Your Top 25 MLB Players of All-Time

[Nosferatu]

I gave them both bumps over their WAR.
You could always join in on the fun with your own list

I will I just had to mention that first...

 

[Nosferatu]

1. Babe Ruth (Anyone who doesn't have Ruth first should stick to watching wrestling)
2. Lou Gehrig
3. Walter Johnson
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Ted Williams
6. Willie Mays
7. Barry Bonds
8. Ty Cobb
9. Tris Speaker
10. Honus Wagner
11. Rogers Hornsby
12. Henry Aaron
13. Stan Musial
15. Mel Ott
16. Christy Mathewson
16. Jimmie Foxx
17. Cy Young
18. Lefty Grove
19. Eddie Collins
20. Grover Cleveland Alexander
21. Mike Schmidt
22. Roger Clemens
23. Randy Johnson
24. Tom Seaver
25. Sandy Koufax


If I thought about it a little longer I might change a few things...

 

[JohnU]

It wasn't really as much a 'bandbox' era as you seem to think however....

In 13 of Spahn's 20 seasons (excluding the year he threw 15 innings), the league ERA was under 4.00, and if you look at Spahn's ERA+ (which compares his ERA to the league average) was 119, meaning his career ERA was 19% better than the average. Greg Maddux by comparison had an ERA+ of 132 and Randy Johnson had one of 135.

My memories are that we used to think any pitcher with an ERA under 4.00 was pretty good. There were few relievers in those days who impacted much so most pitchers did have real ERAs that weren't "park-adjusted." As for Spahn's era, there were a lot of significant hitters -- and the list would reach into the dozens.

I think what we overlook on this era is

a. there were fewer players, and a .240 hitter was usually hitting 8th. MLB is watered down now, badly.
b. pitchers and hitters saw each other 22 times in a season, which is significant. 4-man rotations, so you'd see them all on a weekend series with a DH on Sunday (no 26th man)
c. players played through a lot more pain (relevant? I think so)
d. aforementioned, the relief pitcher was usually a guy who came in to pitch 3 or more innings, so hitters got to know them as well without the "loogy" principle in play.
e. naturally, managers worked on the eyeball test.

I don't know how all this applies specifically to metrics or comparisons, but I continue to assert that comparing players is fun but of marginal value without countering that the game simply was not played the same way.

On the bandbox contention, the ballparks -- Ebbetts, Connie Mack and Crosley were considered bandboxes. Polo Grounds was a nightmare at times (Bobby Thomson, Dusty Rhodes) ... and Wrigley once apparently had a wind machine that strangely disappeared a few years ago. In the AL, old Yankee Stadium was BUILT for a lefty power hitter (Maris, Mantle, some other guy). There are opposite exceptions but there were plenty of places for hitters to yank balls out of the park. Of course, fielders played shallower in some places, so there's that premise that applies today to such places as Coors Field.

Spahn is magical because he pitched literally forever. The odds of anybody going that long without a shoulder or elbow (or some other oblique strain) injury are next to zero. Back then, a "sore arm" ended your career.

 

[Chewbaccer]

1. Babe Ruth (Anyone who doesn't have Ruth first should stick to watching wrestling)
2. Lou Gehrig
3. Walter Johnson
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Ted Williams
6. Willie Mays
7. Barry Bonds
8. Ty Cobb
9. Tris Speaker
10. Honus Wagner
11. Rogers Hornsby
12. Henry Aaron
13. Stan Musial
15. Mel Ott
16. Christy Mathewson
16. Jimmie Foxx
17. Cy Young
18. Lefty Grove
19. Eddie Collins
20. Grover Cleveland Alexander
21. Mike Schmidt
22. Roger Clemens
23. Randy Johnson
24. Tom Seaver
25. Sandy Koufax


If I thought about it a little longer I might change a few things...

Really? No Greg Maddux, but Sandy Koufax and 4 dead ball era pitchers make the cut?

 

[Nosferatu]

Really? No Greg Maddux, but Sandy Koufax and 4 dead ball era pitchers make the cut?

