Even Kiem doesnt think he is a OT

[skinsdad62]

I tried briefly looking for the quote, but didn't care to find it. If you don't believe it, that's fine. Your view that on Scherff and his role as an OG still stands as a Raider-like view. And no, pundits aren't soothsayers. But when nearly all those pundits agree with me and disagree with you, that ought to tell you something. Some of these are well-established and respected commentators like John Keim. Even shark stated that Scherff needs to improve his footwork and pass pro. If that's not a reason that disqualifies him from being taken at #5, I'm not sure what it is. But you and shark would be willing to take an o-lineman with that glaring of a defect in his game with a top five pick. If that doesn't sound dumb to you, I'm not sure what would. If you take Scherff at #5, you expect him to go out and start on Day One. He can't be learning on the job on how to hone his pass pro skills. We already got enough flawed lineman that fit that description.

how do you know that was the raider point of view ? you cant find any quotes on it ? drafting an o/lineman wasnt a typical davis move at all

all the pundits thought hitler was no threat and only a few did that ought to tell you something

footwork can be taught if needs be

but you want fowler who has glaring holes in his game namely one pass rush move and an avg at best 1st step and you want him ?

i understand you are a follow the crowd type guy , you stick your finger in the air determine the mood of the crowd and take that groups opinion as gospel

shark and i are not , we research , we get all the facts from all points of view and we determine what we think , not be led there by some "expert " mindlessly

 

[redskinsfan]

how do you know that was the raider point of view ? you cant find any quotes on it ? drafting an o/lineman wasnt a typical davis move at all

all the pundits thought hitler was no threat and only a few did that ought to tell you something

footwork can be taught if needs be

but you want fowler who has glaring holes in his game namely one pass rush move and an avg at best 1st step and you want him ?

i understand you are a follow the crowd type guy , you stick your finger in the air determine the mood of the crowd and take that groups opinion as gospel

shark and i are not , we research , we get all the facts from all points of view and we determine what we think , not be led there by some "expert " mindlessly

Stop with argumentem ad Hitlerem! Please.

Footwork can be taught, but sometimes it's something an o-lineman will never learn. But, more fundamentally, Scherff's pass pro shortcomings are the product of a lack of athleticism. That's really an issue since that can't be taught.

And I'm NOT a follow the crowd guy. I'll admit that I don't watch the games, but I gather a group of pundits who I believe I can trust and try to see if there's a consensus among them. For Scherff, I didn't need to do that since nearly all of them came to a nearly identical opinion on Scherff. And while neither you, shark, I or anyone on this board are skilled at college scouting, even shark admitted Scherff needs work at pass pro. While I'm not saying we shouldn't be looking at him with a later pick, the fact that he's got pass pro issues clearly warrants passing on him at #5.

 

[skinsdad62]

Stop with argumentem ad Hitlerem! Please.

Footwork can be taught, but sometimes it's something an o-lineman will never learn. But, more fundamentally, Scherff's pass pro shortcomings are the product of a lack of athleticism. That's really an issue since that can't be taught.

And I'm NOT a follow the crowd guy. I'll admit that I don't watch the games, but I gather a group of pundits who I believe I can trust and try to see if there's a consensus among them. For Scherff, I didn't need to do that since nearly all of them came to a nearly identical opinion on Scherff. And while neither you, shark, I or anyone on this board are skilled at college scouting, even shark admitted Scherff needs work at pass pro. While I'm not saying we shouldn't be looking at him with a later pick, the fact that he's got pass pro issues clearly warrants passing on him at #5.

