I can make a team today to beat the 1992 Dream Team

[pittpnthrs]

And yet the best team in the league, perhaps the greatest team of all time, completely disagrees with you.

Because nobody has players that are capable of doing it anymore. The center position has been weak for years.

Also, the Warriors have a long, long way to go before anybody should be claiming them as the greatest team ever.

 

[flyerhawk]

Again, tell that to Joel Embid.

Joel Embiid has more 3 point attempts in 1 and half seasons than Patrick Ewing had in his 15 year career. In fact he has almost as many 3 point attempts as Patrick Ewing and Hakeem Olajuwan COMBINED in their careers.

 

[flyerhawk]

Because nobody has players that are capable of doing it anymore. The center position has been weak for years.

There is a reason for it. The league rewards length and athleticism and not post players.

Also, the Warriors have a long, long way to go before anybody should be claiming them as the greatest team ever.

OK I guess.

 

[Across The Field]

If you are going to use a word like "staggering" ..than I assuming you have proven facts to support this.
Honestly, you make it sound like guys were smoking as they ran and up down the court back then.

Is it not today's starters who are whining about the NBA schedule and literally sit during games uninjured.
I think of the most iconic, athletic moments in NBA history and it's seems like most of them are back in the day.

If someone wants to say that there is an argument to be made that today's players win out in this regard ..I could see that. But if you say the difference is "staggering" ....I'm expecting to see some close to undisputed proof.



.

Same as I'm interested in seeing something close to undisputed proof that the physicality that 90s players were allowed to get away with would automatically mean this generation's players wouldn't. Because if they are, the 92 DT would be in for a world of hurt.

 

[flyerhawk]

Same as I'm interested in seeing something close to undisputed proof that the physicality that 90s players were allowed to get away with would automatically mean this generation's players wouldn't. Because if they are, the 92 DT would be in for a world of hurt.

The same folks that talk about how much tougher the players were back in the 90s are generally the same ones that accuse Lebron James of being a pussy that would have got his ass kicked back in the 90s.

 

[Across The Field]

The same folks that talk about how much tougher the players were back in the 90s are generally the same ones that accuse Lebron James of being a pussy that would have got his ass kicked back in the 90s.

Yep. The romanticizing of the 92 DT is silly and unfounded.

 

[blstoker]

It's interesting to think that people see to think that the stretch 4 and stretch 5 are inventions of the league only recently. It's not like the Dream Team players didn't face big men who could shoot from outside and stretch the floor. Yes, they didn't shoot as many 3s in 1992 (the league average for attempts for entire teams is less than some players average now), but it isn't like the DT was filled with players who couldn't sink the 3 ball when it was needed.

 

[blstoker]

As for the post up game being a thing of the past - I don't believe that the change in defensive schemes is what made the post presence leave the game. Besides, toss the ball down low to David Robinson on the post, send someone to double to take away his advantage, who do you leave open from 3? Larry Bird (still shot over 40% in 1991-92), John Stockton (over 40% in 1991-92), Chris Mullin (45% in 1992-93)? Or, do you let Jordan, Drexler or Magic cut to the rim for a backdoor pass? How about leave Malone or Barkley alone to receive the pass for an easy 2 around the basket. Or, do you play it strait and let Robinson (or Ewing) completely annihilate your big man in the post? Don't think Robinson could do it? He averaged nearly 4.8 assists a game in 93-94, a total that no current 7 footer has done (the Gasol brothers have been close, but I can't remember seeing them on anyone's team).

 

[blstoker]

Also, could the 7 footers defend away from the basket? Well, when Ewing was 37 and old and decrepit he face Nowitzki twice (I am using because he's an easy big man to come up with who could shoot 3s), holding him to 17 ppg and 43% shooting. Overall, Nowitzki shot 24-64 (6-21 downtown) in 5 games against Ewing teams - and that's when Ewing was 37-39 years old. I would post what Nowitzki did against the Spurs, but they had Duncan entire time Robinson would have faced him - so I can't say that having 2 7 footers wouldn't have helped. I don't think people realize just how much ground that the centers of the past had to cover - especially since they couldn't be in a zone at all and contrary to popular belief - couldn't just camp below the basket.

That said, having someone like Anthony Davis living beyond 3 wouldn't be the end of the world, with his 31% career 3 pt %

 

[flyerhawk]

As for the post up game being a thing of the past - I don't believe that the change in defensive schemes is what made the post presence leave the game. Besides, toss the ball down low to David Robinson on the post, send someone to double to take away his advantage, who do you leave open from 3? Larry Bird (still shot over 40% in 1991-92), John Stockton (over 40% in 1991-92), Chris Mullin (45% in 1992-93)? Or, do you let Jordan, Drexler or Magic cut to the rim for a backdoor pass? How about leave Malone or Barkley alone to receive the pass for an easy 2 around the basket. Or, do you play it strait and let Robinson (or Ewing) completely annihilate your big man in the post? Don't think Robinson could do it? He averaged nearly 4.8 assists a game in 93-94, a total that no current 7 footer has done (the Gasol brothers have been close, but I can't remember seeing them on anyone's team).

Well the DT would definitely have the advantage if they had 7 guys on the court.

