21.82

[idseer]

..... nice call williams!

 

[craigk217]

Gotta hang a lot of this steaming pile on Hahn, too, though.

"Now that the smoke's cleared ... updated stats on Shields' four starts: 11.1 IP; 32H; 32R (31 earned); 6K/13BB; .485 opp BA; 24.62 ERA." - Jordan Bastian

At least, with Peavy, you always stood a chance and he usually kept you in games. Shields? Game over before the first pitch is tossed.

The silver lining in any of this, Iddy? Hey, at least we didn't give up Tim Anderson like the Padres wanted ....

 

[idseer]

The silver lining in any of this, Iddy? Hey, at least we didn't give up Tim Anderson like the Padres wanted ....

the only silver lining i see is that maybe ..... MAYBE, reinsdork will begin to understand just how bad his chosen few really are. MAYBE he will begin to question the people who are throwing his money down the drain!

 

[richig07]

the only silver lining i see is that maybe ..... MAYBE, reinsdork will begin to understand just how bad his chosen few really are. MAYBE he will begin to question the people who are throwing his money down the drain!

That... and the obvious. Robin is gone.

In my life, this is the most I've ever been pissed at the White Sox as an organization.

 

[idseer]

That... and the obvious. Robin is gone.

In my life, this is the most I've ever been pissed at the White Sox as an organization.

and as fans we SHOULD be pissed off. reinsdork let this all happen. there are no positives at all with this organization. horrible owner, terrible front office, no manager, bad pitching coach, worthless batting coach, lousy farm system, terrible scouts .... there is nothing good going on with this team. why anyone spends their money on anything white sox is beyond me.

 

[craigk217]

and as fans we SHOULD be pissed off. reinsdork let this all happen. there are no positives at all with this organization. horrible owner, terrible front office, no manager, bad pitching coach, worthless batting coach, lousy farm system, terrible scouts .... there is nothing good going on with this team. why anyone spends their money on anything white sox is beyond me.

Disagree ... Coop is prolly the sole decent thing we have. One of the most respected in the league.

 

[idseer]

Disagree ... Coop is prolly the sole decent thing we have. One of the most respected in the league.

other than hearing this from sox fans and sox announcers i've no reason to think he's very good. he's a few successes and many many failures that somehow never get mentioned.

 

[richig07]

other than hearing this from sox fans and sox announcers i've no reason to think he's very good. he's a few successes and many many failures that somehow never get mentioned.

Well, name a failure...

If he's handed incompetent talent to work with, he can only do so much. A pitching coaches job is to get the best he can out of his players. Sometimes a guy's best is a 5.00 or 6.00 ERA... only so much you can do. A young pitcher who doesn't pan out with one team, and then just never does anywhere else either. I fail to see one particular coach being to blame.

Coop IS respected highly by the league. Zero doubt. I travel for work a lot and regularly have to watch games on the opponents broadcast. Nearly EVERYONE I've heard makes positive mention of Don Cooper.

I think you're just sore at the team, and rightfully so... but Coop is one of the bright spots of this organization.

As for Shields, I mean this has been pretty nuts... and he's only had three starts here. We'll see what he can do with him mechanically.

 

[idseer]

Well, name a failure...

If he's handed incompetent talent to work with, he can only do so much. A pitching coaches job is to get the best he can out of his players. Sometimes a guy's best is a 5.00 or 6.00 ERA... only so much you can do. A young pitcher who doesn't pan out with one team, and then just never does anywhere else either. I fail to see one particular coach being to blame.

Coop IS respected highly by the league. Zero doubt. I travel for work a lot and regularly have to watch games on the opponents broadcast. Nearly EVERYONE I've heard makes positive mention of Don Cooper.

I think you're just sore at the team, and rightfully so... but Coop is one of the bright spots of this organization.

As for Shields, I mean this has been pretty nuts... and he's only had three starts here. We'll see what he can do with him mechanically.

your first sentence is your built in excuse for anyone he failed. so i think it might be a waste of time to name names.

i will only say that if you look at sox pitchers as a whole ... and look at all team's pitchers as a whole you'll find he's not only not exceptional, he's less than ordinary .. and everyone you hear from is no doubt a white sox fan. certainly no more respected by the league or any other team any more than any other team's pitching coach..

and i AM sore at the team, but i have also always felt this way about cooper i could name pitchers he has suggested weren't that good and are trade bait who became VERY good pitchers after they left and i can name pitchers who came to the sox and had their worse seasons before leaving and having success elsewhere. you don't have to look very far.

