Game Thread: VS Flames

[smackdown380]

The Kings do remember this is the same Elliott from St. Louis right...

 

[davnlaguna]

Just need to get 3 goals ( more than Calgary) in the third. Easy

 

[Kings4OT]

time ticking away

 

[Kings4OT]

That's a wrap, overall a pathetic game. I think these guys are ready for golf

 

[CroconawKings]

There's always next year. We need to beat Edmonton tomorrow to have a chance!

 

[PuckinUgly57]

Pretty sure the Kings are done for the season. Wouldn't be surprised to see this team tinkered with heavily come summer time.

 

[Stunner_At_Staples_Kings]

Pretty sure the Kings are done for the season. Wouldn't be surprised to see this team tinkered with heavily come summer time.

Full, sweeping changes coming for sure. I'm betting Sutter is gone because we want to get younger and I don't trust Sutter with training young guys. A year off for Kopitar knowing he's the capitan should be good as well. I hope he challenges himself this summer to get back to why LA decided to cave and pay him with the Toews and Kane's of the league. He has finally started scoring though, with 4 in his last 8, so maybe the next 9 years of his Contract won't eat at us so hard (He now has 10 for the year, which is $1mil per goal).

I seriously consider moving Muzzin for a top forward (if possible) because I like the rest of the younger d, and there seems to be league-wide obsession with that guy (Muzzin the analytics darling). I also like that we actually have our first round pick this year, so that's a start as well.

I truly question resigning Toffoli for anything close to or over $6mil/year, because I personally just don't see it. Pavelski and Couture make $6mil/year and I think they are far more effective for their team.

Quick would have probably gotten us into a Playoff spot, but this team's identity needs to be re-created in the coming year/years. I would even consider taking next year to retool as well. Create a new window for Kopitar and Doughty in a few years (But Carter would probably not be part of that in 3 years).

 

[davnlaguna]

I feel a 13 game winning streak coming up













Nope just gas

 

[PuckinUgly57]

Long one, grab a beer.

=)~~

Full, sweeping changes coming for sure. I'm betting Sutter is gone because we want to get younger and I don't trust Sutter with training young guys. A year off for Kopitar knowing he's the capitan should be good as well. I hope he challenges himself this summer to get back to why LA decided to cave and pay him with the Toews and Kane's of the league. He has finally started scoring though, with 4 in his last 8, so maybe the next 9 years of his Contract won't eat at us so hard (He now has 10 for the year, which is $1mil per goal).

This team needs to be retooled for certain. The talent level has dropped, signings and trades haven't worked out and it seems the draft picks aren't developing as they were.

Sutter loves his veterans, he always has but he also puts younger players in position to succeed and eases them in. Look back on young players who the Kings have drafted and they were worked in with Sutter – Toffoli, Pearson, Dowd, Andreoff, King, Nolan, etc. He has a rep for being a hard ass with kids but if you look closely it’s a very controlled deployment. He was like this in SJ and Calgary too.

Kopitar - I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but his lack of production doesn’t bother me much this season. He is still dominating all areas of the ice except the stat sheet. Considering he has led the team in scoring for 9-10 straight years, how he has morphed into a top 3 center, Selke winner, captain and face of the franchise he is paid what he should be paid. It’s not his fault the market was set. Let me ask you this…if he still made his $6.8 million, would his current production be palatable to you or anyone else? Is it the money that bugs you?

I’m pretty tough on players as you know, and I think after essentially carrying this franchise the last decade if he has 1 off year it can be given a pass. Now a year from now at the end of 2017-18 if this is still going on, it will be time to raise some eyebrows.

He has struggled no more or less than anyone else on the team this year. I wish I had an explanation why they seem to be even more goal starved than we are used to but there have been so many moving parts contributing to that it’s hard for me to pin it on any one single player, coach or thing. It’s really baffling, like Bermuda Triangle baffling this season.