 

[flyerhawk]

Also, could the 7 footers defend away from the basket? Well, when Ewing was 37 and old and decrepit he face Nowitzki twice (I am using because he's an easy big man to come up with who could shoot 3s), holding him to 17 ppg and 43% shooting. Overall, Nowitzki shot 24-64 (6-21 downtown) in 5 games against Ewing teams - and that's when Ewing was 37-39 years old. I would post what Nowitzki did against the Spurs, but they had Duncan entire time Robinson would have faced him - so I can't say that having 2 7 footers wouldn't have helped. I don't think people realize just how much ground that the centers of the past had to cover - especially since they couldn't be in a zone at all and contrary to popular belief - couldn't just camp below the basket.

That said, having someone like Anthony Davis living beyond 3 wouldn't be the end of the world, with his 31% career 3 pt %

Centers back in the day certainly didn't just camp under the basket. They had to guard the other center. Who was usually in the paint or around it. They rarely were asked to cover a player on pick and roll switch.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Joel Embiid has more 3 point attempts in 1 and half seasons than Patrick Ewing had in his 15 year career. In fact he has almost as many 3 point attempts as Patrick Ewing and Hakeem Olajuwan COMBINED in their careers.

Yeah he takes his 2 or 3 cute 3 pointers a game, but we both know the bulk of his production is on the blocks.

 

[pittpnthrs]

There is a reason for it. The league rewards length and athleticism and not post players.

Yet when a decent one comes along (Embid), he dominates. Why is that? Its because the NBA is a league filled with forwards playing the center position due to a lack of talent at that position.

i watched the Sixers and Pelicans last time they played just to see how Embid and Davis would play against each other and Embid destroyed him. To big and to talented down low. One can only imagine what Ewing or Robinson would do to him.

-- I'll be honest though and say I have no answer for this question, but did the NBA change due to the lack of talent at the center position, or is the lack of talent at the center position due to the players changing their style? I honestly dont know. --

 

[blstoker]

Centers back in the day certainly didn't just camp under the basket. They had to guard the other center. Who was usually in the paint or around it. They rarely were asked to cover a player on pick and roll switch.

Rarely doesn't mean never, or unable. Jack Sickma, Sam Perkins and Bill Laimbeer are just a few guys who had multiple seasons attempting at least 100 3s while playing center.

Anyway, most of the "centers" being thrown around aren't exactly elite 3pt shooters. Someone threw out Karl Anthony-Townes - who would be a solid threat as a stretch, but no other center seriously considered is better than around 1/3.

Well the DT would definitely have the advantage if they had 7 guys on the court.

I'm sure that you can imagine how any number of combinations could put these players on the court together while still limiting the number to 5.

 

[blstoker]

People have been bandying about which rules would be used for this - and since the Dream Team was put together for the Olympics, why wouldn't this be done using International FIBA rules (though I have no idea how, or if they differ now than from 1992).

 

[R.J. MacReady]

Same as I'm interested in seeing something close to undisputed proof that the physicality that 90s players were allowed to get away with would automatically mean this generation's players wouldn't. Because if they are, the 92 DT would be in for a world of hurt.

That's what I thought.

Nothing but speculation & opinion on both sides.



.

 

[flyerhawk]

-- I'll be honest though and say I have no answer for this question, but did the NBA change due to the lack of talent at the center position, or is the lack of talent at the center position due to the players changing their style? I honestly dont know. --

This is what it boils down to. It isn't reasonable to believe that all of the sudden, despite the talent pool expanding significantly, there are simply fewer big men that can play basketball well.

It is far more likely that the league has changed what it is looking for in a big man. More athleticism and less mass. Length more than height.

 

[flyerhawk]

That's what I thought.

Nothing but speculation & opinion on both sides.



.

Without question this is all speculation.

The one thing we can largely say is true, is that players in better condition today than they were 25 years ago. They train better. They eat better.

 

[trojanfan12]

Why?

KD is every bit as long as the elite centers from the 90s, but he is quicker, faster, more agile and he jumps higher.

Yes, he isn't as strong, but I think you are way underselling KD's abilities compared to 90s rim protectors.

Also, keep in mind that in the 90s there were a lot more contested shot attempts in the paint and defenses were far less spread out, so there were more opportunities for blocks.

Because KD is too light in the ass and it's not something he's been required to do. He's not used to guys attacking the basket the way they did in the DT era.

It doesn't matter how long he is. He's not physically strong enough. Were he to come up in that era, he'd have a much better chance because he would be used to it and would have adjusted his game.

But today's KD, brought up in this era of basketball? He's not scaring anyone. Barkley would be looking to break him in half. lol

 

[trojanfan12]

but did the NBA change due to the lack of talent at the center position, or is the lack of talent at the center position due to the players changing their style? I honestly dont know. --

It's been a change in the way that the game is played. A lot of it has to do with the influence of European bigs like Dirk. The European game has never been as physical as the NBA. When bigs from Europe started playing in the NBA, they weren't as big and strong as the NBA bigs. But they could neutralize some of the advantages of the NBA centers by forcing them to play defense outside the paint.

For example, Shaq vs. Dirk in the paint...advantage Shaq. Shaq's too big and strong. About the only way Dirk stops him is if he can draw an offensive foul.

Shaq vs. Dirk outside the paint...advantage Dirk. Dirks too skilled at ballhandling and shooting. About the only way Shaq can stop him is if Dirk just happens to miss his shot.

American kids saw what guys like Dirk were doing, and let's face it, every big wants to be a guard, so more and more started emulating guys like Dirk.

To me, Embiid is sort of a Shaq/Dirk hybrid. He's not as strong as Shaq was, but he can definitely play with his back to the basket. He's not as skilled a ballhandler and shooter as Dirk was, but he can't be ignored outside the paint. He may very well be the future of the center position, imo.