Did Michael Jordan ruin basketball? Absolutely!

[Epoch1]

Bulls teams played great team basketball.

Yes they did!

And to think all they had for a big man was Bill Cartwright... but great role players are as important as the stars. Bulls proved that.

 

[Jims_Doors]

You're kind of proving my point. The NBA changed the rules to make it easier on MJ... and in turn hand-cuffed team defense.

Lebron is just one of those guys that benefited from those rules changes. Change them back and Lebron wouldn't be half the player MJ was even before those rules changes.

MJ didn't need the changes... it was the NBA that wanted to free him so he could put on an ever better show. Without them LBJ would be pretty average.

All ok....yeah, sure, whatever.

 

[Epoch1]

Right, so why was it that he ruined basketball? For a second there I didn't realize we were just trolling BronBron fans again. (Flagrant foul rule was implemented during The Bulls FIRST championship season. Weird timing to say the least.)

Because... and this is just my opinion... because he helped usher in the sort of rules changes that ruined team basketball and put the NBA's focus on protecting superstars and ruining the team aspect of basketball. To be fair, maybe it should be stated that, while it was Stern and the NBA that changed the game to fit his style of play, MJ was the catalyst for those changes.

IMO, it was the end of basketball as I knew it.

 

[erckm510]

This thread turned into a LeBron bashfest pretty fast.

 

[Inimical]

Because... and this is just my opinion... because he helped usher in the sort of rules changes that ruined team basketball and put the NBA's focus on protecting superstars and ruining the team aspect of basketball. To be fair, maybe it should be stated that, while it was Stern and the NBA that changed the game to fit his style of play, MJ was the catalyst for those changes.

IMO, it was the end of basketball as I knew it.

I dunno, all he did was play ball bro.

 

[Epoch1]

All ok....yeah, sure, whatever.

Did you ever hear of the "crab-dribble" before James mentioned it? James has no idea what a charge is. He lives in a world that no other player could dream of.

An all time defensive player that averages about 1 foul a game? Come on... in what dimension does that happen?

He's like a bull in a china shop that never gets billed for the destruction he wreaks upon other players.

He get more help from the refs than any player I've ever watched. And I've been watching since the 1950's

 

[Epoch1]

I dunno, all he did was play ball bro.

Very true. MJ didn't argue with the refs and demand that the rules be changed. It was Stern and the NBA marketing crew that did all that. They saw what was coming and decided that the stars were bigger than the game. Not intentional on MJ's part. It just happened that way because he was too good to be true.

With Bird and Magic gone... promoting him was all the NBA had to lean on for success.

 

[tlance]

It might still be alive... but it's on life-support.

In 1986 Jordan scored 63 point in a superhuman effort that many called the greatest NBA game ever played. His TEAM still lost. Bird described MJ's play as "God disguised as Michael Jordan"

"He was hitting outside shots, driving to the hole. We had about everyone on the team guarding him," recalled Bird, now the Pacers president. "He obviously was in a zone. He kept them in the game with big basket after big basket. We couldn't stop him. We tried to shade him to help, everything. You were talking about a different type of talent."

He scored 49 points in the game before that one... his TEAM still lost. MJ learned from that series. He realized that he needed a TEAM to win.

The Bulls got him the help he needed, After that, he made history.

It's a shame that James could never figure that out.

James actually figured that out before Jordan did. That is why he left Cleveland. Say what you will about the Heat playing iso ball, but LeBron uses his teammates better than Jordan ever did.

 

[tlance]

Did you ever hear of the "crab-dribble" before James mentioned it? James has no idea what a charge is. He lives in a world that no other player could dream of.

An all time defensive player that averages about 1 foul a game? Come on... in what dimension does that happen?

He's like a bull in a china shop that never gets billed for the destruction he wreaks upon other players.

He get more help from the refs than any player I've ever watched. And I've been watching since the 1950's

The exact same things were said about Jordan in the 90s, except for the bull in a china shop part, but you are proving my point about the game being more physical today, just without the non-basketball plays that were tolerated back then.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

It is an interesting argument that has its merits.


If we back away from the immediate Knee Jerk reaction defending Jordan as the greatest player who ever played and is immune to criticism......


You could argue that Jordan was the catylyst and original seed of the PLAYER league instead of TEAM league.


Promoting superstars had been around before MJ, but Michael Jordan was the individual who took it to super prominence and the de facto method of business ever since.


Some of the mess we have now in free agency can trace its lineage back to the SUPERSTAR > TEAM concept that Jordan certainly helped bring.


But, we cannot really blame Jordan.
He was just the right guy in the right place at the right time.


Every other player in history probably would have done the same thing if they had his talent and the opportunity coming together.

 

[Epoch1]

James actually figured that out before Jordan did. That is why he left Cleveland. Say what you will about the Heat playing iso ball, but LeBron uses his teammates better than Jordan ever did.