I seriously consider moving Muzzin for a top forward (if possible) because I like the rest of the younger d, and there seems to be league-wide obsession with that guy (Muzzin the analytics darling). I also like that we actually have our first round pick this year, so that's a start as well.

On the same page with you here, although for a majority of Muffin’s LA career I have wanted him traded. Seems like this season he has been really bad too, lots of bad reads, passes, shots, lack of physical play and for some reason he looks slow (not that he was fleet footed anyway). Saw an article somewhere where his drop in play this season was a full one pager, may be the LA Times - he is well aware his play has taken a hit this season. Dude stinks this year any way you cut it.

Yet he still racks up those metric points, which would be great if this were a video game, but unfortunately those metrics don’t equal goals which the Kings desperately needed all season long. I had him pinned for 40-45 points at the beginning of the season, he will not come close. He is a team worst -21 too logging the second most minutes on the blue line. Considering this team is ranked 4th in GA, 1st in SA and 3rd on the PK, they have their defensive structure down pat – no excuse to be that bad. Reminds of Jack Johnson circa 2007.

And as we have been accustomed to seeing, his turnovers and bad decisions tend to haunt LA at the worst possible time. Sure it may be one screw up, but it generally happens in a leading 2-1 game with 2:00 left – that sort of thing.

My gut is telling me he is about to go into a big time spiral and it would be best to move him now and get some T6 or even T9 help using him as the centerpiece. Forbort, Gravel and LaDue (to a lesser degree – he got schooled twice last night against Gaudreau, once leading to a goal) all have shown to be capable defenders this season. He has 3 years/$12 million left, money spent well elsewhere.

I wouldn’t mind moving the 1st round pick this season since it is a weak draft but then again you look at the 1st round picks the Kings have moved the last 5 years and it may be a good time to hang onto it. Maybe they can use it to drop down and acquire another pick in the 2nd or 3rd round to stock the farm.

I truly question resigning Toffoli for anything close to or over $6mil/year, because I personally just don't see it. Pavelski and Couture make $6mil/year and I think they are far more effective for their team.

Toffoli is in an interesting one. He’s not even in the same ballpark as Couture and Pavelski in my opinion although I do like him.

Goal scorers are streaky as we know, and maybe I just keep my eye on him more than I do others but Toffoli seems REALLY streaky. I’m not sure if he is still recovering from the injury or what but until his 2 goal game against AZ last week I haven’t really noticed him much since his return. And even then, it’s AZ so the quality of competition should be taken into account (although the Kings lost – what does that say?).

The issue is he is arbitration eligible and based on the Kings’ cap situation pretty exposed to an Offer Sheet. One way around it would be for the Kings to take him to arbitration, which eliminates Offer Sheets from other teams. The caveat is they have to honor whatever deal the arbiter decides on. Pearson is in the same boat as well, and both guys are 24 and a team can take 2 guys to arbitration per season and this would be the place to exercise that right.

Did a quick stat check on Toffoli and career comps are Tyler Johnson as the closest then Gustav Nyquist, Ryan Johansen, Sean Monahan and Reilly Smith. Johansen and Johnson are both RFAs this summer and made $4 million and $3.33 million respectively this past season.

The other guys have deals in place already:

Nyquist 4 years/$19 million/$4.75 cap hit/July 2015
Monahan 7 years/$44.625 million/$6.375 cap hit/August 2016
Smith 5 years/$25 million/$5 million cap hit/ July 2016

A quick peek tells you Toffoli should be around $4-5 million a season under the new deal. The question is a) will he take it? and b) will it be a short term or long term deal? This was his bridge deal and while he exceeded the value on it last year I do not believe he did or will this year.

If it came down to it and one of them had to go, honestly I would move Toffoli. Pearson has really blossomed after a very slow NHL start, has better wheels, is more physical and seems to make more happen. Pearson has leadership qualities written all over him, it seems he has embraced his role in LA and has somewhat taken ownership and responsibility to produce. I cannot say the same for Toffoli but you know his agent will ask for $6 million at least.