Yeah, the title of the thread is "Your" top 25, meaning my 25. I like Maddux quite a bit and if I did it again he might be somewhere in that 20 - 25 range.

 

[Liberal Icon]

Yeah, the title of the thread is "Your" top 25, meaning my 25. I like Maddux quite a bit and if I did it again he might be somewhere in that 20 - 25 range.

Think of it a little bit longer and put Barry Bonds where he belongs if you go on assumption that objectively and knowing every era with its own limitations Barry belongs right at the top.

 

[Nosferatu]

Think of it a little bit longer and put Barry Bonds where he belongs if you go on assumption that objectively and knowing every era with its own limitations Barry belongs right at the top.

I'll keep that in mind for next time Giants fan... Thank you...

 

[Liberal Icon]

I'll keep that in mind for next time Giants fan... Thank you...

Thank you, Noseferatu considering I am speaking more as a baseball fan rather than a Giants fan. People denigrate Bonds because of steroids but I always point out how amusing it gets when people who know that the guy had unbridled talent steroids, or no steroids. especially where the effects of steroids in a sport such as MLB is in dispute:
More Juice, Less Punch. "More Juice less Punch" was written by two highly respected Professors, Professors Jonathan R. Cole (sociology, Columbia) and Stephen M. Stigler (statistics, University of Chicago).
Or if we go for scientific treatment and analysis instead of the emotional depending on your team then we can look here:
The Juiced Baseball

 

[Nosferatu]

Thank you, Noseferatu considering I am speaking more as a baseball fan rather than a Giants fan. People denigrate Bonds because of steroids but I always point out how amusing it gets when people who know that the guy had unbridled talent steroids, or no steroids. especially where the effects of steroids in a sport such as MLB is in dispute:
More Juice, Less Punch. "More Juice less Punch" was written by two highly respected Professors, Professors Jonathan R. Cole (sociology, Columbia) and Stephen M. Stigler (statistics, University of Chicago).
Or if we go for scientific treatment and analysis instead of the emotional depending on your team then we can look here:
The Juiced Baseball

Barry Bonds was my favorite player in the league prior to the juice, even over Puckett and there is no sports team on the planet I love more than the Twins. I don't knock Bonds off the list for the Juice but 'm not going to reward him for it, no chance in hell he passes Aaron without the juice and he's still one of the greatest all around talents that has ever played but no fucking way does he belong at #1.

 

[Liberal Icon]

Barry Bonds was my favorite player in the league prior to the juice, even over Puckett and there is no sports team on the planet I love more than the Twins. I don't knock Bonds off the list for the Juice but 'm not going to reward him for it, no chance in hell he passes Aaron without the juice and he's still one of the greatest all around talents that has ever played but no fucking way does he belong at #1.

Hmmmm. He was your favorite player, until the juice? I gave you two highly researched articles on the subject of juice but you could not care a hoot about any facts regarding the emotional topic enough for you to read them.
Do you know this?
In 1919, Babe Ruth hit 29 home runs (140 games) to break Ned Williamson's 36 year old record of 27 home runs in 1884 with 114 game schedule. In the next year 1920 they expanded the game schedule to 154 from 140 and Ruth hit 54 home runs. Ruth was not only helped by an expanded schedule but also change in baseball. The Coefficient of Restitution (COR) was increased in 1920 helping the ball bounce off the bat in higher velocity. He set his historic mark of 60 in 1927. Does anybody in his right mind believe if the game schedule had stayed at 118 and COR not increased we would have seen the records by Ruth? Every era has its own limitations.
And by the way have you heard that Aaron you hold over Barry took "greenies?" Do you think effect of greenies (amphetamins) are less than steroids? Read the articles I gave you.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Look dumb fucks, Johnson was a great pitcher. He also pitched most of his career when the MLB leading HR hitter had 14 or so. He never had a top season once power came into the game. His ERA after 1919 was around 3.35.

