POLL Top 10 poll #17: #17 player in history - Runoff 2

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for the #17 player in baseball history. Poll closes Wednesday AM.

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[MilkSpiller22]

lots in common for these 2...

both were not considered the best of their era... both are here for having a very long prime...

now becasue one is a pitcher and one is a position player, i cant do a direct comparison...

but the extended prime for Maddux was 12 seasons...

the extended prime for Speaker was 15 seasons...

Maddux had more best in the league seasons than Speaker... But speaker was in the same league as Cobb... Maddux for most of his career was not in the same league as Randy Johnson, Pedro or Clemens... so...??

I guess at the end of the day this will come down to my bias against pitchers vs my bias against the era speaker played in...

I may need time for this one...

 

[eaglesnut]

Maddux had 18 gold gloves

 

[steveringo]

Maddux for most of his career was not in the same league as Randy Johnson, Pedro or Clemens... so...??

I agree with this.... I think pitchers are much more valuable than hitters, so I'll go Mad Dog here....

Probably the smartest pitcher all time?

 

[calsnowskier]

Very difficult to compare and contrast.

Both were longevity players, but also both had elite primes. Speaker put up all-time elite batting numbers in the deadest of dead ball eras while Maddux put up all-time elite pitcher numbers in the livest of live ball eras.

They really are mirror images of each other. I am going Maddux, but there are just as many reasons to go Speaker here.

 

[DHoey]

Maddux's '92-'98 was fucking nuts.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Very difficult to compare and contrast.

Both were longevity players, but also both had elite primes. Speaker put up all-time elite batting numbers in the deadest of dead ball eras while Maddux put up all-time elite pitcher numbers in the livest of live ball eras.

They really are mirror images of each other. I am going Maddux, but there are just as many reasons to go Speaker here.

Speaker played in the dead ball era. But that only means there was no home runs. All the other stats back then were not exactly dead. And speaker didn’t hit home runs either. Not sure what this paragraph means. But his era should certainly not help him.

Same with maddux. We keep on mentioning how it was the steroid era and there was an offensive boom. But having 4 of the top 10 pitchers in that era might be telling us another story. Just not sure what that story is.

 

[broncosmitty]

I agree with this.... I think pitchers are much more valuable than hitters, so I'll go Mad Dog here....

Probably the smartest pitcher all time?

I’d prolly go with Mike Marshall as smartest pitcher. Just for sake of argument.

 

[nynasty]

I’d prolly go with Mike Marshall as smartest pitcher. Just for sake of argument.

Craig Breslow has a degree in molecular biophysics from Yale.

Just saying

 

[MilkSpiller22]

the more in depth i am going statistically on Maddux, the less i like him for a top 20...

i guess i have to go Tris here...

the NL kind of sucked, in the early to mid 90s, when Maddux did most of his dammage...

 

[calsnowskier]

Craig Breslow has a degree in molecular biophysics from Yale.

Just saying

Moonlight Graham was a doctor who delivered uncounted babies.

 

[calsnowskier]

the more in depth i am going statistically on Maddux, the less i like him for a top 20...

i guess i have to go Tris here...

the NL kind of sucked, in the early to mid 90s, when Maddux did most of his dammage...

What do you see that makes you think this?

Not that it matters. This is a run away…

 

[msgkings322]

Craig Breslow has a degree in molecular biophysics from Yale.

Just saying

Pfft everyone has one of those

 

[MilkSpiller22]

What do you see that makes you think this?

Not that it matters. This is a run away…

dont get me wrong, he is still an all time great... i just came out thinking he is not as good as i originally thought... and happier that we voted both Johnson and Clemens first...

but it certainly does not help him that his major competitors were on the same team as him... as again Pedro, Clemens and Johnson were not his competitors...

i guess pedro's first elite season was in 1997, when he was still with montreal...

 

[calsnowskier]

dont get me wrong, he is still an all time great... i just came out thinking he is not as good as i originally thought... and happier that we voted both Johnson and Clemens first...

but it certainly does not help him that his major competitors were on the same team as him... as again Pedro, Clemens and Johnson were not his competitors...

i guess pedro's first elite season was in 1997, when he was still with montreal...

We are STARTING from the assumption that these guys are great. Even Griffey who angered some of us with how close he came to getting a spot a few rounds back is still an all-time great and deserves serious consideration soon. None of the names we are discussing are schlubs.

i am just asking because maybe there is something in Maddux’s numbers that should cause me to reconsider him as my BPA.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

We are STARTING from the assumption that these guys are great. Even Griffey who angered some of us with how close he came to getting a spot a few rounds back is still an all-time great and deserves serious consideration soon. None of the names we are discussing are schlubs.

i am just asking because maybe there is something in Maddux’s numbers that should cause me to reconsider him as my BPA.

nothing about him... just his competition... should have been more clear, that when i went deeper into the research i started looking at the competition, and noticed a few things... now again, he still did what he did...

the NL was always thought to give you better statistics than the AL... because of the lack of DH, and other reasons as well..

 

[eaglesnut]

Moonlight Graham was a doctor who delivered uncounted babies.

And saved that kid from that hot dog

 

[calsnowskier]

nothing about him... just his competition... should have been more clear, that when i went deeper into the research i started looking at the competition, and noticed a few things... now again, he still did what he did...

But considering the competition is fair. Similar to my discussion yesterday with DHoey regarding Ichiro’s Japan numbers.

I am not certain what it matters that Maddux’s major competition was on his own team. He still got the #1 slot which typically meant he was going against the opponents #1 (I understand that doesn’t hold up 100%, but it does hold up more often than not). Further, he competed with (contemporarily, at least) Drabek, Kile, Hoffman, Smoltz, Glavine, Brown, Nomo, Johnson, Schilling, Pedro, etc.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

it actually brings up another interesting anomoly

most of the Elite of the elite SP were national league pitchers... Even Randy Johnson who we already voted in, had 4 of his 5 CY in the National league...

should we boost AL guys?? or penalize NL guys....

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But considering the competition is fair. Similar to my discussion yesterday with DHoey regarding Ichiro’s Japan numbers.

I am not certain what it matters that Maddux’s major competition was on his own team. He still got the #1 slot which typically meant he was going against the opponents #1 (I understand that doesn’t hold up 100%, but it does hold up more often than not). Further, he competed with (contemporarily, at least) Drabek, Kile, Hoffman, Smoltz, Glavine, Brown, Nomo, Johnson, Schilling, Pedro, etc.

its one thing when comparing him to a pitcher where we can actually compare stats with... but in a close race vs an offensive player, who even had a longer prime?? it was enough for me to take...

Now, i said that maddux might not even be in my top 20 anymore, but until we have 1vs 1 battles, i cant promise i will stick to that statement...

but before this, i had my top 2 being pujols and AROD... that wont change, because neither of them were taken off the table...