Just my .02

Quick would have probably gotten us into a Playoff spot, but this team's identity needs to be re-created in the coming year/years. I would even consider taking next year to retool as well. Create a new window for Kopitar and Doughty in a few years (But Carter would probably not be part of that in 3 years).

Agreed.

 

[Kings4OT]

Kopitar has played well, even tho the points aren't there. TT is a goal scorer, if he is moved it will haunt this franchise....book it....I mean, the guy is 3rd on the team in goals and was hurt and played what 20 games less then everyone?? If he wasn't hurt you could say he would have gotten 6-7 more goals in those 20 games and he would have around 20...and that is in a "low" season seriously he is not a problem. Muffin, dump him for nothing I don't care at this point. So sick of hearing how we need him....na, I can do without him

 

[PuckinUgly57]

More evidence of Corsi and how it should not mean jack:

Los Angeles Kings win Corsi handily, but get stomped by Edmonton Oilers thoroughly

3 Grade A chances...that's it - 3. I've said it all along, cycling a puck 5000 times in the corner, sending it back to the point for a low percentage shot and then hoping for a rebound or doing the same cycling 5000 times in the corner only to take a bad angle shot from close to the goal line means nothing. I'll take a beating in the metrics department if that means 5 high quality shots from 15 feet in the slot resulting in 3 goals as opposed to hanging onto the puck and not generating a quality chance.

I didn't see the game, was out and about with the kids and stuff, but listened on the radio. The moment I put it on 790 Nickson says "and Toffoli takes a shot from the boards by the blueline, resulting in padded stats for the goaltender". Pretty much sums it up.

I'm over the metrics thing, it's a piece of the puzzle but that is it. It does not mean you are a good team/player (or a bad team/player). This organization needs to change its playing philosophy, which means changing its personnel.

Brings up Muzzin - trade him for some T6 help and let LaDue, Forbort and Gravel get full time gigs. That leaves Doughty and Martinez as the veterans so ditch McNabb, or make him the seventh defender, and sign another veteran UFA defender in the off season who can handle T3-4 minutes, preferably a RH shot although those are hard to find.

 

[PuckinUgly57]

Kopitar has played well, even tho the points aren't there. TT is a goal scorer, if he is moved it will haunt this franchise....book it....I mean, the guy is 3rd on the team in goals and was hurt and played what 20 games less then everyone?? If he wasn't hurt you could say he would have gotten 6-7 more goals in those 20 games and he would have around 20...and that is in a "low" season seriously he is not a problem. Muffin, dump him for nothing I don't care at this point. So sick of hearing how we need him....na, I can do without him

The Kings need to capitalize on Muzzin's analytics reputation and get a T6 forward for him. I addressed the defense above, or how I would go about it anyway. They would need to trim some fat from the B6 forwards to make it happen financially but it's a better option in my opinion not to mention it isn't a complete rebuild and still contains many talented pieces. This team needs tweaking, not blowing up.

Toffoli, I agree he is a goal scorer but he isn't a consistent one. His magic number is 5, looking over his game log he tends to have a bunch of 5 game MIAs - I just counted 6 of them, with the last one being he longest at 7 games (2 goal game against AZ - if you really want to nitpick, were it not for that 2 goal game he would have went 10 games without a goal) - the Kings cannot depend on someone like that because he will score in bunches which is nice, but the Kings need someone who can score consistently.

Those 5 game stretches equals 30 games minimum, the guy has only played in 52 so that means he has been a non factor in 58% of the games he has played in this season. Not acceptable for a goal scorer. While his goal total may be nice, considering the streakiness would you feel comfortable paying him $4-5 million? I personally would not, at least not until he can close the gap on those 5 game MIAs.

Pearson has done that, he has not been kept off the score sheet much in the last 3 months. That's why I mentioned what I did, he has arrived and is a more consistent threat than Toffoli is in addition to the things I mentioned above. I would be OK with trading Toffoli - this has been his pattern the last 2-3 years - and keeping Pearson if one of the two had to go, which is a reality considering the Kings' cap situation.

