TCU, WVU and Utah Share Growing Pains

[bbwvfan]

Hmmm....no!

He has been in that program long enough to have built depth and continuity...sorry but you sound like the Blue kid from Georgia saying who they were going to show Wv what SEC speed looks like!...

Patterson had and has the players to contend...he just has a young team this year...that would be the only parallels you could draw between the programs...Why Utah is struggling is a mystery really...

He thought he had depth. Just like Bill Stewart thought he could have depth with 17 scholarship players per class. A different kind of depth is required in the BE... CUSA... MWC... than the Big 12.

Until you've been a part of a conference that requires quality depth, you can blame ignorance.

 

[JIMKOON]

Hmmm....no!

He has been in that program long enough to have built depth and continuity...sorry but you sound like the Blue kid from Georgia saying who they were going to show Wv what SEC speed looks like!...

Patterson had and has the players to contend...he just has a young team this year...that would be the only parallels you could draw between the programs...Why Utah is struggling is a mystery really...

My question Slaton is this. If he was recruiting for the MWC, and then a short mindset, the Big East, as we are seeing at WVU right now, what depth and continuity was he building for? The style of play, and players needed to execute under those conditions, were certainly not close in athletic ability to instantly win in the Big 12( total opposites actually, just as WVU and the Big east were total opposites). That completely mirrors the quality of depth WVU has lacked for two seasons, and is certainly not fixable in just two recruiting seasons. I don't think we had anyone super qualified to recruit in the Big 12 hotbeds of talent, without getting snickered at by the Texas and Oklahoma super recruiters. I grow tired of this young player excuse, even for us, because there are programs out there doing very well with freshman and soph level talent! I think I get some of what you are attempting to say, but it leans to far in assuming that there was distinct knowledge that we or TCU knew two years in advance that they were going to the Big 12, it had to upset the apple cart in overall direction for both staffs. Just my opinion.

 

[Slaton10]

My question Slaton is this. If he was recruiting for the MWC, and then a short mindset, the Big East, as we are seeing at WVU right now, what depth and continuity was he building for? The style of play, and players needed to execute under those conditions, were certainly not close in athletic ability to instantly win in the Big 12( total opposites actually, just as WVU and the Big east were total opposites). That completely mirrors the quality of depth WVU has lacked for two seasons, and is certainly not fixable in just two recruiting seasons. I don't think we had anyone super qualified to recruit in the Big 12 hotbeds of talent, without getting snickered at by the Texas and Oklahoma super recruiters. I grow tired of this young player excuse, even for us, because there are programs out there doing very well with freshman and soph level talent! I think I get some of what you are attempting to say, but it leans to far in assuming that there was distinct knowledge that we or TCU knew two years in advance that they were going to the Big 12, it had to upset the apple cart in overall direction for both staffs. Just my opinion.

Beleive me I understand what you both are saying but...I still don't buy it...If you take a look at TCU when they played in the Fiesta Bowl??..( I think)..that was one of the fastest defenses in the country...By a mile!!...they had 6 players drafted from that defense...3 went in the first two rounds...They recruit in the same area as Texas, TT, OU and Baylor..You both telling me that kids coming out of the same high schools running the same systems individually have different DNA? For Wv where the majority of kids come out of Florida? or Ohio??..Or Va??...Jim are you saying a Noel Devine would have struggled in the Big12?...Or Pat White ...Or Steve Slaton??..or Darius Reynaud and so on??..all those kids ran sub 4.3 40's.....Or kids like a Pacman Jones or Keith Tandy couldn't cover a wideout in the Big12??.I would likely give your arguments more weight if say they only recuited slow footed Western Pa kids but thats just not the case...Wv has always recuited speed at least in the last 12 years...

Now is TCU's lineman underdersized?..Honestly I'm not sure..Wv ran 5 guys that were all undersized but the offense was one of the fastest in the country...and could play with anyone...


I honestly think Wv should keep recruiting the same way they always have...my impressions of the first two seasons of the Big12 is ..."it is what we thought it was"....it's a Soft Conference!!..

I know Mac Brown is under fire at the moment, but I think the way has a changed the mentality of the Texas football team since Vince Young left is the right thing...it is more of a balanced pro set smash mouth football.....

