly that the only thing that I might blow up is Schotty... it is obvious he does not know how to use the weapons he now has. Other than that and finding a veteran RB and a young backup QB (Cedric Benson and John Skelton work perfectly), I think this week will be the perfect confidence booster for the Rams.... Dunbar will come out with something to prove on defense and D Rich is 100% now so let's see what they can do... RUN IT UP BOYS... LEAVE NO DOUBT!!!

 

[Vitamike]

2 years ago we were 2-14. In the 20 games since we are 8-1-11. We're not cutting ties with any of them before the new NFL year unless someone wants out and/or there's another job offer for 1 of them. We're not getting a QB better than Bradford anytime soon. There is no rush to make a decision about him.

Well said fastforward but your comments are such as to state the realities involved and not how you feel! So even though your take really puts things in perspective (I thank you for that) there are times the brain trust and we as fans take a look at the current plan with hope and continue onward or we hope for change.

That said, how do YOU feel about each?

 

[UnrealTerm04]

Well for starters, we could dump Clemons and sign John Skelton to the back-up spot. Skelton is a big QB with one helluva arm and has a lot of fiestiness but we better fix the other two holes in the offense such as the O-line and RB mess or that move would be more pissing into the wind!

Skelton signed with the 49ers yesterday... This means we are still stuck with Clemons... Gawd he is so terrible...

 

[Vitamike]

I am still fishing.... I am not giving up on anything. I know I started a "blow it up" thread. They were just ideas of what we might do "if" we blow things up. I think honestly that the only thing that I might blow up is Schotty... it is obvious he does not know how to use the weapons he now has. Other than that and finding a veteran RB and a young backup QB (Cedric Benson and John Skelton work perfectly), I think this week will be the perfect confidence booster for the Rams.... Dunbar will come out with something to prove on defense and D Rich is 100% now so let's see what they can do... RUN IT UP BOYS... LEAVE NO DOUBT!!!

Thanks KSU! To be truthful, as much as I have been on Shotty's case, I'm still fishing with that dude too. Now I want him to think outside the box and surprise me, hell surprise the DC's in this league! But his limits are really being exploited with this young team. If the book says run the ball on first and second down inside the ten and hope to be in a 3rd and short situation, than that's most likely gonna be what you are going to get. So if our ST's keep putting us in those situations time and time again, coupled with the fact that we are challenged to run the ball we will continue get no offensive production. This team is young, they will run wrong routes, drop balls, fumble, throw pick 6's, hold, false start, set illegal formations and the list goes on. How can you try to run a balanced attack with those challenges?

Shotty has really found himself in a sink or swim situation. I actually like some things about this dude. He makes great half time adjustments and when he has a balanced attack, his play calling is pretty good. The bottom line, Shots needs to run with what he's got and play to his strengths and open things up. Once he has some success there things in the running game can succeed and with success comes confidence.

Now since you've opened up the 'fish or cut bait' aspect beyond those three in Fisher, Snead and Bradford. I'd say I'm getting close to cutting bait with Walton or maybe just shake things up a bit for now and put Dave McGinnis back at the helm during games and let Tim learn from him. Tim could help out with some of the Assistant Head Coach in game tasks too and grow from that experience as well.

 

[ANGELAKERAMS]

I am assuming this thread is referring to end of season and not immediately taking action.

That being the case, depending on how he plays the rest of the year, it may be time to cut bait with Bradford. Unless he shows something different the last 12 games, the guy just doesn't have the proverbial "it". Everyone has been making excuses for this guy since he was drafted and some of it was warranted ( ie WR, OL ). However, a good/great QB is supposed to make the guys around him better, not use them as a crutch to explain when you are not performing.

Look at who Brady has been throwing the ball to this season. A whole bunch of nobody's and he is getting it done. And his OL isn't what it used to be either and the defense definitely isn't what is once was, yet there they sit at 4-0. That is getting it done people. He is making the players around him better. That is what a good/great QB does.

This upcoming draft may afford the Rams the opportunity to cut bait with Sam and draft another QB. This upcoming draft will be deeper in QB talent than last and the cap hit in releasing/trading Sam will be less.

This may be the time to cut bait.

