POLL Top 10 poll #18: #18 player in history - Runoff 2

[MilkSpiller22]

Yes, but would the player be penalized for a doubly negative outcome?

Also, how would getting on base via an error play into it since that is technically an out for the player (in the sense that it counts as an at-bat but the player gets nothing to show for it in his stat line but a lower batting average)?

if you get on base via error it doesnt count for this... too hard to make it count... unless an out is made AND then the error... like for DPs...

 

[Clayton]

If my stats are right, Pujols is .341 against Maddux in 42 plate appearances. 4 SOs, 3 HRs, 6 RBIs, 1 2B and 1 sac fly.

 

[eaglesnut]

If my stats are right, Pujols is .341 against Maddux in 42 plate appearances. 4 SOs, 3 HRs, 6 RBIs, 1 2B and 1 sac fly.

End Maddux vs prime Pujols

Pujols started hot.

 

[eaglesnut]

Pujols grounded into 426 double plays.

Maddux only 15.

 

[eaglesnut]

Maddux had 182 sacrifices to move runners.

Pujols only 124.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Pujols grounded into 426 double plays.

Maddux only 15.

even more to prove your point...

Pujols pitched 1 inning and has a 36.00 ERA and a 4.00 WHIP...

 

[Clayton]

End Maddux vs prime Pujols

Pujols started hot.

2001 was still prime Maddux.

I think its fair to say overall that Pujols held his own against Clemens, Maddux and Johnson. Pedro not so much

 

[calsnowskier]

of coures... a double play would not be a productive out no matter what... even if another player advances...

even on errors, if an out is made, then it counts...

Bottom 10th
tie game
runners on 1st and 2nd, no out

batter hits into a gidp with the play resulting in man on 3rd, 2 outs.

I would qualify that as a productive AB

 

[calsnowskier]

If my stats are right, Pujols is .341 against Maddux in 42 plate appearances. 4 SOs, 3 HRs, 6 RBIs, 1 2B and 1 sac fly.

Head to head, imho, does not matter in this project. While we are debating Maddux vs Pujols, the larger discussion is Maddux vs the field and Pujols vs the field.

 

[Clayton]

Head to head, imho, does not matter in this project. While we are debating Maddux vs Pujols, the larger discussion is Maddux vs the field and Pujols vs the field.

Its fun to at least consider because batter v hitter is such a weird comparison in general.

I think Im actually going to concede here. Maddux's 2 prime years are better than anything Pujols did and Maddux was good for two more years than Pujols. Pujols was great for 2 more years than Maddux but I dont think thats quite enough to get it done.

I have to remember that the Pujols I remember in STL wasnt the same guy is whole career.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Bottom 10th
tie game
runners on 1st and 2nd, no out

batter hits into a gidp with the play resulting in man on 3rd, 2 outs.

I would qualify that as a productive AB

Might be a hole in the stat. But as you know stats need to context free.

 

[LHG]

End Maddux vs prime Pujols

Pujols started hot.

Their careers overlapped by 7 years. If Maddux was dominant for so long, he would have had a few dominant years while Pujols was in the league.

 

[Cedrique]

Bottom 10th
tie game
runners on 1st and 2nd, no out

batter hits into a gidp with the play resulting in man on 3rd, 2 outs.

I would qualify that as a productive AB

How is that productive? Now there's 2 outs so you pretty much need a hit to get a run. I think I'd rather have the guy strike out and get 2 chances for a single to win it.

 

[Cedrique]

Maddux had 182 sacrifices to move runners.

Pujols only 124.

That can't be right. No way Pujols has more than about 3 sacrifices

Edit- I see you're talking about Pujols' Sac Flies

 

[calsnowskier]

How is that productive? Now there's 2 outs so you pretty much need a hit to get a run. I think I'd rather have the guy strike out and get 2 chances for a single to win it.

Watching the Giants play the last few years, it seems we lost more games in that scenario than we won in all other scenarios. And we stranded Manfred runners on 2nd WAY too often, so I would have been happy to have advanced him to 3rd with a gidp.

 

[LHG]

Might as well start stumping for my three votes for #19 (thanks to cal for the formatting and some of the data):

Cy Young 1890 - 1911
CY every day of his life (no accolades given during his career)

Bold: ERA 2, K 2, WHIP 7, IP 2, K/BB 11; All Time wins leader

511-315 W-L
2803/1217 K/BB
815/749 GS/CG
7356.0 IP

Lefty Grove 1925 - 1941
1 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 2 top 10 MVP, 5 more season w MVP votes (Cy Young Award wasn't yet invented during his career)

Bold: ERA 9, K 6, WHIP 5, IP 0, K/BB 8

300-141 W-L
2266/1187 K/BB
457/298 GS/CG
3940.2 IP


Mike Trout (CF) 2011 - current
3 MVP, 6 top 5 MVP, ROY, 11 ASG
86.2, 65.1
Bold: R 4, RBI 1, SB 1, BB 3, TB 1, WAR 5

OPS+ buckets
190 - 1
180 - 2
170 - 4
160 - 3
The only seasons he didn't get in the ASG was the COVID season, his rookie campaign (late season debut) and 2024 (when he only got into 24 games). He also didn't get top 5 MVP votes, besides 2011 and 2024 was 2021 (36 games) and 2023 (82 games). His OPS+ for his injury shortened seasons were 132 (2023), 140 (2024) and 194 (2021).

 

[LHG]

Might as well start stumping for my three votes for #19 (thanks to cal for the formatting and some of the data):

Cy Young 1890 - 1911
CY every day of his life (no accolades given during his career)

Bold: ERA 2, K 2, WHIP 7, IP 2, K/BB 11; All Time wins leader

511-315 W-L
2803/1217 K/BB
815/749 GS/CG
7356.0 IP

Lefty Grove 1925 - 1941
1 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 2 top 10 MVP, 5 more season w MVP votes (Cy Young Award wasn't yet invented during his career)

Bold: ERA 9, K 6, WHIP 5, IP 0, K/BB 8

300-141 W-L
2266/1187 K/BB
457/298 GS/CG
3940.2 IP


Mike Trout (CF) 2011 - current
3 MVP, 6 top 5 MVP, ROY, 11 ASG
86.2, 65.1
Bold: R 4, RBI 1, SB 1, BB 3, TB 1, WAR 5

OPS+ buckets
190 - 1
180 - 2
170 - 4
160 - 3
The only seasons he didn't get in the ASG was the COVID season, his rookie campaign (late season debut) and 2024 (when he only got into 24 games). He also didn't get top 5 MVP votes, besides 2011 and 2024 was 2021 (36 games) and 2023 (82 games). His OPS+ for his injury shortened seasons were 132 (2023), 140 (2024) and 194 (2021).

And for those who may complain about saturation of eras, consider that Cy Young's first 16 seasons only saw no more than 2 other players on this list, Lefty Grove's last 12 seasons only saw 3 other players at any one time and Mike Trout's career started 2 years after anyone on this list retired.