This actually brings up the Lucic trade to me, WTF was Lombardi thinking? There was no room for him financially, he took a huge gamble hoping for a discount rate, and I was on board with Lucic finding a way to stay here, but it was going to be very difficult. I supported the trade hoping there was going to be a way to keep him but that didn't happen as we saw. I thought Dumbo would be able to work some magic.

Dumbo rolled the dice on a third Cup in 5 years and instead he got a first round ass kicking AND a lost asset AND bunch of assets that he had to trade.

 

[Stunner_At_Staples_Kings]

This is almost impressive. After the Edmonton game:

-The Kings were shut out for the ninth time this season and were held to either zero goals or one goal for the 23rd time in 72 games.

 

[Stunner_At_Staples_Kings]

Long one, grab a beer.

=)~~




Kopitar - I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but his lack of production doesn’t bother me much this season. He is still dominating all areas of the ice except the stat sheet. Considering he has led the team in scoring for 9-10 straight years, how he has morphed into a top 3 center, Selke winner, captain and face of the franchise he is paid what he should be paid. It’s not his fault the market was set. Let me ask you this…if he still made his $6.8 million, would his current production be palatable to you or anyone else? Is it the money that bugs you?

Yeah for sure the money factor is the biggest for me. I get part of it was this giant assumption that the cap was going to go up, so the $10mil/year would have theoretically been less of a percentage of the whole team's cap, and a lot of the cap struggles are because of that.

The lack of production does sincerely bother me though. Kopitar, by demanding that salary (Whether it be market, or the NHLPA etc.), has a certain amount of responsibility that I feel like he dropped the ball on (So far, in year 1 of 10). This team stripped Brown of the "C" and really challenged Kopitar this year, to which I just feel like he didn't handle it very well.

To say that he hasn't struggled anymore than anyone else is accurate (Because the whole team has struggled), but my counter argument is that his $10mil per year cap hit makes him exempt from this excuse. He should be able to pull this team through certain situations, and how many games would one goal have been the difference? Countless this year. 23 games so far (out of 72) the Kings scored 1 or 0 goals.

I like Kopitar, which is why this is so frustrating, but I don't think he is in the same category as Kane and Toews in that elite of all elites category. Chicago also has not won the cup since those two signed for $10.5mil/year as well, so I'm becoming of the belief that that maybe you can't win with a $10mil/year guy on your team, because you just can't afford enough other talent.

 

[Stunner_At_Staples_Kings]

Could this all change, yes (And I really hope it does). I just feel like this is an even bigger sample size than just this year, because I watched Joe Pavelski really dominate Kopitar last year in Playoffs too. I was watching the highlights from the Kings two previous championship runs and the teams were just so deep. Kopitar was instrumental, but he was FAR from the only guy in those runs, even though he is basically being paid like he was.

 

[PuckinUgly57]

This is almost impressive. After the Edmonton game:

-The Kings were shut out for the ninth time this season and were held to either zero goals or one goal for the 23rd time in 72 games.

That is friggin brutal.

 

[PuckinUgly57]

Yeah for sure the money factor is the biggest for me. I get part of it was this giant assumption that the cap was going to go up, so the $10mil/year would have theoretically been less of a percentage of the whole team's cap, and a lot of the cap struggles are because of that.

It was pretty well known prior to the contract the cap was not going to go up much, the whole NHLPA escalator clause and all that so LA new it was going to be a hefty amount no matter what. They didn’t invoke it until the last minute too if I recall so while it did give teams some cap relief, not a whole lot.

The issue here again is the market was set, that was not on Kopitar. We all knew he was going to get between $9-10 million whether or not the cap went up, the question was term. I wasn’t surprised at all to see him get $10 million/season.