again you tried to pass off what davis said as FACT when in fact he never said anything remotely close to that . hence i asked you to find a quote which i knew you couldnt and you pass off as not wanting too

you want me to change my mind then you had better bring facts to the table and not some fantasy crap speculation pretending to be fact

the fact is they thought he was the best LT on the board and picked him and they missed . they didnt move him to OG until he failed and even at OG he failed the packers did the same with mandarich and SM did when he drafted kentwan balmer and alex smith

you want to debate people who have watched the games , have watched the tapes themselves and then say you are more informed then us poppycock . i am just as informed as the pundits and i can still be way off and wrong

scherf is said to be more athletic then martin is and that is why they like him at OG . they believe he will be an all -pro there , fine i get that but an more athletic martin should be able to play RT easily and competently

if you want to talk about anti- vaxers then i can talk about hitler the crowd isnt always right . the experts , the pundits all thought bill clinton couldnt win the presidency ,he did

 

[redskinsfan]

again you tried to pass off what davis said as FACT when in fact he never said anything remotely close to that . hence i asked you to find a quote which i knew you couldnt and you pass off as not wanting too

you want me to change my mind then you had better bring facts to the table and not some fantasy crap speculation pretending to be fact

the fact is they thought he was the best LT on the board and picked him and they missed . they didnt move him to OG until he failed and even at OG he failed the packers did the same with mandarich and SM did when he drafted kentwan balmer and alex smith

you want to debate people who have watched the games , have watched the tapes themselves and then say you are more informed then us poppycock . i am just as informed as the pundits and i can still be way off and wrong

scherf is said to be more athletic then martin is and that is why they like him at OG . they believe he will be an all -pro there , fine i get that but an more athletic martin should be able to play RT easily and competently

if you want to talk about anti- vaxers then i can talk about hitler the crowd isnt always right . the experts , the pundits all thought bill clinton couldnt win the presidency ,he did

First of all, I'm not going to waste my time sifting through the internet for something that occurred more than a decade ago. Apart from whether I can locate it or not, the substance of the quote is more than enough to convey my point, which is that saying he turned out to be a good OG is nonsense when you wasted a second overall pick on him and passed up people like a franchise QB in Philip Rivers and DT like Vince Wilfork.

In addition, while I acknowledge some so-called pundits are idiots, others aren't. And don't tell me that any opinion offered by me, you or anyone else on this board is close to being what theirs is. It's kind of like saying I can look at a x-ray and form an opinion of what is or isn't wrong with RGIII's knee. If any one of us can truly offer up college scouting insight, they'd be making millions for teams desperate for that type of clairvoyance.

 

[skinsdad62]

First of all, I'm not going to waste my time sifting through the internet for something that occurred more than a decade ago. Apart from whether I can locate it or not, the substance of the quote is more than enough to convey my point, which is that saying he turned out to be a good OG is nonsense when you wasted a second overall pick on him and passed up people like a franchise QB in Philip Rivers and DT like Vince Wilfork.

In addition, while I acknowledge some so-called pundits are idiots, others aren't. And don't tell me that any opinion offered by me, you or anyone else on this board is close to being what theirs is. It's kind of like saying I can look at a x-ray and form an opinion of what is or isn't wrong with RGIII's knee. If any one of us can truly offer up college scouting insight, they'd be making millions for teams desperate for that type of clairvoyance.

the substance of your quote means nothing if he didnt say it or even imply it / its made up BS

well we arent talking about surgery we are talking about football and what it takes to play a position or not and whether i know what it takes or not (which i do )

but hey i was working in the pilgrim nuclear plant when my father in law was supposedly having congestive heart failure

i drove back took a look at his records and the computer charts and found out he was on all the medications he wasnt supposed to have because of reactions to them . good thing i didnt take the experts opinion even though i am not a DR ,. he would be dead because the "expert " had predetermined a course of treatment without rechecking the facts . he would have died if i hadnt stepped in

so i didnt look at an x ray and determined whats wrong with Rg3 's knee which would be stupid because you would need an MRI as well

lesson learned ? i do my own research and take in all the information in then form my opinion i dont rely soley on pundits with agendas and experts who predetermine outcomes based on a position they want to sell and call it gospel . most people do that

most pundits havent researched everything and take what someone else says and call it their own

 