 

[richig07]

your first sentence is your built in excuse for anyone he failed. so i think it might be a waste of time to name names.

No. I don't think so. There is certainly room for you to bring up an example of a few pitchers who failed here and had success elsewhere.

i will only say that if you look at sox pitchers as a whole ... and look at all team's pitchers as a whole you'll find he's not only not exceptional, he's less than ordinary .. and everyone you hear from is no doubt a white sox fan. certainly no more respected by the league or any other team any more than any other team's pitching coach..

Like I said... Nearly EVERY broadcast of OPPONENTS team's, playing against the White Sox. (Which I have to watch a lot of, on the road for work) mention Cooper in a VERY positive light.

and i AM sore at the team, but i have also always felt this way about cooper i could name pitchers he has suggested weren't that good and are trade bait who became VERY good pitchers after they left and i can name pitchers who came to the sox and had their worse seasons before leaving and having success elsewhere. you don't have to look very far.

Okay, all I did was ask for those examples. I don't doubt you can name some.

 

[idseer]

alright ... just a few examples:

belisario had the worst season of his career with the sox .. by a large margin.
lindstrom, highest era since 2009!
liriano ... one of his worst seasons ever was with the sox. became a star pitcher for the pirates.
jason frasor with a 12 year career had his worst season with the sox right in the middle of his career.
scott schoeneweis ... worst era of his career was with the sox.
scott downs. ... worst year of his career.

more recently, samardzija his era the year before the sox was 2.99. with the sox 4.96. with SF 3.14
duke, who had a 2.45 era with the brewers which turned into 3.41 last year with the sox.
robertson, who with the the sox had his highest era since 2010, worst k ratio since 2011, worst war since 2010 and highest whip since 2010.


of course he had some successes ... but you have to look at his competition too. all coaches have their success stories. a lot has to do with simply the cards you're dealt. for example, i believe cooper didn't do this magical job with buehrle. i think he would have developed into a star on any team.

the only way i know to judge someone like a coach is to compare his successes and failures with his contemporaries. if he's so great ... why are so VERY few of his pitchers among the league leaders in important categories? since he's been the pitching coach the sox have averaged 8th in the 15 team american league in era. 16 years! 3 times in the top 5 (never #1) 10 times 8th or lower. if this were a small sample size i could make room for uncertainty but it's not. in other words, his actual production has been slightly below average. so where does this "reputation" come from?

look rich .... i'm not looking to be argumentative. i am trying this year to be less .... aggressive with you all here. so if you still disagree, that's ok and i won't go on any more about it.

 

[idseer]

Like I said... Nearly EVERY broadcast of OPPONENTS team's, playing against the White Sox. (Which I have to watch a lot of, on the road for work) mention Cooper in a VERY positive light.

but, they all do this with each other. haven't you ever heard our own boob, harrelson, talk glowingly about another team's pitching coach or batting coach or whatever? most announcers do this kind of thing with opposing teams. i hear it all the time where i live too in pirate games and phillie games and mets games. they aren't going to say unkind things about their opponent's staff.
it's just that we tune that stuff out and only hear it when it's about our sox. it's kinda like the blue pontiac syndrome.

 

[craigk217]

Quick google on Best Pitching Coaches found these to chew on ... props to Coop for being up there.

The best pitching coaches in MLB

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/you-and-your-pitching-coaches/

Who are the best coaches in baseball? - The Boston Globe

Edit: And, yes, I know the second article prolly has some bias in it, but still.

 

[idseer]

Quick google on Best Pitching Coaches found these to chew on ... props to Coop for being up there.

The best pitching coaches in MLB

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/you-and-your-pitching-coaches/

Who are the best coaches in baseball? - The Boston Globe

Edit: And, yes, I know the second article prolly has some bias in it, but still.

i think they all have bias in them. he's been around a long time, longer than most pitching coaches. that alone gets him points with bloggers. the first and second article (the same) bases its conclusions on quality starts yet that is only one aspect and it's not all that to begin with. Is Quality Starts a useful stat? (not really) » Baseball-Reference Blog » Blog Archive

here's a site that lists him at #40 best all time. The 50 Best MLB Pitching Coaches of All Time looks good, right? but if you look closely most all these guys had very long careers. when you look at guys who were around for a long time ... there aren't that many to begin with! so how good is it to be #40? not very.

