adjusting stats by ballpark

[MilkSpiller22]

I know that there is a difference between ballparks, where some are harder to do something while others are easier.... But how much does a ballpark really affect players stats??

I just don't see it to be very significant, especially when we talk about careers... I usually avoid adjusted stats for that reason, unless I adjust it myself(which I only do if I compare similar players where the other stats are inconclusive)...

Does anyone think the difference is significant??

 

[Mistaken4193]

My Question is do teams build their ballparks to suit the kind of team they want to have???

 

[MilkSpiller22]

My Question is do teams build their ballparks to suit the kind of team they want to have???

IDK, but it bothers me when teams like the Mets bring in their fences... You had an advantage, build your team around your stadium, don't cookie cut your stadium and take away your advantage...

 

[broncosmitty]

Those fences were a bit ridiculous. Like Comerica back in the day. Both are still very large outfields.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Those fences were a bit ridiculous. Like Comerica back in the day. Both are still very large outfields.

But if you know your fences are pushed too far, then build your team around that... That's what good teams do, they build their teams around their ballpark... Look at the Yankees, they always got players that would do well in their ball park...

If your fences are too far, then speed, pitching, defense and slap hitting would be needed...

 

[Nasty_Magician]

100% it has an impact on stats. Take a place like Oakland with miles of foul territory compared to Fenway with absolutely no foul territory. How many more swings does that lead to? How many foul outs don't occur playing at Fenway. It changes your whole approach at the plate. You can go up there and just keep hacking away foul balls and working the count. There's no guarantee of that in a place like Oakland where just getting contact on the ball could still lead to an out.

The fences being in change things drastically as well. Saw a Mets-Phillies game this year where there was I believe a 333 foot home run. 333 feet should not be a home run, that is a fly ball out in just about any other park.

 

[broncosmitty]

But if you know your fences are pushed too far, then build your team around that... That's what good teams do, they build their teams around their ballpark... Look at the Yankees, they always got players that would do well in their ball park...

If your fences are too far, then speed, pitching, defense and slap hitting would be needed...

Had a post about the Yankees targetting lefthanded pull hitters, but it came anti-Yankee, so I didn't post it. (I might be anti-Yankee, but not for how they build their lineup or who they build it around.)

I agree that smart teams should build their lineup around the confines where they play half their games. But.... when your home park is such an outlier, it can affect you negatively. Your chances of landing FA's, players developing bad habits at the plate or in the field, pitchers leaning on home park advantages.... Etc. (Very frustrating to see players brought in who aren't best suited to their home park. Softball plodding outfielders being the first that comes to mind for me.)

As far as + stats go, there's too much involved for me to value field adjustments much. (Era to era being different.) Time of game, on the clock and calendar, players involved, team scheme, weather, random offensive outbursts(this affects a lot stats, regular old ERA can be thrown off substantially by one or two outings...) pitchers involved....

 

[MilkSpiller22]

My biggest problem with adjusted stats is that it adjusts players of each stadium equally...

Ballpark only really affects flyball hitters or flyball pitchers(except for stadiums like Oakland with so much foul territory in play)...

Why should ground ball pitchers get the same affect as flyball pitchers, and groundball hitters, with flyball hitters...

 

[Indrid Cold]

Looks at Chuck Klein's stats in the Baker Bowl...an example from '33, his Triple Crown Year.
.467/.516/.789 with 20 HRs at home, .280/.338/.436 with 8 HRs on the road.
This is actually pretty typical for his time in Philly...that park specifically helped lefties very dramatically, look at it on the Andrew Clem stadium website to see why.

A modern example...Dante Bichette in CO, '95.
.377/.397/.755 with 31 HRs at home, .300/.329/.473 with 9 HRs on the road.
Again, not unusual for him in general and other guys in CO. You might say, "He still hit .300 on the road", but he slugged almost .300 higher at home...MASSIVE advantage.

 

[obxyankeefan]

This has always been my mine problem with advanced stats. Why punish a player for using the stadium they are going to play half there games in. All stats have flaws and IMO take the stadium stats out of advanced stats.

Pull up splits, as Indrid Cold did, if you think it should be in the discussion.

