A better way of determining if the puck crossed the goal line

[Darkstone42]

I would think it would be a lot easier to implement a sensor system in a hockey goal than it would be to have one across an entire goal line

In addition to that, where do you put a computer chip in an inflated ball? In a solid rubber puck, it's easy to fix it in the center. In a football? Not so much. The puck also has cylindrical symmetry, which simplifies the chip's programming.

It's easier to do for hockey.

 

[IPostedWhat]

I would think it would be a lot easier to implement a sensor system in a hockey goal than it would be to have one across an entire goal line

What's the difference? Do you think a laser grid is limited by the size of the area?

All you need is a starting and end point and the sensor in the ball.

 

[IPostedWhat]

In addition to that, where do you put a computer chip in an inflated ball? In a solid rubber puck, it's easy to fix it in the center. In a football? Not so much. The puck also has cylindrical symmetry, which simplifies the chip's programming.

It's easier to do for hockey.

You use those flat sensors that are placed on electronics. You just put it under the top layer of the football.

 

[elocomotive]

I would think it would be a lot easier to implement a sensor system in a hockey goal than it would be to have one across an entire goal line

Plus, the net obstructs the view. The view of the goal line in the NFL is open and usually captured from multiple camera angles.

Tennis uses imaging very effectively. I have little doubt this will be the way that most sports will do things in the future, whether its a machine that calls balls and strikes or a sensor in a puck or ball to determine goals, fair/foul, touchdowns, etc. It's just a matter of time.

 

[Darkstone42]

You use those flat sensors that are placed on electronics. You just put it under the top layer of the football.

The problem of programming is still an issue. There's no model for a football shape, and devising one could take years. It might required developing an entire new graphing system.

 

[Jack_John_Mark]

Darkstone is thinking more along the lines that I am thinking...........however, what about my idea of mixing in the magnetic material? A puck is just a block of rubber which I'm sure is just melted rubber put into a round mold..........why not swirl in some magnetic material and then have mangetically tripped sensors?

 

[IPostedWhat]

The problem of programming is still an issue. There's no model for a football shape, and devising one could take years. It might required developing an entire new graphing system.

That's why we have the Chinese.

 

[Jack_John_Mark]

That's why we have the Chinese.

LOL........I just graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science (Programming) last month. That's really what drew my attention to this thread. I'm like a white asian

 

[Darkstone42]

Darkstone is thinking more along the lines that I am thinking...........however, what about my idea of mixing in the magnetic material? A puck is just a block of rubber which I'm sure is just melted rubber put into a round mold..........why not swirl in some magnetic material and then have mangetically tripped sensors?

The problem would be homogeneity. Rubber is an insulator, which would make that very difficult. Additionally, a magnetic sensor could be tripped too easily by small currents caused by friction between the goalies' skates and the goal posts.

What it all comes down to is that magnetic fields are the products of currents. If there's no current, there's no magnetic field. It would be really hard to get current in a rubber puck.

 

[Jack_John_Mark]

The problem would be homogeneity. Rubber is an insulator, which would make that very difficult. Additionally, a magnetic sensor could be tripped too easily by small currents caused by friction between the goalies' skates and the goal posts.

What it all comes down to is that magnetic fields are the products of currents. If there's no current, there's no magnetic field. It would be really hard to get current in a rubber puck.

I actually never even gave that any thought.........but that is a very good point

 

[IPostedWhat]

Then you have to look at what happens if the puck is on it's side or how do you get a system that registers a goal when the whole puck crosses the line, not just some of it.

Then what happens if you have a glitch in the system, or the chip malfunctions, or is damaged by a slapshot?

Too many variables to spend the money on testing it for a League that is already trying to make money in the US the best they can.

Besides, how many times is this really an issue during the regular season that will have the NHL willing to take the chance on it?

 

[Darkstone42]

I actually never even gave that any thought.........but that is a very good point

I just finished my course in electric and magnetic fields. I somehow got a B+, but I feel like that's the product of the curve. Aside from the basics, I don't think I had any idea what was going on.