Dumb Fucks? When it comes to baseball, you're kidding yourself Chief. You're clueless as they come

 

[Nosferatu]

Hmmmm. He was your favorite player, until the juice? I gave you two highly researched articles on the subject of juice but you could not care a hoot about any facts regarding the emotional topic enough for you to read them.
Do you know this?
In 1919, Babe Ruth hit 29 home runs (140 games) to break Ned Williamson's 36 year old record of 27 home runs in 1884 with 114 game schedule. In the next year 1920 they expanded the game schedule to 154 from 140 and Ruth hit 54 home runs. Ruth was not only helped by an expanded schedule but also change in baseball. The Coefficient of Restitution (COR) was increased in 1920 helping the ball bounce off the bat in higher velocity. He set his historic mark of 60 in 1927. Does anybody in his right mind believe if the game schedule had stayed at 118 and COR not increased we would have seen the records by Ruth? Every era has its own limitations.
And by the way have you heard that Aaron you hold over Barry took "greenies?" Do you think effect of greenies (amphetamins) are less than steroids? Read the articles I gave you.

You are right I don't care a hoot. Not sure your point about Ruth he was a pitcher who became a hitter and started blasting home runs at age 24. Barry Bonds was an already excellent player who over the first 14 years of his career hit 40+ three times, he sees the attention McGwire and Sosa get during their historic run and bam he hits the most home runs he has ever had at age 35 then in the year he turns 37 he hits 73 home runs, let me say that again in the season in which he turned 37 he hits 73 home runs and all of a sudden he hits 45+ five years in a row in his late 30's something he had done once in his first 14 seasons.

Look, I get it you're a Giants fan trying to disguise yourself as a baseball fan first and as I said I don't completely disregard Bonds, his records will always have an * for me as they should for every real fan of the game.

I don't hold Aaron over anything, I used his name simply to point out Bonds would not have passed him if not for the juice. Babe Ruth is the home run king and always will be!

 

[Shanemansj13]

Grove has the best ratio between his career ERA and the average league ERA of his contemporaries and the best winning percentage of all 300 game winnings.
Johnson threw hard, advantage Grove.

Wins is the most meaningless stat ever, it really shows how much you know lol

 

[Shanemansj13]

Good points, but Maddux has almost as many wins as Spahn.
Projecting forward it's hard to find another potential 300 game winner in a stage of his career to expect him to get there.
There are some truly great young starters now, but they'll have to stay healthy and pitching at all star level for many more years to even sniff 300.
Right now 300 is the accepted measure of greatness, stay tuned.

And still keeps talking about more wins

 

[Shanemansj13]

Really? No Greg Maddux, but Sandy Koufax and 4 dead ball era pitchers make the cut?

Of all-time pichers I would put Maddux right inside the top 10, around 8-10.

 

[Chewbaccer]

Of all-time pichers I would put Maddux right inside the top 10, around 8-10.

If it's just pitchers, I put him at number 2 right behind Roger Clemens.

Dead ball era pitchers vs steroid era pitchers....

I'll take the steroid era pitchers every time.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Dumb Fucks? When it comes to baseball, you're kidding yourself Chief. You're clueless as they come

He is clueless when it comes to basketball too Maybe he shoud talk football and make it the triple whammy

 

[UK Cowboy]

He is clueless when it comes to basketball too Maybe he shoud talk football and make it the triple whammy

Yeah, Koufax was overrated...just like MJ, Montana, Gretzky, Ali....

 

[Clayton]

Gretzky is more like Ruth than someone like Koufax.

I think I'm underrating Hank Aaron. He has far and away the most total bases of any mlb player and that's a valuable stat imo.

 

[Voltaire26]

Of all-time pichers I would put Maddux right inside the top 10, around 8-10.

If it's just pitchers, I put him at number 2 right behind Roger Clemens.

Dead ball era pitchers vs steroid era pitchers....

I'll take the steroid era pitchers every time.

I left Maddux off my list, but he could have easily been on there (some tough choices). Great and Durable Pitcher.