 

[fastforward]

My opinion…for what it’s worth:
As far as a professional sports franchise is concerned everyone is expendable. That includes the QB, GM, and HC. I don’t know what the relationship or financial situation is like for the management team, but it looks to me as though Snead is working for Fisher rather than Fisher working for Snead. That needs to change. Fisher may have been promised complete control over player transactions and finances. If so Snead’s hands are tied.
Fisher is a good HC. i’d like to keep him in that role. For the most part organisation, discipline, and team unity seem to be good. Fisher decides on the overall plan and delegates the duties downward. He is responsible for what goes on without trying to control everything himself. That’s as it should be. My criticisms are that he’s not proactive enough in fixing problems that arise, eg special teams penalties, and his questionable talent evaluation, especially of offensive linemen.
Snead I can take or leave. If the GM answers to Fisher it won’t much matter who has the job. If he doesn’t it would be better if the GM had a more analytical view of the O-Line since that appears to be a Fisher weakness. The GM should also be steering Fisher away from more receivers in the off-season and concentrating on obvious problems – low performance starters, RB depth, and DB depth. The emphasis has to be on value for money. We don’t need $6M Ss or $7M RBs. Future signings should be evaluated for what they will likely produce in the following 9 months rather than on what they did in ’11 & ‘12.
Schottenheimer, barring a major turnaround, is gone. I’ve supported him in the past. I thought he did a good job getting the best out of an awful Jets offense. His successor in that post validated that opinion. I thought he did a decent job last year given the in-season transition that was needed. People forget that we started as a 2-back power TE offense last year with Jackson at TB behind a FB and Mulligan as a blocking TE. We changed to a single-back set with Richardson along with 3 WRs and Kendricks as a receiving TE. This season has been a mess. Our O-Line and RB talent is nowhere but the schemes, formations, and plays show no understanding of our situation. The default position of a coordinator is to evaluate your strengths and weaknesses along with those of the opponents. Plan-A is to use your strengths and attack the opponent’s weaknesses. Next you evaluate things from the opponent’s point of view. What will they likely do if their evaluation is the same as yours? What measures will they take to nullify your strengths and hide their weaknesses? You devise the best Plan-B you can with that analysis. Plan-C is for when everything goes to hell and you’re 2 scores behind. Plan-A against the 49ers, a team starting their 2nd and 4th choice CBs, was to run a balanced offense with inside runs and WR routes that allowed Ss to become a factor. That’s awful work. He’s been poor this year and this is a results business.
Bradford is a keeper unless a clearly better option becomes available. I’ll say this again: The difference between keeping and releasing Bradford is $12 ½M and a decision isn’t required until September 2014. If and when a good alternative becomes available is when you make a decision to move on. If the analysis in February/March suggests that Bradford isn’t worth $10M in 2014 the team should actively and quietly seek out alternatives as a priority. I wasn’t kind to Bradford in 2011 or 2012. He’s been good in 2013 until the 49ers game. He has clear weaknesses. He will never be mobile following the high-ankle sprain that failed to fully heal. He’s not a sideline motivator or leader. He doesn’t audible out of plays that are unlikely to succeed. His pocket presence isn’t good. Even so he’s still better than about 10 other starters, every back-up QB, and every QB who is a free agent. It might be 10 years before we get another QB as good as Bradford. I wouldn’t be in a hurry to move on – hence the difference between his $12½M salary and my $10M base-line. Without a long-term successor the only reason to cut Bradford would be a $7½M, or lower, evaluation and the availability of a QB at $3M who would be value for that money. Even then Bradford might have possible trade value.
Walton hasn’t impressed as DC but 4 games with inexperienced starters and weak depth at DB isn’t enough to evaluate him on. Provisionally he stays.

Fisher – fish.
Snead – cut bait, but i’m not fussed.
Schottenheimer – cut bait.
Bradford – fish.
Walton fish, too early to cut bait.

 

[ANGELAKERAMS]

A closer look at Sam Bradford's struggles - St. Louis Rams Blog - ESPN

This article pretty much sums up my stance on Bradford.

 

[jacobarch]

A closer look at Sam Bradford's struggles - St. Louis Rams Blog - ESPN

This article pretty much sums up my stance on Bradford.

People said the same thing about Kurt Warner when people in St. Louis were sooooo quick to run him out of town. I'm going to laugh, and laugh hard if he goes some where else and becomes a SB champ. There are a ton of teams that would give their left nut to take a shot with Bradford.
Don't get me wrong I am NOT defending Bradford nor am I saying he's the next Kurt Warner or even close for that matter. But he can be a good QB and we've all seen it when his Team mates and coaches play to his strengths.

 

[jacobarch]

I am assuming this thread is referring to end of season and not immediately taking action.

That being the case, depending on how he plays the rest of the year, it may be time to cut bait with Bradford. Unless he shows something different the last 12 games, the guy just doesn't have the proverbial "it". Everyone has been making excuses for this guy since he was drafted and some of it was warranted ( ie WR, OL ). However, a good/great QB is supposed to make the guys around him better, not use them as a crutch to explain when you are not performing.

Look at who Brady has been throwing the ball to this season. A whole bunch of nobody's and he is getting it done. And his OL isn't what it used to be either and the defense definitely isn't what is once was, yet there they sit at 4-0. That is getting it done people. He is making the players around him better. That is what a good/great QB does.

