So what's up with Huff?

[gp956]

Quit on the team? He did no such thing, dude is going through sme real tough shit. I'm positive his teammates are pulling for him.

Technically, yes, he did quit on the team. Nevertheless, you pulled that quote out of context.Within context, the post is wondering whether ACUTE mental health issues will be accepted by the 'jock world' like any other injury. The post is anticpating growth and acceptance of these issues even in the macho world of sports.

 

[gp956]

I wonder if Huff would say he has a lot in common with Wilson. That for quite some time (including last year perhaps?) he has been trying to play through his anxiety/mental issues/family problems and has failed to perform while doing so.

Perhaps the wisest choice is to shut down for a while and allow himself to heal, just like he would do if he had a strained shoulder.

Of course that is the analogy. I wonder, though, if Wilson would have shut himself down had he performed as poorly as Huff did last year? Stll, the dude couldn't hang for one more day knowing the team was short and playing a doubleheader?

 

[iHATEdodgers]

Technically, yes, he did quit on the team. Nevertheless, you pulled that quote out of context.Within context, the post is wondering whether ACUTE mental health issues will be accepted by the 'jock world' like any other injury. The post is anticpating growth and acceptance of these issues even in the macho world of sports.

I didn't pull anything out of context, your entire statement is quoted in my previous response. I disagree that "technically he quit on the team" - technically he's sick - I also dont think his teammates think he quit on them.

 

[calsnowskier]

Of course that is the analogy. I wonder, though, if Wilson would have shut himself down had he performed as poorly as Huff did last year? Stll, the dude couldn't hang for one more day knowing the team was short and playing a doubleheader?

First, let's state obvious...

None of us know much of the situation. We do not know if this is a relatively recent onset, or a nagging issue. We do not know if this is primarily personally caused, or professionally. In short, we are all talking out of our asses...

Which led me to feel I had to add to the discussion...

It is hard to blame Huffer for taking off when he did. IF he had some sort if breakdown, you cannot expect him to think rationally or logically. IT IS A MENTAL DISORDER.

To say he is at fault because his timing was bad is pretty shocking...

 

[Mays-Fan]

First, let's state obvious...

None of us know much of the situation. We do not know if this is a relatively recent onset, or a nagging issue. We do not know if this is primarily personally caused, or professionally. In short, we are all talking out of our asses...

Which led me to feel I had to add to the discussion...

It is hard to blame Huffer for taking off when he did. IF he had some sort if breakdown, you cannot expect him to think rationally or logically. IT IS A MENTAL DISORDER.

To say he is at fault because his timing was bad is pretty shocking...

Word.

I know it was tempting for a lot of us to get down on Huff, because we didn't know, and it was easy to speculate, easy to point fingers, easy to blame.

But now we know, at least much more than we did. And if we are compassionate, we have to understand that if his explanation is real, and we have no cause to doubt that, that mental/emotional issues can be every bit as debilitating as physical issues.

I wish Aubrey Lewis Huff III a swift and speedy recovery.

 

[sfsportsfan]

Heh, nice strawman. You must also think Wilson with a healthy arm is just the type of guy to text Bochy for off days.

Wilson plays an inning a game if that. slightly different.

 

[sfsportsfan]

Did you see Wilson finish out the game after he tore his ucl? Didn't he pitch all of 2011 with a strained ucl?

and yet, if it came out that his issues were the reason he was playing like shit, we'd blast him for not being a team player and doing what was best for the team.

i dont/wont ever see how being injured equates to quitting on your team.

 

[Epic Voidfield]

I don't agree that sfsf posted a strawman argument. I think he was simply drawing an analogy between one disability (elbow tendon) and another (anxiety).

A pretty good analogy if you ask me.

So, you think that a physical condition that completely stops a player from performing is the same as mental anxiety? If so, I'd like to know how you're making that measurement, because I seem to be on the fence when it comes to Huff. People think that anxiety is a one way street; ie, only during a slump. It can also happen during good streaks and good career years (think Andres Torres). That's why the analogy failed for me.