[redskinsfan]

the substance of your quote means nothing if he didnt say it or even imply it / its made up BS

well we arent talking about surgery we are talking about football and what it takes to play a position or not and whether i know what it takes or not (which i do )

but hey i was working in the pilgrim nuclear plant when my father in law was supposedly having congestive heart failure

i drove back took a look at his records and the computer charts and found out he was on all the medications he wasnt supposed to have because of reactions to them . good thing i didnt take the experts opinion even though i am not a DR ,. he would be dead because the "expert " had predetermined a course of treatment without rechecking the facts . he would have died if i hadnt stepped in

so i didnt look at an x ray and determined whats wrong with Rg3 's knee which would be stupid because you would need an MRI as well

lesson learned ? i do my own research and take in all the information in then form my opinion i dont rely soley on pundits with agendas and experts who predetermine outcomes based on a position they want to sell and call it gospel . most people do that

most pundits havent researched everything and take what someone else says and call it their own

Well I'm glad things turned out well for your father in law but you've got to be kidding if you think this is anything more than an isolated anomaly. Are you really saying you analyze medical records on par with a cardiologist? If you've really got the college scouting skills you claim to have, why don't you write a guest column for the Post? They solicit offers for articles every day. If you really have that skillset someone may ask how you've done in the past or how you'd stack up against someone like McCloughan? I really don't think you want to go down that path.

And I'll tell you where I heard that quote. It was from a local sports talk show here in LA mocking Davis for that statement. But let's assume I completely made it up. The substance I'm trying to deliver still stands, and that's the fact that it's foolish to take a guard that high especially when you pass on other franchise players in the process.

 

[skinsdad62]

Well I'm glad things turned out well for your father in law but you've got to be kidding if you think this is anything more than an isolated anomaly. Are you really saying you analyze medical records on par with a cardiologist? If you've really got the college scouting skills you claim to have, why don't you write a guest column for the Post? They solicit offers for articles every day. If you really have that skillset someone may ask how you've done in the past or how you'd stack up against someone like McCloughan? I really don't think you want to go down that path.

And I'll tell you where I heard that quote. It was from a local sports talk show here in LA mocking Davis for that statement. But let's assume I completely made it up. The substance I'm trying to deliver still stands, and that's the fact that it's foolish to take a guard that high especially when you pass on other franchise players in the process.

well then its on record if he said it and hence you can find it hence its crap until its produced

really ? you are going there ? no i cant analyze records better then most dr.s however we are talking about a sport and knowing what something should look like .

as for the old "why dont you do this " blah blah blah " i can hold my own vs a beat reporter and in time with a scout if i devoted my time and resources to it and anyone can post articles on WAPO . the free lance star had a skins beat reporter working for them and i was good if not better informed then he was . i grew up with him went to school with him and he got some of his facts from me

now i am not GM material

however then i would be taking a pay cut from my profession to do this , my free time wouldnt be nearly as much and hence i mess around on twitter and skins boards

and if you are going to call fowler , or beasley a "franchise guy " at this point you are reaching

 

[redskinsfan]

well then its on record if he said it and hence you can find it hence its crap until its produced

really ? you are going there ? no i cant analyze records better then most dr.s however we are talking about a sport and knowing what something should look like .

as for the old "why dont you do this " blah blah blah " i can hold my own vs a beat reporter and in time with a scout if i devoted my time and resources to it and anyone can post articles on WAPO . the free lance star had a skins beat reporter working for them and i was good if not better informed then he was . i grew up with him went to school with him and he got some of his facts from me

now i am not GM material

however then i would be taking a pay cut from my profession to do this , my free time wouldnt be nearly as much and hence i mess around on twitter and skins boards

and if you are going to call fowler , or beasley a "franchise guy " at this point you are reaching

One more time. Irrespective of whether he did or didn't say it, the point about taking a guard that high and, in the process, missing out on others is the point. I'm not sure what else to say about that. I can at least make this statement: drafting Gallery at #2 and putting him at OG is exactly what Davis did (as opposed to said). In view of that, I can still aver that you're another Al Davis in terms of action (as opposed to spoken word). What Davis also did was to pass up on Rivers, Big Ben and Wilfork. That's exactly what you'll be doing if you take Scherff as an OG.