This upcoming draft may afford the Rams the opportunity to cut bait with Sam and draft another QB. This upcoming draft will be deeper in QB talent than last and the cap hit in releasing/trading Sam will be less.

This may be the time to cut bait.

I have to rebuttal some of what you said.....
Rookie year no one was calling for Bradfords head, everyone loved and said "we scored"
Second year, ok ya he didn't play good. Lets look at facts (not excuses) No offseason, new coordinator, Josh McDaniels didn't have the right players for his scheme to work in STL. Plus Bradford got hurt half way though.
3rd year, had an ok season better than his rookie season but played pretty well overall. No one was saying he was a bust last year. Only the absolute haters.
Current year, First two games...Over 300 yards each game and scored with ease. Everyone was pretty stoked even tho we were only 1-1. Last two games, yes he's/we've been terrible......Now this is where I might lose some of you. There's this thing, it's called coaching. See teams saw that we were only running for 2.5 ypc with only 7 people in the box. So they did this thing called "scheming" to play the pass. They also saw that Schotty loves calling the 5 yard route game so they adjusted. When push comes to shove, we didn't adjust, and we couldn't adjust. When you can't run and they have 5+DB's back in coverage and they are playing the under routes we are going to lose every time. Also, the Dline is going to pin their ears back and go straight after the QB and when they can get there with ease with only 4 guys you're going to have a long long day.

Next thing you're comparing Bradford to Brady, thats where you lose all credibility in trying to prove a point. One Brady is one of the best, if not the best QB to ever play the game. Brady has 10X the coaches around him. Brady has a better Oline and they can actually run the ball when they need to (see their last game). Yes Brady is making it work with the guys he has but honestly he has a way better team around him than Bradford does ATM. It's hard to argue with that btw. Look at the stats.......

We're bottom of the league in.....
Running
Passing
dropped balls
penalties (most)
sacks (last two games)
run block & pass blocking
Defense ......period we're absolutely terrible on Defense.
Running
passing

Only area we're not bottom is our kickers.......lol pathetic.

Now tell me where the pats are w/ those stats? I promise you not anywhere near the bottom. Teams started to scheme against brady and their bunch formation dump off passes. What did they do? They changed up the coaching in the last game. They ran the ball and ran it well, they went to their young WR's and went away from Toms security blanket and it worked brilliantly. Now it might change when they play better teams (unless they get Gronk back)

IMO Fisher is making the same exact mistake that Spags made in his 2nd year....Not continuing to improve on what they did LAST YEAR. They are completely changing up their football philosophy. They wen't from smash mouth football to thinking they're the GSOT. And on defense I think he overthought the roll of D coord. Lets face Black Williams did pretty well w/ the defense last year and he's doing pretty good this year as well. He wen't for a guy that had absolutely no experience (on a bad defensive team) over a guy that no one liked but had the defense performing at a high level.

Sorry ANGEL, much respect, i just disagree and had to give my 2 cents

 

[SJ76]

We have to fish. We can't blow it up because we have picks anyway.

But what will the FO do? Pead and Quick (2nd rounders) are killing us. Whoever falls in love with these guys after the combine needs to be replaced.

Alston Jeffrey and Lamar Miller would be sweet right now.

 

[fastforward]

Ironically our pass-blocking hasn't been that bad. We failed to scheme against the Cowboys and chip-block with our TEs. We did that against the 49ers and they rarely got quick outside pressure on Bradford. I've said this before but Bradford performs best when he believes that he's being well protected, even if he isn't being protected at all. Oh for a hypnotherapist and psychiatrist!
At this point i'd rather run a spread offense and see what happens.

 

[ANGELAKERAMS]

JA

I agree with your points.

Yes, Brady is one of the best, but that was exactly the point I was making. A great QB makes those around him better. He doesn't need superior talent around him to play well. Bradford has never shown the ability to make the guys around him better. I don't think he inspires the guys he plays with the way a Peyton, Tom, Drew, etc do.

Also, when do we stop making all these excuses for Bradford and start putting the blame on him? Because, so far, he's been given an excuse as to why he isn't performing like a #1 overall pick.

If the Rams dump Scotty like most here suggest, do we go with Bradford for another 2-3 years because he will be changing OC's again? And if so, how many better QB's will the Rams be passing on to do so.

To me, and this is just my opinion, the excuses have to stop. He needs to step up and take the reins of this team and play like the franchise QB he was drafted to be. Just like another poster mentioned earlier, he never audibles or checks out of plays that look like they won't work. So, either he is not as smart as scouts claimed he was or he just can't read a defense. In either case, that spells doom for a QB.

I just don't see the "it" in Bradford. I hope he proves me wrong. But, I'm tired of myself and everyone else making excuses as to why he hasn't taken the next step. The blame needs to be put on his shoulders as well.

Much respect JA.