The lack of production does sincerely bother me though. Kopitar, by demanding that salary (Whether it be market, or the NHLPA etc.), has a certain amount of responsibility that I feel like he dropped the ball on (So far, in year 1 of 10). This team stripped Brown of the "C" and really challenged Kopitar this year, to which I just feel like he didn't handle it very well.

Valid point, no question. A lot of responsibility was heaped on him and I think rightfully so, the last 3-4 years or so of his last deal this team really did shift in leadership to him and Doughty to a lesser degree as Brown was more of the de facto captain than a real captain. But on the other hand, LA has always been a leadership by committee team with this core group of players, so slapping a C on Kopitar’s jersey shouldn’t have really hampered him so I agree with you on that, he should be producing more than he has based on his contract. He did not keep his end of the bargain this year.

That brings up the point of Brown and his first year as captain (2008-09), he admitted after the season he had no clue what he was doing, had no idea what that entailed and how much responsibility came with it. He was nearing his peaking point as a player and to this day I still think he was the right choice for where the team was at the time, key phrase being at the time.

But we all gave him a pass didn’t we? I think so, and I think Kopitar deserves that same opportunity as well. Brown would go on to be a crappy captain IMO pretty much the rest of his captaincy (my “I’m disgusted” point was when Malkin elbowed Simmonds at the very end of a 5-1 or so blowout in 2008 or 2009, game ends, Brown skates by, does nothing and goes straight into the locker room – I knew we had a pussy as a captain immediately and it didn’t settle well with me), I’m hoping it’s not the same from Kopitar but he deserves a break his first year like all new captains are given.

Next season my expectations are going to be much higher for Kopitar – you got your one year acclimation period, time to show everyone why you were picked as captain. I want to see production, leadership, tutelage and overall team performance goals met.

To say that he hasn't struggled anymore than anyone else is accurate (Because the whole team has struggled), but my counter argument is that his $10mil per year cap hit makes him exempt from this excuse. He should be able to pull this team through certain situations, and how many games would one goal have been the difference? Countless this year. 23 games so far (out of 72) the Kings scored 1 or 0 goals.

I like Kopitar, which is why this is so frustrating, but I don't think he is in the same category as Kane and Toews in that elite of all elites category. Chicago also has not won the cup since those two signed for $10.5mil/year as well, so I'm becoming of the belief that that maybe you can't win with a $10mil/year guy on your team, because you just can't afford enough other talent.

He has underperformed no question. I expected more, the usual 70 points or so but then again I also expected the usual from a lot of guys.

Carter carried this team as much as he could but has slowed down considerably the last month plus or so and we all pretty much knew that when that happened, if no one else stepped up, things were not going to be good. Well, no one did and it looks like the Kings will miss the playoffs for the second time in three years with a brutal first round beat down sandwiched in between. This window has officially closed in my opinion, it was on its last legs last April.

I will disagree with you that Kopitar doesn’t belong in the same category as Toews but will agree he isn’t in the same class as Kane. Kopitar is regarded as one of the elite centers in the league and is paid as such, I’m sure 29 other teams would love to have him. Big, three-zone, skilled franchise centermen do not come along often.

I blame Dumbo for cap mismanagement not being able to field a better team more than I do Kopitar and his contract – Richards, Gaborik, Brown contracts all have hampered LA and did not allow for upgrades elsewhere and those are squarely on Dumbo’s shoulders.

 

[LoCal Kings]

But we all gave him a pass didn’t we? I think so, and I think Kopitar deserves that same opportunity as well. Brown would go on to be a crappy captain IMO pretty much the rest of his captaincy (my “I’m disgusted” point was when Malkin elbowed Simmonds at the very end of a 5-1 or so blowout in 2008 or 2009, game ends, Brown skates by, does nothing and goes straight into the locker room – I knew we had a pussy as a captain immediately and it didn’t settle well with me), I’m hoping it’s not the same from Kopitar but he deserves a break his first year like all new captains are given.

I remember that elbow. Somehow because Malkin is an elite superstar (and plays alongside the NHL's ultimate poster boy), he gets a pass for his dirty play.