I doubt anyone can hold his or her own against a beat reporter in DC. Do you really think you're better than Keim? Bullock? Bucky Brooks? Charles Davis? And you basically answered your own question by conceding that you don't have the time to devote to college scouting. That's one of two important things in becoming a respected college scout: (1) time and resources you spend at your craft and (2) the intelligence and know-how to do it. No one here has both, including you. Essentially, you've contradicted your own point, in particular as to the first of those two points.

 

[skinsdad62]

One more time. Irrespective of whether he did or didn't say it, the point about taking a guard that high and, in the process, missing out on others is the point. I'm not sure what else to say about that. I can at least make this statement: drafting Gallery at #2 and putting him at OG is exactly what Davis did (as opposed to said). In view of that, I can still aver that you're another Al Davis in terms of action (as opposed to spoken word). What Davis also did was to pass up on Rivers, Big Ben and Wilfork. That's exactly what you'll be doing if you take Scherff as an OG.

I doubt anyone can hold his or her own against a beat reporter in DC. Do you really think you're better than Keim? Bullock? Bucky Brooks? Charles Davis? And you basically answered your own question by conceding that you don't have the time to devote to college scouting. That's one of two important things in becoming a respected college scout: (1) time and resources you spend at your craft and (2) the intelligence and know-how to do it. No one here has both, including you. Essentially, you've contradicted your own point, in particular as to the first of those two points.

answer yes and i could find time if that was my profession of choice . i choose not too i would have to give up more then i want too and i do hold my own vs them everyday on twitter and some of them have tweeted me as such

next issue

 

[redskinsfan]

answer yes and i could find time if that was my profession of choice . i choose not too i would have to give up more then i want too and i do hold my own vs them everyday on twitter and some of them have tweeted me as such

next issue

I'm not going to address the "what if" part of your statement; it's clear that because you (or anyone else here) doesn't have the time to address college scouting, none of us can compare to other (respected) draft pundits and analysts.

 

[skinsdad62]

I'm not going to address the "what if" part of your statement; it's clear that because you (or anyone else here) doesn't have the time to address college scouting, none of us can compare to other (respected) draft pundits and analysts.

well you asked me the GD what if ? i didnt bring it up you did

 

[redskinsfan]

well you asked me the GD what if ? i didnt bring it up you did

No, I asked you if you were that good, you should be doing it for a living and/or writing articles for the Post. Big difference.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I'm not going to address the "what if" part of your statement; it's clear that because you (or anyone else here) doesn't have the time to address college scouting, none of us can compare to other (respected) draft pundits and analysts.

Exactly. We all share opinions, as I said that is what a message board is for. But for a poster who does not scout college full time to proclaim that he knows more than people who do in fact scout college football for a living is downright laughable. Pissing matches on Twitter proves nothing regarding the ability to analyze draft picks.

Regarding Al Davis not being a guy to draft OL as Dad proclaims I remember reading Madden's book as a kid and they both agreed the 2 most important position was corner back and OL. So I went back and did a quick check, starting the year before he went bat shit crazy (2006) and went back 10 years. In those 10 drafts here is the breakdown of offensive lineman drafted by Al:

First round: 3
Second round: 2
Third round: 3
4th round: 1
6th round: 2
7th round: 1

So that's 8 picks in the first 3 rounds in 10 drafts including 3 number 1's. So obviously he did in fact put a priority on drafting offensive lineman.

Oakland Raiders | Draft History

 

[skinsdad62]

Exactly. We all share opinions, as I said that is what a message board is for. But for a poster who does not scout college full time to proclaim that he knows more than people who do in fact scout college football for a living is downright laughable. Pissing matches on Twitter proves nothing regarding the ability to analyze draft picks.