even so, some of the guys ahead of cooper i remember clearly and weren't all that highly thought of at the time. for me, longevity does not indicate quality. for example, mel stottlymyre is #5 (all freaking time!) on the list. but he also had the best pitchers money could buy in new york. this doesn't make him one of the best! these selections are just biased. a writer who sets out to say something but has nothing solid to base his opinions on. same as the ones you listed.

if you want to see an article based on something a little more sound, read this: Baseball Prospectus | Baseball Therapy: What is a Good Pitching Coach Worth?
and this brings me back to what i was trying to say in the first place. how did the team and staff do over the long haul with cooper as a coach? you'll find cooper didn't do all that well.

he had 2005 as the 'jewel' of his career. but look closely. 2005's pitching staff consisted of:

freddy garcia ... who had an good year but why attribute that to cooper? he'd had lots of good years. he had better years with seattle before he came to the sox. and he got progressively worse with the sox!

mark buehrle ... yes, most of his career was under cooper, but did cooper make buehrle? mark himself credits david wells of getting him on track as a young pitcher when wells was on the team. i think mark would have been pretty good no matter who the coach had been

jon garland ... career year in '05. without it he's a career .500 pitcher. if cooper turned him into something great, why did he end up so ordinary?

jose contreras ... again, a career year. a losing pitcher with an overall 4.66 era with the sox.

orlando hernandez ... one year with the sox and it was one of his worst.

relievers:

hermanson ... career year
politte ... career year
cotts ... 2nd best career year - turned to crap in '06 and got good again later with texas.
marte ... his worst year with the sox was in '05
jenks ... got progressively worse with the sox from '05 to '11 when he retired.

notice how many guys had career years in cooper's jewel season? was this due to cooper? if it was, why did they proceed to get worse? much worse? imo '05 was a perfect storm of sox talent. things just came together and no one knows why.

again .... i think if you look at the "team' success and the overall 'pitcher's" success cooper fades into the background as a coach. not terrible, but not special. certainly over-rated!

 

[craigk217]

i think they all have bias in them. he's been around a long time, longer than most pitching coaches. that alone gets him points with bloggers. the first and second article (the same) bases its conclusions on quality starts yet that is only one aspect and it's not all that to begin with. Is Quality Starts a useful stat? (not really) » Baseball-Reference Blog » Blog Archive

here's a site that lists him at #40 best all time. The 50 Best MLB Pitching Coaches of All Time looks good, right? but if you look closely most all these guys had very long careers. when you look at guys who were around for a long time ... there aren't that many to begin with! so how good is it to be #40? not very.

even so, some of the guys ahead of cooper i remember clearly and weren't all that highly thought of at the time. for me, longevity does not indicate quality. for example, mel stottlymyre is #5 (all freaking time!) on the list. but he also had the best pitchers money could buy in new york. this doesn't make him one of the best! these selections are just biased. a writer who sets out to say something but has nothing solid to base his opinions on. same as the ones you listed.

if you want to see an article based on something a little more sound, read this: Baseball Prospectus | Baseball Therapy: What is a Good Pitching Coach Worth?
and this brings me back to what i was trying to say in the first place. how did the team and staff do over the long haul with cooper as a coach? you'll find cooper didn't do all that well.

he had 2005 as the 'jewel' of his career. but look closely. 2005's pitching staff consisted of:

freddy garcia ... who had an good year but why attribute that to cooper? he'd had lots of good years. he had better years with seattle before he came to the sox. and he got progressively worse with the sox!

mark buehrle ... yes, most of his career was under cooper, but did cooper make buehrle? mark himself credits david wells of getting him on track as a young pitcher when wells was on the team. i think mark would have been pretty good no matter who the coach had been

jon garland ... career year in '05. without it he's a career .500 pitcher. if cooper turned him into something great, why did he end up so ordinary?

jose contreras ... again, a career year. a losing pitcher with an overall 4.66 era with the sox.

orlando hernandez ... one year with the sox and it was one of his worst.

relievers:

hermanson ... career year
politte ... career year
cotts ... 2nd best career year - turned to crap in '06 and got good again later with texas.
marte ... his worst year with the sox was in '05
jenks ... got progressively worse with the sox from '05 to '11 when he retired.

notice how many guys had career years in cooper's jewel season? was this due to cooper? if it was, why did they proceed to get worse? much worse? imo '05 was a perfect storm of sox talent. things just came together and no one knows why.

again .... i think if you look at the "team' success and the overall 'pitcher's" success cooper fades into the background as a coach. not terrible, but not special. certainly over-rated!