 

[obxyankeefan]

another issue I have with stadium adjustment is it changes from year to year. If AFC makes no changes how is it a hitters park in the 80s, but a pitchers park in the 90s? Why should Comerica become a hitters park just because Fielder had a good year?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

another issue I have with stadium adjustment is it changes from year to year. If AFC makes no changes how is it a hitters park in the 80s, but a pitchers park in the 90s? Why should Comerica become a hitters park just because Fielder had a good year?

100% agree

 

[Indrid Cold]

This has always been my mine problem with advanced stats. Why punish a player for using the stadium they are going to play half there games in. All stats have flaws and IMO take the stadium stats out of advanced stats.

Pull up splits, as Indrid Cold did, if you think it should be in the discussion.

I can't multi-quote for some reason...I guess I don't see it as a punishment, just an attempt to get closer to a player's true skills. I don't think you can have a correct understanding of how great a hitter Joe DiMaggio was without seeing how much Yankee Stadium's insane LF power alley hurt his HR totals, and you're in danger of making a grave mistake if you think Larry Walker, Dante Bichette, and Andres Galarraga were truly legendary hitters just coincidentally when they happened to play in CO.
Ryne Sandberg was one of my favorite players when I was young...I was so excited when he hit 40HRs as a second baseman. I still think he was great, but have to accept that Wrigley had a lot to do with that total.

 

[Indrid Cold]

another issue I have with stadium adjustment is it changes from year to year. If AFC makes no changes how is it a hitters park in the 80s, but a pitchers park in the 90s? Why should Comerica become a hitters park just because Fielder had a good year?

Well, any data will have some noise in it, and certainly weather and winds are not going to be the same from year to year. And, parks will have subtle changes made that seem to have big effects...enclosing the froufrou rich folks area behind home plate in Fenway seemed to have changed the wind patterns dramatically.
I can guarantee you that there was no year that old Yankee Stadium was a good place for righties or the Baker Bowl was a tough place for lefties.

 

[steveringo]

I think they should be adjusted. The question is how much....

I wonder if we/they should separate OPS+/ERA+ into two stats - one adjusted for league averages, and one for park adjustment...

 

[DragonfromTO]

I think you're misinterpreting the idea of park adjusted stats a little. I would say they're not really telling you what that particular pitcher would do in a neutral ballpark, they're telling you what a pitcher would have to do in a neutral ballpark to create the same value as what that particular pitcher actually did in his ballpark.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think they should be adjusted. The question is how much....

I wonder if we/they should separate OPS+/ERA+ into two stats - one adjusted for league averages, and one for park adjustment...

i would like the comparison to the MLB average more than the park adjustment... after all it does a little park adjustment too... i think that has some merit... But generally i still like the unadjusted stats better than the adjusted stats...

 

[steveringo]

i would like the comparison to the MLB average more than the park adjustment... after all it does a little park adjustment too... i think that has some merit... But generally i still like the unadjusted stats better than the adjusted stats...

The main reason we need the adjusted stats is to compare different generations... You can't compare a 3.00 ERA in 1976 to a 3.00 ERA in 1996...

 

[obxyankeefan]

The main reason we need the adjusted stats is to compare different generations... You can't compare a 3.00 ERA in 1976 to a 3.00 ERA in 1996...

When comparing different eras, we need the stats adjusted to that era and I would go so far as saying each season. But the adjustment IMO should be on what the league average is not each park.

Your thread about the top twenty pitchers is a great example of this, both Mill's and my formulas do not adjust for eras. My formula puts most all the top twenty coming from the dead all era.

 

[obxyankeefan]

I can't multi-quote for some reason...I guess I don't see it as a punishment, just an attempt to get closer to a player's true skills. I don't think you can have a correct understanding of how great a hitter Joe DiMaggio was without seeing how much Yankee Stadium's insane LF power alley hurt his HR totals, and you're in danger of making a grave mistake if you think Larry Walker, Dante Bichette, and Andres Galarraga were truly legendary hitters just coincidentally when they happened to play in CO.
Ryne Sandberg was one of my favorite players when I was young...I was so excited when he hit 40HRs as a second baseman. I still think he was great, but have to accept that Wrigley had a lot to do with that total.

Multi quote has been broken for a few days now

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. When discussing different players, their splits should be discussed. I just think it should not be part of the adjusted stats. Unless you are going to have home OPS+ and away OPS+ for example.