Regarding Al Davis not being a guy to draft OL as Dad proclaims I remember reading Madden's book as a kid and they both agreed the 2 most important position was corner back and OL. So I went back and did a quick check, starting the year before he went bat shit crazy (2006) and went back 10 years. In those 10 drafts here is the breakdown of offensive lineman drafted by Al:

First round: 3
Second round: 2
Third round: 3
4th round: 1
6th round: 2
7th round: 1

So that's 8 picks in the first 3 rounds in 10 drafts including 3 number 1's. So obviously he did in fact put a priority on drafting offensive lineman.

Oakland Raiders | Draft History

saying one held his own vs a beat reporter isnt saying anyone knows more . it says i can refute a position intelligently it is what it is

i didnt get into a twitter pissing contest with anyone and again the guys i talked with said i held my own, there words not mine

3rd al davis was associated with the raiders for for 58 years and he drafted 3 1st round o/lineman trendsetting

 

[Sharkinva]

Exactly. We all share opinions, as I said that is what a message board is for. But for a poster who does not scout college full time to proclaim that he knows more than people who do in fact scout college football for a living is downright laughable. Pissing matches on Twitter proves nothing regarding the ability to analyze draft picks.

Regarding Al Davis not being a guy to draft OL as Dad proclaims I remember reading Madden's book as a kid and they both agreed the 2 most important position was corner back and OL. So I went back and did a quick check, starting the year before he went bat shit crazy (2006) and went back 10 years. In those 10 drafts here is the breakdown of offensive lineman drafted by Al:

First round: 3
Second round: 2
Third round: 3
4th round: 1
6th round: 2
7th round: 1

So that's 8 picks in the first 3 rounds in 10 drafts including 3 number 1's. So obviously he did in fact put a priority on drafting offensive lineman.

Oakland Raiders | Draft History

IM just going to throw it out there like this.

Keim, McShay, Kiper and who ever else you want to name, while this is their full time job, they are scouting literally thousands of college players every year not only for coming draft, but two or three years down the road. SO you dont think its at all possible that one or two form an opinion, and pass it along which others in the profession pick up on and start to take as gospel??

On the flip side, most "FANS" tend to concentrate on a pool of no more than say 40-60 players.. and these are the fanatical types. For your average fan, whos team is picking in the top 20, they are going to look at research and compare MAYBE 30 players top. Rule out the players at a position there team likely has no interest or NEED in. And form their opinion of those players based on that. Its why I dont offer any opinion on the top two WR's because to be honest I consider them a luxury pick for the Skins, and while possible I dont consider them Probable picks for us at #5. Since its really going to come down to OLB, DL or OL.. thats where I spent my time looking. Now if I really wanted to look at recorded games of White or Cooper... I have a Genie full of 2014 college games. Its also why I dont even begin to hedge a guess at what we will take in round two, because there is no clear indication of what will be on the board and what will be prudent to pick. Cant speak for Skindad, but I know that generally after round 1 ends, I spend the night looking at whats left on the board and looking up players I think we might consider taking, same thing for the 3rd round. Yea, Im a geek and I actually have taken the 30th and the 1st off so as not to have work interfere with the draft.

But to say that because MOST fans dont have the time or energy or know how to render a competent assessment of players their team may in fact draft, does not mean that all fans cant or wont spend the time to do such.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

saying one held his own vs a beat reporter isnt saying anyone knows more . it says i can refute a position intelligently it is what it is

i didnt get into a twitter pissing contest with anyone and again the guys i talked with said i held my own, there words not mine

3rd al davis was associated with the raiders for for 58 years and he drafted 3 1st round o/lineman trendsetting

I'm not going back to all 58 years to satisfy you. I picked a pretty good sampling from the 10 years before he started losing it. And no it was not 3 first in 58 years, it was 3 in 10 years.