Seems like when superstars like that make a dirty play, they usually only get shoved around in a scrum. But no one outright pummels them, or even gets them to drop the gloves. Maybe that is the issue, those guys won't drop the gloves, so its difficult to get after them when they blindside someone.

With two games left against Calgary, and the playoffs chances looking bleak, I'd say make the Tkachuk kid pay. Nothing dirty, but need to go after him.

 

[PuckinUgly57]

I remember that elbow. Somehow because Malkin is an elite superstar (and plays alongside the NHL's ultimate poster boy), he gets a pass for his dirty play.

Seems like when superstars like that make a dirty play, they usually only get shoved around in a scrum. But no one outright pummels them, or even gets them to drop the gloves. Maybe that is the issue, those guys won't drop the gloves, so its difficult to get after them when they blindside someone.

That play made me sick. Brown just looks at Simmonds hunched over and cruises on by like nothing happened. Any captain worth his salt confronts him at the very least, he didn't even do that. The Brown captaincy is full of incidents like that, not sticking up for teammates. Even worse, not sticking up for himself and letting others do the dirty work.

You're absolutely right, stars get away with that sort of thing because of their status alone but part of The Code too is also you don't go after a star even if he is guilty because they are the marketing machines of the league and therefore money in the players' wallets and an integral part of a specific team.

I did like how Malkin answered the bell a few weeks ago with Blake Wheeler, he pulled a rocket launch head hit the game before with the Jets and wasn't penalized, a scrum ensues and like you said he was insulated. The next game between the two Wheeler confronted him, Malkin dropped the gloves and they settled the score.

Very honorable between a star and what I would call a high-end player in Wheeler. That's the way it should be handled.

With two games left against Calgary, and the playoffs chances looking bleak, I'd say make the Tkachuk kid pay. Nothing dirty, but need to go after him.

I agree. I watched the Wild/SJ game last night and they showed the standings afterwards, the Kings were outside the 8 and Nashville was closest at 83 points. They reviewed the teams ad Milbury said the Kings are most likely not going to make the playoffs, they've lost too many games recently. Milbury is a dolt but for once I agreed with him - the Kings are done this season. Just way too much went sideways this season to overcome and to me anyway these last 10 games are a moot point no matter what - the teams ahead of them are going to be in.

Thus I do hope they make Tkachuk's life hell. He just got 2 games for the elbow but if you look at his OHL rap sheet he has disciplinary actions all over the place. He is flat out a dirty player, much like his dad, and he is going to get whopped up on one of thee days. I'm hoping one of the Kings just send him flying, a hipcheck from Doughty would be rad.

And speaking of stepping up for teammates, Tanner Pearson was the first (and only?) King to go right after Tkachuk after he elbowed Doughty. He plastered him against the boards, something Brown never did. Good example of the leadership qualities I mentioned earlier.

Would have been nice to see the likes of Andreoff or Clifford go after him but considering how important that game was I can see Sutter calling the dogs off. At this point however, I don't see a need to.

 

[Kings4OT]

I think you very very rarely if ever "call off the dogs". When someone takes a run or dirty hit to one of your top players you deal with it right then, maybe when its game 7 and everything on the line you don't risk it.....but as we saw the Kings came out gave up 2 quick goals and never recovered. Maybe I'm too old, but you just never let a team get away with that...it demoralizes your team, Kings didn't even "take it to them" with big hits or anything....just bent over took it and let the speed, skill and cockiness bury them. I mentioned quite a long time ago the window was about gone and it basically is. It is difficult to build a winner and even more difficult to keep it. I know everyone wants to be loyal, but you just cant be to everyone and keep winning unless they take a huge pay cut for each other.....which none of them really have so where is their loyalty? A GM needs to identify the key pieces and continue to build around those....Kings are not good at this nor can they adapt to another style of play. Hopefully a miracle happens and we lose a contract, but realistically this is the team we will see next season as well