Dude ... all we were saying is that we agreed with your Turd List of Sox Probs ... just not so much Coop. He seems to be THE one 'item' that isn't so hurrible.

That's all.

 

[idseer]

Dude ... all we were saying is that we agreed with your Turd List of Sox Probs ... just not so much Coop. He seems to be THE one 'item' that isn't so hurrible.

That's all.

ok i agree. "bad pitching coach" may be a little overboard. it's just always irked me that is spoken of in such reverent terms when he's just not all that.

having said that, i still think he's about worn out his welcome and i'd flush him along with everyone else i mentioned.

 

[richig07]

Oh boy am I excited after reading through this post! This is going to be fuuuuun! Welcome to the circus folks! Man, oh man.


i think they all have bias in them.

Of course you do... SHOCKER. Everyone has a bias, apparently... but you... right? So who has the "bias"? I think that it's pretty obvious that you will take the negative side of ANYTHING White Sox. I have been posting on the ESPN boards since 2007, and here since 2012. I honestly DO NOT have a recollection of you having ONE optimistic or positive thing to say.

When something is OBVIOUSLY going well, you either don't comment on it. Or you say... "YEAAAAHHH.... BUUUT.... WE'LL SEE..." You're like that Indians fan in Major League 2, who turned into a sour ass somewhere along the way and just bitches in the stands to the fans trying to enjoy a good moment.

freddy garcia ... who had an good year but why attribute that to cooper?

So why the hell attribute it against him? lol

he'd had lots of good years. he had better years with seattle before he came to the sox. and he got progressively worse with the sox!

Why are you lying, or at the very least just blurting things out? lol... This is how you start this NEVER ENDING LIST? Wow. Not impressive.

Here is Freddy since the moment he was traded to the White Sox...

Year 1: (Traded mid-season) 9-4 4.46 ERA 1.243 WHIP
Year 2: 14-8 3.87 ERA 1.250 WHIP
Year 3: 17-9 4.53 ERA 1.273 WHIP
NEXT 2 YEARS AWAY FROM SOX, both cut short from injuries
(PHI/DET) 2-7 combined ERA's of 5.90 and 4.20
Back to Sox 2009
3-4 4.34 ERA 1.214 WHIP
12-6 4.64 ERA 1.376 WHIP

It's unreal how similar ALL of those seasons are with the White Sox.

Total's with White Sox in all... 55-31 Record 4.33 ERA 1.280 WHIP
Yankees the following two seasons: 19-14 Record 4.30 ERA 1.354 WHIP

Totals in career: 15 years, 7 Teams - 156-108 Record 4.15 ERA 1.303 WHIP

mark buehrle ... yes, most of his career was under cooper, but did cooper make buehrle? mark himself credits david wells of getting him on track as a young pitcher when wells was on the team.

BAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! OH MY... Oh... WHOOWEEE AND MERCY!... That actually made me laugh out loud like a mad man. OF COURSE YOU WOULD! This logic... I tell ya!

Let's find a guy he mentioned that he apparently looked up to in David Wells, for what was it? THE ONE YEAR THAT HE PLAYED HERE AND STUNK! THEN! Oh my god.... wait... wait.... I've got to hold in the laughter folks.... WHEW!... Then, let's attribute ALL of that career success to him.

INSTEAD of the pitching who he came up under and played the vast majority of his career with. Then won over 200 games after learning under, DESPITE being extremely underwhelming from a physically gifted standpoint. Yeah... I am suuuuuuuuure he attributes NOTHING to Cooper, right? He brushes him off?

Oh god folks... That was too good. Talk about dipping and dodging facts and creating a straw man. That's the best I've ever seen, Iddy. Man... OH MAN! This all historically laughable post, thus far. Let's see what else is in store, shall we!?

i think mark would have been pretty good no matter who the coach had been

MY OH MY! What a SHOCKER! BAHAHA... Of course, you do, Iddy! Of course...

jon garland ... career year in '05. without it he's a career .500 pitcher. if cooper turned him into something great, why did he end up so ordinary?