Regarding your claims you have most certainly proclaimed to knowing more than the "experts" and "pundits", you've been saying that for a month. Sorry, hearing you say some random reporter told you the you "held your own" is hardly proof of anything. We only have your posts to go on and again you are saying the exact opposite of all the people who do this for a living, then you beat your chest and claim you know more than they do. Come on man, you are entitled to your opinion but when it is contrary to everyone else you need to be prepared for others to call you on it.

He's probably not a tackle. Can you at least admit that?

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

IM just going to throw it out there like this.

Keim, McShay, Kiper and who ever else you want to name, while this is their full time job, they are scouting literally thousands of college players every year not only for coming draft, but two or three years down the road. SO you dont think its at all possible that one or two form an opinion, and pass it along which others in the profession pick up on and start to take as gospel??

On the flip side, most "FANS" tend to concentrate on a pool of no more than say 40-60 players.. and these are the fanatical types. For your average fan, whos team is picking in the top 20, they are going to look at research and compare MAYBE 30 players top. Rule out the players at a position there team likely has no interest or NEED in. And form their opinion of those players based on that. Its why I dont offer any opinion on the top two WR's because to be honest I consider them a luxury pick for the Skins, and while possible I dont consider them Probable picks for us at #5. Since its really going to come down to OLB, DL or OL.. thats where I spent my time looking. Now if I really wanted to look at recorded games of White or Cooper... I have a Genie full of 2014 college games. Its also why I dont even begin to hedge a guess at what we will take in round two, because there is no clear indication of what will be on the board and what will be prudent to pick. Cant speak for Skindad, but I know that generally after round 1 ends, I spend the night looking at whats left on the board and looking up players I think we might consider taking, same thing for the 3rd round. Yea, Im a geek and I actually have taken the 30th and the 1st off so as not to have work interfere with the draft.

But to say that because MOST fans dont have the time or energy or know how to render a competent assessment of players their team may in fact draft, does not mean that all fans cant or wont spend the time to do such.

How about the hard core Iowa fan who concentrated on 22 players all season. Did his words carry no weight at all? He most clearly said Scherff is a guard who struggles in pass pro.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Exactly. We all share opinions, as I said that is what a message board is for. But for a poster who does not scout college full time to proclaim that he knows more than people who do in fact scout college football for a living is downright laughable. Pissing matches on Twitter proves nothing regarding the ability to analyze draft picks.

Regarding Al Davis not being a guy to draft OL as Dad proclaims I remember reading Madden's book as a kid and they both agreed the 2 most important position was corner back and OL. So I went back and did a quick check, starting the year before he went bat shit crazy (2006) and went back 10 years. In those 10 drafts here is the breakdown of offensive lineman drafted by Al:

First round: 3
Second round: 2
Third round: 3
4th round: 1
6th round: 2
7th round: 1

So that's 8 picks in the first 3 rounds in 10 drafts including 3 number 1's. So obviously he did in fact put a priority on drafting offensive lineman.

Oakland Raiders | Draft History

A quick scan over their history show a ton more top picks used on the OL over the years. You best quit while you're behind on this one Dad.

 

[Sharkinva]

How about the hard core Iowa fan who concentrated on 22 players all season. Did his words carry no weight at all? He most clearly said Scherff is a guard who struggles in pass pro.

Sure it carries weight. But I also take something that you all seem to want to dismiss.

1. BEST Offensive lineman in the draft
2. Last time I checked we actually needed a guard
3. I would rather a 7-10 year starter at Guard that grades out by most to likely be one of the best at his craft over a situation pass rusher.

4. Im not hung up on the Oh my god you cant draft "this position" that high in the draft because Im more concerned with over all team effect than I am with Kiper grading our draft a success or how often a guy is going to be on sports center.

 

[skinsdad62]

well this has played out about as far as it can go . DGF has no idea that i have actually talked with kiem and bulluck about their views and what they said to me . he dismisses that as he does with any evidence provided to him or others

my opinion is as good as any pundit you want to name period end of story i stand by that totally .

so for me this conversation is over . i will try to avoid anymore responses to this or any other threads dealing with this

we will have to agree to disagree on this