I think the one mistake Dana maybe making.. (not sure honestly)...he is recuiting to match up with the other teams...I say screw that and get some tough kids in here and lay the wood....that will slow down any team wanting to use the center of the field....you don't think a reciever would think twice if they saw a Robert Sands back there?...they need to instill fear....not try and be like one of the other teams !!!!! Create their own Identity...the one the Entire Nation used to turn on everyweek to watch ...People knew who Wv was... A team that played with a chip on its shoulder every single snap!!!

My take on it and maybe this is what BB is trying to message, they do have a depth issue at certain positions....their recuiting has been stunted with all the changes in the last 5 years..no question about it and the program has been set back a bit....but at the end of the day I think the transition from the BE and Big12 has little bearing other than you are no longer trying to stop the run first...

 

[bbwvfan]

Beleive me I understand what you both are saying but...I still don't buy it...If you take a look at TCU when they played in the Fiesta Bowl??..( I think)..that was one of the fastest defenses in the country...By a mile!!...they had 6 players drafted from that defense...3 went in the first two rounds...They recruit in the same area as Texas, TT, OU and Baylor..You both telling me that kids coming out of the same high schools running the same systems individually have different DNA? For Wv where the majority of kids come out of Florida? or Ohio??..Or Va??...Jim are you saying a Noel Devine would have struggled in the Big12?...Or Pat White ...Or Steve Slaton??..or Darius Reynaud and so on??..all those kids ran sub 4.3 40's.....Or kids like a Pacman Jones or Keith Tandy couldn't cover a wideout in the Big12??.I would likely give your arguments more weight if say they only recuited slow footed Western Pa kids but thats just not the case...Wv has always recuited speed at least in the last 12 years...

Now is TCU's lineman underdersized?..Honestly I'm not sure..Wv ran 5 guys that were all undersized but the offense was one of the fastest in the country...and could play with anyone...


I honestly think Wv should keep recruiting the same way they always have...my impressions of the first two seasons of the Big12 is ..."it is what we thought it was"....it's a Soft Conference!!..

I know Mac Brown is under fire at the moment, but I think the way has a changed the mentality of the Texas football team since Vince Young left is the right thing...it is more of a balanced pro set smash mouth football.....

I think the one mistake Dana maybe making.. (not sure honestly)...he is recuiting to match up with the other teams...I say screw that and get some tough kids in here and lay the wood....that will slow down any team wanting to use the center of the field....you don't think a reciever would think twice if they saw a Robert Sands back there?...they need to instill fear....not try and be like one of the other teams !!!!! Create their own Identity...the one the Entire Nation used to turn on everyweek to watch ...People knew who Wv was... A team that played with a chip on its shoulder every single snap!!!

My take on it and maybe this is what BB is trying to message, they do have a depth issue at certain positions....their recuiting has been stunted with all the changes in the last 5 years..no question about it and the program has been set back a bit....but at the end of the day I think the transition from the BE and Big12 has little bearing other than you are no longer trying to stop the run first...

We are not on the same page.

I agree with you that TCU and WVU had good players who could beat anyone in a 1 gm scenario... like the BCS bowls each school has one over the big boys in the past.

But, the composition of the team put onto the field in a conference like the Big 12 requires deeper depth at certain positions than what either school had coming into their first two seasons. Patterson acknowledged this lack of depth... saying it might take a couple of more recruiting classes. Dana has talked about it since the day it was announced WVU was heading to the Big 12.

He remarked at the time, he could get away with only playing 40-44 kids in the BE, but it would require 60-66 kids in the Big 12.

 

[JIMKOON]

Beleive me I understand what you both are saying but...I still don't buy it...If you take a look at TCU when they played in the Fiesta Bowl??..( I think)..that was one of the fastest defenses in the country...By a mile!!...they had 6 players drafted from that defense...3 went in the first two rounds...They recruit in the same area as Texas, TT, OU and Baylor..You both telling me that kids coming out of the same high schools running the same systems individually have different DNA? For Wv where the majority of kids come out of Florida? or Ohio??..Or Va??...Jim are you saying a Noel Devine would have struggled in the Big12?...Or Pat White ...Or Steve Slaton??..or Darius Reynaud and so on??..all those kids ran sub 4.3 40's.....Or kids like a Pacman Jones or Keith Tandy couldn't cover a wideout in the Big12??.I would likely give your arguments more weight if say they only recuited slow footed Western Pa kids but thats just not the case...Wv has always recuited speed at least in the last 12 years...

Now is TCU's lineman underdersized?..Honestly I'm not sure..Wv ran 5 guys that were all undersized but the offense was one of the fastest in the country...and could play with anyone...