However, assuming Huff's anxiety is severe, then my problem with that is twofold: If Huff's anxiety is as taxing as the "disorder" and "injury" as a legitimate detriment, then I'm either pissed at Huff for keeping that shit secret for so long, or I'm pissed at the Giants for not probing more on his condition. Perhaps a combination of both. What worries me is that this caught teammates by surprise, which doesn't bode well for Huffer. On the surface (just from a behavioral standpoint), his justification for poor play seems more excuse-based (on the situation) than actually establishing a precedence of anxiety (based on disposition).

 

[sfsportsfan]

did/does Torres have anxiety issues? I thought he just had ADHD.

as far as his teammates being surprised by this, yes, they are a team and a family, but that doesnt mean he doesnt have his private life too. do you tell your parents everything?

hes just using it as an excuse for his poor play? Dontrelle Willis was diagnosed with anxiety issues when he was a Tiger. look how far off the map he fell. Look at Justin Duchscher(sp?). and probably the most famous baseball example would be Greinke.

its a legit injury, and to say he quit on the team for seeking help is ridiculous in my eyes.

 

[filosofy29]

First, let's state obvious...

None of us know much of the situation. We do not know if this is a relatively recent onset, or a nagging issue. We do not know if this is primarily personally caused, or professionally. In short, we are all talking out of our asses...

Which led me to feel I had to add to the discussion...

It is hard to blame Huffer for taking off when he did. IF he had some sort if breakdown, you cannot expect him to think rationally or logically. IT IS A MENTAL DISORDER.

To say he is at fault because his timing was bad is pretty shocking...

Pretty much this. We need to hear more information on this subject to reach any semi-valid conclusions.

In fairness to gp though, I think he was more wondering aloud of how the "macho" sports world would receive this. What he typed may have come out a little harsher than he intended (or maybe it didn't).

So, you think that a physical condition that completely stops a player from performing is the same as mental anxiety? If so, I'd like to know how you're making that measurement, because I seem to be on the fence when it comes to Huff. People think that anxiety is a one way street; ie, only during a slump. It can also happen during good streaks and good career years (think Andres Torres). That's why the analogy failed for me.

However, assuming Huff's anxiety is severe, then my problem with that is twofold: If Huff's anxiety is as taxing as the "disorder" and "injury" as a legitimate detriment, then I'm either pissed at Huff for keeping that shit secret for so long, or I'm pissed at the Giants for not probing more on his condition. Perhaps a combination of both. What worries me is that this caught teammates by surprise, which doesn't bode well for Huffer. On the surface (just from a behavioral standpoint), his justification for poor play seems more excuse-based (on the situation) than actually establishing a precedence of anxiety (based on disposition).

It can. Anxiety and Panic disorders can be very debilitating. It may not stop a player from swinging a bat or catching/throwing a ball, but it can sieze him up physically in mentally stressful/demanding times. And yes, you are correct that anxiety happens during good and bad times.

I suffered from Anxiety and was Alternate Captain of my hockey team at the time and I kept if from them like no other. Didn't want to be considered weak or strange. I didn't even know what I was going through, how could I explain it to a bunch of buddies who had never even heard of it? Anxiety and Panic disorders make completely irrational thoughts seem not only entirely plausibe, but probable as well. I lived with 5 of the hockey guys in the same house in college at the time. It's not a fun thing to openly talk about.....especially when it could possibly have been the divorce (for Huff) that was the "stresser" to cause the anxiety. In my humble opinion, the best way to get rid of or lower Anxiety is to talk about it openly and to let people know when something isn't right. The sad thing is, it's one of the hardest things to do to tell people you love and care about that you're struggling internally and you don't know why.

 

[ColinCoby]

Pretty much this. We need to hear more information on this subject to reach any semi-valid conclusions.

In fairness to gp though, I think he was more wondering aloud of how the "macho" sports world would receive this. What he typed may have come out a little harsher than he intended (or maybe it didn't).



It can. Anxiety and Panic disorders can be very debilitating. It may not stop a player from swinging a bat or catching/throwing a ball, but it can sieze him up physically in mentally stressful/demanding times. And yes, you are correct that anxiety happens during good and bad times.