I don't know, Iddy? You know what, fine sir... What do you say!? Let's take a look at his numbers... You're a fine gentleman, and I really do take you at your word most of the time. However, I simply cannot feel comfortable with these vague, blanketed and even... hmm... BIASED statements you seem to be making. SHALL WE! OFF WE GO NOW!

SIDE NOTE: So far you've named three guys who had success under Cooper. Two guys who had their best years, and the other with consistent year-to-year numbers and success most every season. Lol. This is hilarious. Oh my god! I am so awe stricken by this LIST you were yammering about up above.

Career numbers by team for Jon Garland:

White Sox (8 YEARS): 92-81 4.41 ERA 1.368 WHIP (same as Freddy, numbers very steadily consistent with very little, if any fluctuation.)

First year After CWS With LAA: 14-8 4.90 ERA 1.505 WHIP

Finishing in NL for 8 Years for 4 teams: 30-36 4.07 ERA 1.392 WHIP

I think it's safe to say that the only sustained, and consistent success he had anywhere was Chicago. Hands down.

jose contreras ... again, a career year. a losing pitcher with an overall 4.66 era with the sox.

Oh, Iddy! You silly goose! Boy, how you love naming off one vague stat convenient for you and then run off into the distance! What am I going to do with you!? I know! Let's play my little game again! I call it... "Further Examination into an Idea, Without Thinking with our Feelings"... Are we excited? I know I am!

"A losing pitcher for the White Sox"... Oh man. That is so hilarious. 55-56... Let's be vague and just call it that and walk away. Without examining the fact that he only spent his 30's in the US after defecting from Cuba, and ended his career as a starter here. Going 5-13 in his final season, at the end of his rope entirely. Before going to the bullpen in Philly. Let's just forget that little tidbit. HOW CONVENIENT FOR YOU! YOU SILLY GOOSE!

We essentially had him his entire career here as a starter. Outside of his best year(To go along with 05, and also 06 his only all-star season), his MLB rookie year with NYY. Contreras was 33-20 his first three seasons in Chicago. Then hit a wall at age 35, or at least what it said on his birth certificate was 35 ***wink, wink Jose***

The next three seasons here were not very pretty. Is it a coincidence that he hit a wall with his production, when he hit his mid-and-late 30's? Well, no stats can prove that... Must be Coop!

orlando hernandez ... one year with the sox and it was one of his worst.

Yup. The guy had one season here, and it wasn't to good. 5.12 ERA and 9-9 record for a lifetime 4.13 ERA and 90-65 career guy. Short body of work, but you found a man with one season who put up numbers less than he did in his career elsewhere. You KINDA SORTA did it! YAAAAAAYYYYY! That's a win for you in this post! I'll pin on your participation ribbon for you buddy!

relievers:

"marte ... his worst year with the sox was in '05"

lol... Not only is it not true. He also had HIS BEST YEAR HERE! Why skip over that, Iddy? This is a downright BLATANT lie that Iddy expected no one to look into. Only thing I can think.

Damaso Marte Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

2.78 ERA with the Sox in 4 years... Worst was 3.77. Oh gosh, what a nightmare!
3.52 ERA with Pirates in 2.5 years (traded in 08... ERA over 4)
6.02 ERA with the Yankees in 3 years (his appearances did drop, for obvious reasons... but guess where his worst year was?)

cotts ... 2nd best career year - turned to crap in '06 and got good again later with texas.

So... two bad years here. One good... then one bad
Three awful years with the Cubs
One good year with Texas... and one bad
Then one okay year with Milwaukee, than an injured one with Minnesota.

So, two good years, in 10 seasons. One of them in Chicago. That's just odd... but obviously this is on NONE OTHER THAN COOP!

jenks ... got progressively worse with the sox from '05 to '11 when he retired.

And his only real BAD year was his last, along with the end of 06. Where he then bounced back and was an all-star with a 2.77 ERA, a 0.892 WHIP and 40 saves... one shy of a career high. His only REAL bad year was his final in 2010. Then things got worse in Boston. You know what else got worse? His conditioning, and if I remember... his drinking.

hermanson ... career year
politte ... career year

notice how many guys had career years in cooper's jewel season?

Three in Polite, Hermanson and Garland (kind of). A maybe, in Contreras which his first year in NYY can rival, along with an all-star campaign in 06. So a few guys had career years in a World Series season!? OH MY GOSH! No shit! That has NEVER happened! EVER... Lol... NO WAY! In a World Series season! They had their best year!