I honestly think Wv should keep recruiting the same way they always have...my impressions of the first two seasons of the Big12 is ..."it is what we thought it was"....it's a Soft Conference!!..

I know Mac Brown is under fire at the moment, but I think the way has a changed the mentality of the Texas football team since Vince Young left is the right thing...it is more of a balanced pro set smash mouth football.....

I think the one mistake Dana maybe making.. (not sure honestly)...he is recuiting to match up with the other teams...I say screw that and get some tough kids in here and lay the wood....that will slow down any team wanting to use the center of the field....you don't think a reciever would think twice if they saw a Robert Sands back there?...they need to instill fear....not try and be like one of the other teams !!!!! Create their own Identity...the one the Entire Nation used to turn on everyweek to watch ...People knew who Wv was... A team that played with a chip on its shoulder every single snap!!!

My take on it and maybe this is what BB is trying to message, they do have a depth issue at certain positions....their recuiting has been stunted with all the changes in the last 5 years..no question about it and the program has been set back a bit....but at the end of the day I think the transition from the BE and Big12 has little bearing other than you are no longer trying to stop the run first...

I know some will take offense to this, but WVU did not have the type of players to instantly compete in the Big 12, no way, and I also feel that, other than the single game issue where the Big 12 competition took us for granted, were we ever ready to compete on an entire season schedule of Big 12 opponents, nor do I think we had the ability with the ACC or SEC either, although those conferences were not near the gap we have with the Big 12. Sorry Slaton, but Pat White gets killed if we had been in the Big 12 for an entire season, now some of the other players may have been on a higher plain, for sure, but Pat White was no Vince Young(college career wise), yet both failed in the professional rank. While not wishing to greatly change our core player base to simply match some mythical conference standard, the overriding problem is exactly as BB has stated, in the past, we could endure(and pretty down well) at a depth 2 deep in ALL positions. The Big 12, and the number of play growth, requires consistency 3 players deep at ALL positions, and failure to get us there, will make the journey to the top of the conference, very very hard. TCU nor WVU were adequately prepared for a full season of Big 12 games, and our limited success in Bowl games every once in a while against the Big 12, was not surprising given the attitudes of opposing coaches taking advantage of our competitive spirit and demand for excellence on the field. Speed is great, not knocking it, but speed without stamina or intelligence, well, I could in my youth run very fast(and that ain't sayin much), but our fast players had no bulk(look at the size of Pat White versus Vince Young), add to that the consistent smallness of certain line positions, add the lack of depth, and it doesn't take very long to figure out that our first line(the only one with anything) we beat up by the beginning of the second half and the butt whippin was on. WVU in the Big 12 during the Pat White years, we are an un-ranked, middle fo the road team going to minor bowls. I know people don't want to believe it, but if we are honest in the evaluation of our talent levels, and look at the championship teams of that period, it is not vey hard to figure out.

 

[Slaton10]

I know some will take offense to this, but WVU did not have the type of players to instantly compete in the Big 12, no way, and I also feel that, other than the single game issue where the Big 12 competition took us for granted, were we ever ready to compete on an entire season schedule of Big 12 opponents, nor do I think we had the ability with the ACC or SEC either, although those conferences were not near the gap we have with the Big 12. Sorry Slaton, but Pat White gets killed if we had been in the Big 12 for an entire season, now some of the other players may have been on a higher plain, for sure, but Pat White was no Vince Young(college career wise), yet both failed in the professional rank. While not wishing to greatly change our core player base to simply match some mythical conference standard, the overriding problem is exactly as BB has stated, in the past, we could endure(and pretty down well) at a depth 2 deep in ALL positions. The Big 12, and the number of play growth, requires consistency 3 players deep at ALL positions, and failure to get us there, will make the journey to the top of the conference, very very hard. TCU nor WVU were adequately prepared for a full season of Big 12 games, and our limited success in Bowl games every once in a while against the Big 12, was not surprising given the attitudes of opposing coaches taking advantage of our competitive spirit and demand for excellence on the field. Speed is great, not knocking it, but speed without stamina or intelligence, well, I could in my youth run very fast(and that ain't sayin much), but our fast players had no bulk(look at the size of Pat White versus Vince Young), add to that the consistent smallness of certain line positions, add the lack of depth, and it doesn't take very long to figure out that our first line(the only one with anything) we beat up by the beginning of the second half and the butt whippin was on. WVU in the Big 12 during the Pat White years, we are an un-ranked, middle fo the road team going to minor bowls. I know people don't want to believe it, but if we are honest in the evaluation of our talent levels, and look at the championship teams of that period, it is not vey hard to figure out.