I suffered from Anxiety and was Alternate Captain of my hockey team at the time and I kept if from them like no other. Didn't want to be considered weak or strange. I didn't even know what I was going through, how could I explain it to a bunch of buddies who had never even heard of it? Anxiety and Panic disorders make completely irrational thoughts seem not only entirely plausibe, but probable as well. I lived with 5 of the hockey guys in the same house in college at the time. It's not a fun thing to openly talk about.....especially when it could possibly have been the divorce (for Huff) that was the "stresser" to cause the anxiety. In my humble opinion, the best way to get rid of or lower Anxiety is to talk about it openly and to let people know when something isn't right. The sad thing is, it's one of the hardest things to do to tell people you love and care about that you're struggling internally and you don't know why.

Great discussion guys, and excellent post filo.

 

[gp956]

I didn't pull anything out of context, your entire statement is quoted in my previous response. I disagree that "technically he quit on the team" - technically he's sick - I also dont think his teammates think he quit on them.

You wrote "he quit on the team?" and ignored the rest of the content of my post, which was a pretty important part of the information I wanted to convey there.

The sentence "he quit on the team, after all" is a form of "overcasting" which is designed to highlight the following point, which was: "Whether he's accepted back will tell us a lot about this team, and perhaps, the acceptance of acute mental health issues in general within baseball".

 

[gp956]

and yet, if it came out that his issues were the reason he was playing like shit, we'd blast him for not being a team player and doing what was best for the team.

i dont/wont ever see how being injured equates to quitting on your team.

Here's the crux of the analogy. Even with a strained UCL, knowing his career was on the line, Wilson still went out there and pitched - perhaps because he knew he was the Giants best option to close. He wasn't hurting the team by being out there and taking up a roster spot.

For those you want to say that Huff's problems in 2011 were due to mental issues, but he "gutted it out" just like Wilson - that's where the analogy breaks down. Huff's performance killed the team last year, and his presence on the roster blocked a top prospect. So to push that theme to it's logical conclusion - he "selfishly" played in 2011, and then "selfishly" left the team a player or two (theriot's status was still uncertain) short just before a doubleheader.

 

[gp956]

It can. Anxiety and Panic disorders can be very debilitating. It may not stop a player from swinging a bat or catching/throwing a ball, but it can sieze him up physically in mentally stressful/demanding times. And yes, you are correct that anxiety happens during good and bad times.

I suffered from Anxiety and was Alternate Captain of my hockey team at the time and I kept if from them like no other. Didn't want to be considered weak or strange. I didn't even know what I was going through, how could I explain it to a bunch of buddies who had never even heard of it? Anxiety and Panic disorders make completely irrational thoughts seem not only entirely plausibe, but probable as well. I lived with 5 of the hockey guys in the same house in college at the time. It's not a fun thing to openly talk about.....especially when it could possibly have been the divorce (for Huff) that was the "stresser" to cause the anxiety. In my humble opinion, the best way to get rid of or lower Anxiety is to talk about it openly and to let people know when something isn't right. The sad thing is, it's one of the hardest things to do to tell people you love and care about that you're struggling internally and you don't know why.

This I can see. Thanks for sharing it.

As an aside, I always had trouble with Huff's after game partying style. Given his back story of being a bit of a social outcast in high school and college, I thought his "style" as a professional player was a bit of a coping mechanism.

 

[Epic Voidfield]

In my humble opinion, the best way to get rid of or lower Anxiety is to talk about it openly and to let people know when something isn't right. The sad thing is, it's one of the hardest things to do to tell people you love and care about that you're struggling internally and you don't know why.

Repped for accuracy.

 

[CameronFrye]

Here's the crux of the analogy. Even with a strained UCL, knowing his career was on the line, Wilson still went out there and pitched - perhaps because he knew he was the Giants best option to close. He wasn't hurting the team by being out there and taking up a roster spot.

For those you want to say that Huff's problems in 2011 were due to mental issues, but he "gutted it out" just like Wilson - that's where the analogy breaks down. Huff's performance killed the team last year, and his presence on the roster blocked a top prospect. So to push that theme to it's logical conclusion - he "selfishly" played in 2011, and then "selfishly" left the team a player or two (theriot's status was still uncertain) short just before a doubleheader.