James had team that had the best record in the NBA. Come the playoffs he resorted to the only style he knows and tried to do it all himself. When they lost he threw them under the bus.

He quit on them against the Celtics and then bolted to join a team that was signed under dubious circumstances. He can't take any credit for that. It was Riley's doing.

Now he thinks he's going home to bring them a title? Call me when it happens.

And that is the last comment I'll have about James. He shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as MJ.

 

[tlance]

Did you ever hear of the "crab-dribble" before James mentioned it? James has no idea what a charge is. He lives in a world that no other player could dream of.

An all time defensive player that averages about 1 foul a game? Come on... in what dimension does that happen?

He's like a bull in a china shop that never gets billed for the destruction he wreaks upon other players.

He get more help from the refs than any player I've ever watched. And I've been watching since the 1950's

Do you know what a crab dribble is? It is part of basketball lexicon and has been for a long time. There really isn't anything special about it. Not sure why it is mentioned here.

 

[tlance]

It is an interesting argument that has its merits.


If we back away from the immediate Knee Jerk reaction defending Jordan as the greatest player who ever played and is immune to criticism......


You could argue that Jordan was the catylyst and original seed of the PLAYER league instead of TEAM league.


Promoting superstars had been around before MJ, but Michael Jordan was the individual who took it to super prominence and the de facto method of business ever since.


Some of the mess we have now in free agency can trace its lineage back to the SUPERSTAR > TEAM concept that Jordan certainly helped bring.


But, we cannot really blame Jordan.
He was just the right guy in the right place at the right time.


Every other player in history probably would have done the same thing if they had his talent and the opportunity coming together.

 

[tlance]

James had team that had the best record in the NBA. Come the playoffs he resorted to the only style he knows and tried to do it all himself. When they lost he threw them under the bus.

He quit on them against the Celtics and then bolted to join a team that was signed under dubious circumstances. He can't take any credit for that. It was Riley's doing.

Now he thinks he's going home to bring them a title? Call me when it happens.

And that is the last comment I'll have about James. He shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as MJ.

No he shouldn't. At least not yet.

But you are a LeBron hater. Those Cavs played the same way in the playoffs that they did in the regular season, but they weren't good enough to beat a more balanced true team (Celtics). That was not LeBron's fault.

 

[Epoch1]

It is an interesting argument that has its merits.


If we back away from the immediate Knee Jerk reaction defending Jordan as the greatest player who ever played and is immune to criticism......


You could argue that Jordan was the catylyst and original seed of the PLAYER league instead of TEAM league.


Promoting superstars had been around before MJ, but Michael Jordan was the individual who took it to super prominence and the de facto method of business ever since.


Some of the mess we have now in free agency can trace its lineage back to the SUPERSTAR > TEAM concept that Jordan certainly helped bring.


But, we cannot really blame Jordan.
He was just the right guy in the right place at the right time.


Every other player in history probably would have done the same thing if they had his talent and the opportunity coming together.

Very well said! I never meant to suggest that Jordan needed the changes. He was probably the best individual as far as physical talent the league has ever seen.

 

[tlance]

Very well said! I never meant to suggest that Jordan needed the changes. He was probably the best individual as far as physical talent the league has ever seen.

Actually, that is LeBron.

The reason why LeBron won't surpass MJ isn't because of talent, it is all about Jordan's competitive drive and mental toughness. As far as physical talent though, nobody in the history of the game can touch LeBron.

 

[(Un)]

I came across this article today and it asked a question that I have been debating since the 1990's.

The writer says what I've been saying ever since the NBA started promoting ISO ball and highlighting players rather then teams.

The win by the Spurs this year brought appreciation for TEAM basketball back... if only for this year. The Spurs proved that a great TEAM will always beat a great player.

Anyone want to chime in?

I was always under the impression the NBA began marketing players over teams starting with Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. I know the writer wants to shrug that off but I don't think it started with Jordan; Jordan simply earned a larger spotlight.

 

[Epoch1]

Thanks for the comments and input people. I'm signing off for the night.

Have a good Monday... if that's possible.

 

[(Un)]

And I fully by into the players over teams mindset in regards to how I follow the NBA.

IMO the NBA is a league of haves and have-nots. There's simply not enough superstars to go around. And while I agree that the Spurs championship run was an exhibition of team basketball unparalleled in present day basketball, it did absolutely nothing to change my belief that you NEED superstars to win a championship (San Antonio had a big three of their own).

 

[podsox]

James actually figured that out before Jordan did. That is why he left Cleveland. Say what you will about the Heat playing iso ball, but LeBron uses his teammates better than Jordan ever did.

the one thing that LeBron hasn't learned is to pick his spots. Jordan knew when it was time for him to take over. bron still hasn't quite figured that out yet.. he blew his load in the first quarter of 3 of the 5 games against the spurs