I guess we will all agree to disagree...which is OKAY!!......But honestly Pat White was running a new style of offense...he was running the power spread and he would have been highly successful against the defensive makeup against the majority of teams in the Big12...they are all still running the read option today...and who in the country ran it better than Pat White??...was he a better player than Vince Young..no....did he run a read option better than Young...absolutely...BTW Pat White got killed in the Big East!..LOL...I think by comparison you go back and look at the players he played against vs the players Young played against I would bet you would be surprised just how many kids he played against that are still making a living on Sundays!....BTW Pat White is on an NFL roster...not sure where Vince Young is??

 

[Slaton10]

We are not on the same page.

I agree with you that TCU and WVU had good players who could beat anyone in a 1 gm scenario... like the BCS bowls each school has one over the big boys in the past.

But, the composition of the team put onto the field in a conference like the Big 12 requires deeper depth at certain positions than what either school had coming into their first two seasons. Patterson acknowledged this lack of depth... saying it might take a couple of more recruiting classes. Dana has talked about it since the day it was announced WVU was heading to the Big 12.

He remarked at the time, he could get away with only playing 40-44 kids in the BE, but it would require 60-66 kids in the Big 12.

Not on ths same page?? again??.Shocker!!...

I must of have not been clear...I do agree they have depth issues at certain positions....pretty sure I said that and underscored it!!

That 60-66 number sounds high to me...but if that is the right number Wv will NEVER acheive it....not without getting 10 kids a year out of the home state that can play that caliber of football...

 

[JIMKOON]

I guess we will all agree to disagree...which is OKAY!!......But honestly Pat White was running a new style of offense...he was running the power spread and he would have been highly successful against the defensive makeup against the majority of teams in the Big12...they are all still running the read option today...and who in the country ran it better than Pat White??...was he a better player than Vince Young..no....did he run a read option better than Young...absolutely...BTW Pat White got killed in the Big East!..LOL...I think by comparison you go back and look at the players he played against vs the players Young played against I would bet you would be surprised just how many kids he played against that are still making a living on Sundays!....BTW Pat White is on an NFL roster...not sure where Vince Young is??

On some of your points, I don't completely disagree. Pat White did a very good job running the read option, in the Big Least, and he still took some big punishment. If that had been the Big 12, Pat White would not have played a full 3 seasons, no earthly way. Vince Young lost his confidence and mind in the NFL, and while Pat White is on a roster, he is so far behind RGIII, he is nothing more than a practice dummy, he will get to play a game if RGIII is dead, and maybe not then. I like him, but a pro quarterback, he is not. And where is that Slaton kid? Talk about a flash in the pan.

 

[DCWV4life]

Pat White is not on a roster gents, same as Vince Young....even if you wanted to compare their short pro careers VY definitely has the advantage.

 

[bbwvfan]

Not on ths same page?? again??.Shocker!!...

I must of have not been clear...I do agree they have depth issues at certain positions....pretty sure I said that and underscored it!!

That 60-66 number sounds high to me...but if that is the right number Wv will NEVER acheive it....not without getting 10 kids a year out of the home state that can play that caliber of football...

You have said a lot of things, but you started out saying you didn't buy the premise… that there are depth issues. Then you acknowledge that there are depth issues.

All one has to do is go back to the TCU Rose Bowl team… or the PW and SS Sugar and Gator Bowl teams and look at the lack of depth on those teams. While WVU was special with PW and SS, until Noel joined the team… there was nobody behind either of those two who could equally replace them. Look what happened with Bill Stewart's teams when Noel got hurt against LSU.

Dana was able to RS 15 players this season. So, I don't know about your WV home state reference. Looks like he is building depth at WVU now.

 

[Slaton10]

You have said a lot of things, but you started out saying you didn't buy the premise… that there are depth issues. Then you acknowledge that there are depth issues.

All one has to do is go back to the TCU Rose Bowl team… or the PW and SS Sugar and Gator Bowl teams and look at the lack of depth on those teams. While WVU was special with PW and SS, until Noel joined the team… there was nobody behind either of those two who could equally replace them. Look what happened with Bill Stewart's teams when Noel got hurt against LSU.