Nope. That is where YOUR analogy breaks down. You are basing value of an injured player based on the results the player had on the field before being shut down. By that logic, Robb Nen was the worst Giant ever. In 2002, he pitched with a torn labrum and essentially cost the team a World Series championship because he admitted that he knew he had nothing left. He knew it and went out there anyway because he still thought he was the best man for the job.

By your standards, his performance killed the Giants in 2002 and he blocked the path of more qualified pitchers that year by not revealing the extent of his injuries. He "selfishly" played in the post-season even though the Giants could have called on a different pitcher and likely gotten Troy Glaus out that night.

Aubrey Huff, just like Nen, is a professional athlete. All professional athletes have extreme confidence in themselves. So you have no right to differentiate between Huff and Wilson unless you want to call Nen the worst Giant ever.

 

[gp956]

You are basing value of an injured player based on the results the player had on the field before being shut down.

I'm not sure why you're using the word "value" here. It doesn't seem to have any relation to what I had in mind in my point.

By that logic, Robb Nen was the worst Giant ever. In 2002, he pitched with a torn labrum and essentially cost the team a World Series championship because he admitted that he knew he had nothing left. He knew it and went out there anyway because he still thought he was the best man for the job.

I recall Nen blew his shoulder out very late in the season. And the Giants were aware of the situation, that's why they turned off the stadium gun in late September.

By your standards, his performance killed the Giants in 2002 and he blocked the path of more qualified pitchers that year by not revealing the extent of his injuries.

Perhaps you'd like to try again. Nen's ERA+ in 2002 was 177, which is well above his career average. And if he blocked the path of "more qualified pitchers," I'd love to know who these guys were.

He "selfishly" played in the post-season even though the Giants could have called on a different pitcher and likely gotten Troy Glaus out that night.

The problem with your argument here is that Dusty knew Nen was hurt. If he had a better option you'd think he would have used that option. Of course, you have to leave Dusty ignorant of the situation in order to make your point, but that's just stretching the facts a bit too far to accept as a legitimate argument.

Now let's employ an honest counter-factual scenario that matches the Nen game six situation. Had Huff informed Bochy he was having a nervous breakdown that Monday, and yet Bochy insisted he come to the park anyway, and played him, then the outcome of that is all on Bochy. And Huff would get credit for "gutting it out".

Aubrey Huff, just like Nen, is a professional athlete. All professional athletes have extreme confidence in themselves.

This just is not true, but let's accept it as fact.

So you have no right to differentiate between Huff and Wilson unless you want to call Nen the worst Giant ever.

And yet this is still a nonsequitur in the extreme.

 

[SF11704]

Having had a bout or two with anxiety over the years I feel there are a few differences between a physical disorder and a mental disorder. Reading Filo's account of his Hockey days brings back a few unpleasant memories for me as well. I was not physically struggling during any eposides. Neither my friends nor team mates could really get a grasp on what was happening. I'm not sure that even I could. If I had a severe muscle strain it would have been very noticable to people. Mental 'quirks' are much more difficult to see (and understand) but they can produce or lead to some very poor results. For me it was concentration that was damaged. I just couldn't focus. I knew what to do. I knew how to do it but just couldn't hold concentation and/or focus at the level that was needed. It almost felt like a nervous energy that was next to impossible to control. For me a current example of this is what I feel Tiger may be going through. We all know he can play the game .... but something is different .... and I don't believe that it's a physical issue at this time. I feel that he has not yet dealt with all of the emotional stress he is dealing with

 

[iHATEdodgers]

You wrote "he quit on the team?" and ignored the rest of the content of my post, which was a pretty important part of the information I wanted to convey there.

The sentence "he quit on the team, after all" is a form of "overcasting" which is designed to highlight the following point, which was: "Whether he's accepted back will tell us a lot about this team, and perhaps, the acceptance of acute mental health issues in general within baseball".

I understand what you were trying to say - however he did not "technically" or otherwise quit on the team. He was placed on the DL. Like I said technically he is sick.

However, yes it will be interesting to see how the team responds to him. I think they will welcome him back.

 

[TheSaboteur]

Huff article:

Aubrey Huff opens up about his anxiety attacks