Hermanson and Politte were also in their 30's after subpar careers and Coop got fantastic seasons out of them before they essentially retired the next season. Hermanson pitching only 8 games, and Polite hitting a wall after virtually his only good season in his career. So it's not like there was much more to go on to. They were finished.

was this due to cooper? if it was, why did they proceed to get worse? much worse? imo '05 was a perfect storm of sox talent. things just came together and no one knows why.

What? lol... Who are all of these guys who got MUCH worse? A couple of relievers?

Hermanson and Polite basically retired the next season. Marte's body of work with both Chicago and in Pittsburgh is very good. Jenks was an all-star the next two years and posted his best numbers in 07. Finished his career with a 3.50 ERA. 05 was the least amount appearances he made in a season in Chicago, at nearly half as much. You basically have one guy in Cotts, who sucked before that season.

Garland had his best season, but his numbers aren't that drastically different from his body of work in Chicago. He went 18-7 the next year, and had a nice career. He didn't suck outside of that year, IN THE LEAST. 4.37 career ERA guy who posted a 3.50 ERA.

A couple of relievers have great years in a year we win the F'ing World Series? And this like your big argument against Coop?

again .... i think if you look at the "team' success and the overall 'pitcher's" success cooper fades into the background as a coach. not terrible, but not special. certainly over-rated!

So this was it? Your big list? You basically just gave us "Orlando Hernandez had his worst career year here... and then Cotts sucked outside of 05."

This was AWFUL... Worse than awful. This was pathetic, and it was also DISHONEST. Totally dishonest. All you did was make vague statements, mentioning one small thing that supported your argument. With no context. Lol... Are we in elementary school here?

In the end, I don't even know what your point was? Also, why did this turn into an 05 WS discussion? I thought this was about Coop. Not naming the 05 pitching staff? Where are all of these pitchers you talked about? That Coop completely failed and then they had great careers?

You can keep babbling this stuff over and over, if it makes you feel any better. I know this is all apart of some weird deep down and engrained condition you have. However, this was an abomination of a post.

 

[richig07]

but, they all do this with each other. haven't you ever heard our own boob, harrelson, talk glowingly about another team's pitching coach or batting coach or whatever? most announcers do this kind of thing with opposing teams. i hear it all the time where i live too in pirate games and phillie games and mets games. they aren't going to say unkind things about their opponent's staff.
it's just that we tune that stuff out and only hear it when it's about our sox. it's kinda like the blue pontiac syndrome.

No. Not really. Not unless they mean it. They don't just pick out every pitching coach and say he's great. I watch a lot of live baseball. I don't hear this a crazy amount, at all... I hear it when it's a guy who is well respected around baseball.

This is just wrong, I am sorry. Again, with the deception from you.

 

[richig07]

of course he had some successes ... but you have to look at his competition too. all coaches have their success stories. a lot has to do with simply the cards you're dealt. for example, i believe cooper didn't do this magical job with buehrle. i think he would have developed into a star on any team.

This is an honest question... I am honestly in disbelief with how delusional you are with this stuff. When I talk about the cards your dealt with young pitchers. You respond by brushing it off and essentially laughing at the statement.

Then, when it's about your opinion... you go ahead and say stuff like that. You use the same logic.

How does that not register in your mind? You attach yourself to an assumption, and then your mind does whatever it is possible to justify it. I read you doing it. You really don't see it though, no matter how blatant... and that's incredible.

 

[idseer]

"""Why are you lying, or at the very least just blurting things out? lol... This is how you start this NEVER ENDING LIST?"""

6 years with seattle ... 3.89 era war 18.9 (avg 3.15)

5 years with chicago ... 4.33 era war 12.6 (avg 2.52)

what i SAID was ""he'd had lots of good years. he had better years with seattle before he came to the sox. and he got progressively worse with the sox!""
and you call me a liar?


"freddy garcia ... who had an good year but why attribute that to cooper? "

"""So why the hell attribute it against him? lol"""

did i attribute it against him? is it my fault you can't understand what you read? NOWHERE did i say anything like that. i'm simply NOT giving him credit for garcia!


and the rest of your 'answer' to my post is filled with the same garbage your first two comments are. and now maybe we begin to see why i get aggressive with a fucking dimwit like you!
if you don't mind ... i'll put you into the same catagory i put the jerk MSGKINGS in. you're both assholes looking for a fight because i don't 'think' they same way you do.
just fucking ignore me and i will fucking ignore you!