What I'm saying is... it was fresh in my mind.

 

[elocomotive]

And what happens when the chip is not planted exactly in the center of the puck? Or what if the chip is slightly at an angle. There's some plays that are so close that it would make a difference.

If it was really so easy to implement this, the NHL would have done it already.The current system is the best we're gonna get. Having a second line would also be a possibility. Even then it wouldn't be perfect. You couldn't disallow goals because they didn't hit the line, but any puck that did reach the line would surely be a goal. It would make a difference on a few goal reviews per year.

I didn't say it was easy, just that it's possible and would definitely cost money.

But no, I highly doubt the current system is the best we're going to get. Throughout history, John Henry tends to lose to the machine.

 

[Darkstone42]

Then you have to look at what happens if the puck is on it's side or how do you get a system that registers a goal when the whole puck crosses the line, not just some of it.

Then what happens if you have a glitch in the system, or the chip malfunctions, or is damaged by a slapshot?

Too many variables to spend the money on testing it for a League that is already trying to make money in the US the best they can.

Besides, how many times is this really an issue during the regular season that will have the NHL willing to take the chance on it?

I think the technology exists. As eloco said, there are position- and angle-determining chips in Wii remotes. It's just a matter of finding a durable material to make them out of, then programming them for the spherical symmetry of the puck. After that, a computer could easily make the calculations.

The question does become how much money would that remaining research require? I know there's already research being done in developing soft chips. (I'm contributing to it, in fact.) Perhaps the NHL should just wait until those are developed and use them.

 

[Darkstone42]

This is a great thread for a Resident Nerd.
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[elocomotive]

I think the technology exists. As eloco said, there are position- and angle-determining chips in Wii remotes. It's just a matter of finding a durable material to make them out of, then programming them for the spherical symmetry of the puck. After that, a computer could easily make the calculations.

The question does become how much money would that remaining research require? I know there's already research being done in developing soft chips. (I'm contributing to it, in fact.) Perhaps the NHL should just wait until those are developed and use them.

Nice! Rep. point for that. (Edit - Says I have to spread it around, but if you need a good patent lawyer, I know a few)

Related to the chip, imagine the stats you could produce with a locator chip. You could flash up shot speed on the jumbotron, get really accurate info. on what speeds shots are most effective for different players. It'd be pretty cool.

 

[Darkstone42]

Nice! Rep. point for that. (Edit - Says I have to spread it around, but if you need a good patent lawyer, I know a few)

Related to the chip, imagine the stats you could produce with a locator chip. You could flash up shot speed on the jumbotron, get really accurate info. on what speeds shots are most effective for different players. It'd be pretty cool.

Determining who scored a goal could be easier, too. The puck changes direction on a deflection, and knowing where it did can tell you who deflected it. There are so many possibilities.

As for my individual research, it's all theoretical, and will only contribute to the ultimate industrial invention. I'm just finding the properties of some of the proposed materials to see if they're feasible.

EDIT: After I get my data, I won't even know how to interpret whether or not the material is feasible. Someone else would have to do that. So I'm kind of distant from the actual invention part.

 

[elocomotive]

Determining who scored a goal could be easier, too. The puck changes direction on a deflection, and knowing where it did can tell you who deflected it. There are so many possibilities.

As for my individual research, it's all theoretical, and will only contribute to the ultimate industrial invention. I'm just finding the properties of some of the proposed materials to see if they're feasible.

EDIT: After I get my data, I won't even know how to interpret whether or not the material is feasible. Someone else would have to do that. So I'm kind of distant from the actual invention part.

Oooo, good point!

Cool stuff nonetheless.

 

[Darkstone42]

Oooo, good point!

Cool stuff nonetheless.

In two posts, your post total will equal the year.

Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[IPostedWhat]

The money the NHL could be spending on an idea like this is tied up in keeping the Coyotes in Phoenix.