Dana was able to RS 15 players this season. So, I don't know about your WV home state reference. Looks like he is building depth at WVU now.

I guess I am saying that I don't see a depth issue at every position...Secondary and maybe LB...

My comment about in - state talent is this....if Dana says he needs 66 game ready players that is 78% of his scholarship players...to get that number you are going to have to have more in -state talent to provide a sufficient base year in and year out...there is no way unless you are a top 5 program that you are going to get 78% 4 star or higher rectruits into Morgantown every year...it hasn't happened in the entire 100 plus years of Wv football...can't see it starting now...if he said 40% that seems to me to be more reasonable....

 

[bbwvfan]

I guess I am saying that I don't see a depth issue at every position...Secondary and maybe LB...

My comment about in - state talent is this....if Dana says he needs 66 game ready players that is 78% of his scholarship players...to get that number you are going to have to have more in -state talent to provide a sufficient base year in and year out...there is no way unless you are a top 5 program that you are going to get 78% 4 star or higher rectruits into Morgantown every year...it hasn't happened in the entire 100 plus years of Wv football...can't see it starting now...if he said 40% that seems to me to be more reasonable....

I don't know the TCU situation enough to comment about their depth issues. From what I've seen of WVU football in the Big 12, they need depth at RB, WR, and across every defensive position.

When addressing the numbers of players thrown into the game, I would have to look up the link. I know these numbers have been validated by some WVU beat writers... Jedd Drenning and Mike Casazza. The way it looks to me, Dana is at a point where he can RS kids in solid numbers. This should help solve the number of quality backups needed to challenge the rigors of the regular season over the next few years. When capable of doing this, you lower the stress of loading the recruiting classes with 4 and 5 star talent. Seems to me the plan.

 

[Anotherwvufan]

We will never be able to get 10 quality recruits from West Virginia and I do not see us ever being able to get the several 4 and 5 star recruits coming here. We will always be looking at 2-3 star kids with a couple of 4 or 5s mixed in every year. RR was able to take a bunch of 2 and 3 star kids and put together a good team. Even Nehlen had his years with substar talent.

What is needed is good evaluation and development. There are alot of diamonds in the rough and kids who develop in their senior years. Finding these guys and then being able to redshirt them and put them in a good strength program can make a big difference. Mid majors always have a couple of first round NFL picks.

Depth is such a big issue in CFB these days. The second string is becoming more important. Baylor was unstoppable early in the season. Take away their top 2 RBs, Top reciever, Top OL and a couple of defensive starters, and we see what happened. The Baylor that played OSU was not the same team that wiped the field with us.

 

[Slaton10]

I don't know the TCU situation enough to comment about their depth issues. From what I've seen of WVU football in the Big 12, they need depth at RB, WR, and across every defensive position.

When addressing the numbers of players thrown into the game, I would have to look up the link. I know these numbers have been validated by some WVU beat writers... Jedd Drenning and Mike Casazza. The way it looks to me, Dana is at a point where he can RS kids in solid numbers. This should help solve the number of quality backups needed to challenge the rigors of the regular season over the next few years. When capable of doing this, you lower the stress of loading the recruiting classes with 4 and 5 star talent. Seems to me the plan.

Well we may see it a bit differently...I think they have depth at just about every position on Defense...Offensive Line needs more skilled players...but WR, RB they have plenty of...remember Russell Shell is part of that depth next year......

To me there is a difference in what you are saying...depth to redshirt...or depth that has 66 legit Big12 kids ready to play?

 

[bbwvfan]

Well we may see it a bit differently...I think they have depth at just about every position on Defense...Offensive Line needs more skilled players...but WR, RB they have plenty of...remember Russell Shell is part of that depth next year......

To me there is a difference in what you are saying...depth to redshirt...or depth that has 66 legit Big12 kids ready to play?

We are way off target.

I agree that depth at RB is solid at WVU... today... and next year. How did it look last year?

Depth at WR looks good for next year. Quality of depth I think will be improved next year. How did it look last year?

I think the quality of depth... to get to 66 kids ready to play in the Big 12... and having depth to RS go hand-in-hand. IMO... that is called building a program.

There is a reason why Dana hit the JUCO circuit so hard last year and this. It is all about building the foundation. The JUCO players give you guys ready to play today, which allows you to RS kids who need time to mature, get stronger... and get developed.... so they are ready in the future.

Neither WVU nor TCU were in position to do this. KU is attempting to do the same thing after so many different coaches have affected their roster.