So, Howard tells Rockets he wants a 3rd superstar?

[tlance]

To look at it another way, how about this for a hypothetical:

You and I are each given control of an NBA team for a few weeks. We get 10 days to practice, like a mini training camp, and then we play 10 games against each other.

I get the Heat and you get the Bobcats. When we play, my Heat take 7 out of 10. That must make me the better coach right? My team won more games.

 

[Flauge]

The coach's job is to get the most out of the players. Simply measuring Spo by his win loss record against his peers is lazy. Clearly, the Heat have more talent than any team Thibs, Doc or even Carlisle have led over the last 3 years, or any coach not named Scott Brooks, for that matter.

Clearly the Heat have more talent than these other teams? How many people picked those Celtics/Mavs/Bulls to beat the Heat? Sure now in hind sight it is clear. When Spoles beat the bulls 2 years ago, Miami was the lower seed. Refuting evidence like a win/loss record by saying it is "lazy" is the definition of lazy. Pot meet kettle.

Plenty of people out there contended the Bulls were a more complete team than the Heat with DRose. Shit, half the analyst out there are saying the Heat are in trouble because DRose is coming back. The Heat have more talent than the C's? Kevin Garnett/Ray Allen/Paul Pierce were favored when they went up 3-2. Your arguments just completely ignore imperical data.

if Kobe is better than Lebron because 5 is greater than 2... Spoles isnt better than Thibs? Is 2 not greater than 0?

 

[Flauge]

To look at it another way, how about this for a hypothetical:

You and I are each given control of an NBA team for a few weeks. We get 10 days to practice, like a mini training camp, and then we play 10 games against each other.

I get the Heat and you get the Bobcats. When we play, my Heat take 7 out of 10. That must make me the better coach right? My team won more games.

So phil jackson isnt that great of a coach... those 90s bulls and 2000 lakers would also beat the bobcats.

 

[Flauge]

Spo is a good coach now and getting better. Lets not pretend it has nothing to do with the talent on the team. He needs to learn how to motivate his players better so there is always a consistent effort level.

Consistent effort? He has a higher playoff winning % than Thibs/Carlisle/and Doc. Do you guys really expect Miami to go 16-0 in every playoffs? The Heat were 16-7 these last two playoffs. That's a shade under a .700 playoff win percentage. WTF do you want? You act like the Spurs are a joke of a team. The pacers dont create matchup issues.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

The coach's job is to get the most out of the players. Simply measuring Spo by his win loss record against his peers is lazy. Clearly, the Heat have more talent than any team Thibs, Doc or even Carlisle have led over the last 3 years, or any coach not named Scott Brooks, for that matter.

If Spoelstra goes on to win an astounding number of rings, whether with the Heat or with multiple franchises like PJ did, then he will continue to move up the list.

For now, I say that the 5 coaches I listed get more out of their teams than the sum of the parts. I am not sure that Spoelstra does that, at least not every night.

Also, truly great coaches have the courage to make what they feel is the right call, even when it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Right or wrong, I respect Pop for having the courage to sit Duncan at the end of game 6 (clearly wrong in hindsight), just like I respect Bill Belichek for going for it 4th a 1 on their own 20 something vs. Peyton Manning and the Colts. I am pretty sure Spoelstra does not have the juice to make a decision like that, at least not yet.

PJ example: calling the game winning, last second play for Toni Kukoc instead of Pippen. When Pippen sulked, he took a seat on the bench.

Saying that the coach does not have any control over his team's lack of effort is also a cop out. 1 of two things are going on there:

1) The coach is not holding players accountable
2) The players don't fully respect the coach

But you took Vogel off of your list for doing the exact same thing??
He had his reasons to bench Hibbert. The Heat just executed a better play.

 

[tlance]

But you took Vogel off of your list for doing the exact same thing??
He had his reasons to bench Hibbert. The Heat just executed a better play.

And I respect him for it. If the Pacers prove to be more than a one hit wonder. I may move him back up.

 

[shitsho]

Consistent effort? He has a higher playoff winning % than Thibs/Carlisle/and Doc. Do you guys really expect Miami to go 16-0 in every playoffs? The Heat were 16-7 these last two playoffs. That's a shade under a .700 playoff win percentage. WTF do you want? You act like the Spurs are a joke of a team. The pacers dont create matchup issues.

I think you are confusing what I am saying. There are lots of time the Heat just dont give the effort required to win the game. It does not matter who they are playing. The team is so talented they end up coasting sometimes. That speaks to Spos ability to coax that effort out of the players every single game. If the Heat played with consistent effort all the time they would almost never lose by more than 10 points.

 

[tlance]

Clearly the Heat have more talent than these other teams? How many people picked those Celtics/Mavs/Bulls to beat the Heat? Sure now in hind sight it is clear. When Spoles beat the bulls 2 years ago, Miami was the lower seed. Refuting evidence like a win/loss record by saying it is "lazy" is the definition of lazy. Pot meet kettle.

Plenty of people out there contended the Bulls were a more complete team than the Heat with DRose. Shit, half the analyst out there are saying the Heat are in trouble because DRose is coming back. The Heat have more talent than the C's? Kevin Garnett/Ray Allen/Paul Pierce were favored when they went up 3-2. Your arguments just completely ignore imperical data.

if Kobe is better than Lebron because 5 is greater than 2... Spoles isnt better than Thibs? Is 2 not greater than 0?

If you base it on ring counts, then Russell is the greatest player ever, he will never be caught and there is no debate. There is a lot more to the conversation.

A lot of people chose those teams to beat the Heat for three reasons:

1) They felt like Spoelstra would be out-coached
2) They were not impressed by the Heat frontline
3) They are Heat haters

None of those reasons mean that the Heat have less talent. Yes, they lack a center and that is an issue, but because of the supreme talent of LeBron and Wade, they still overwhelm most teams.

I don't think any rational fan would suggest that any of those teams you mentioned have more talent than the Heat. They all matched up well with the Heat because they were, as you say, more complete teams. That, my friend, is a product of coaching.

 

[Flauge]

If you base it on ring counts, then Russell is the greatest player ever, he will never be caught and there is no debate. There is a lot more to the conversation.

A lot of people chose those teams to beat the Heat for three reasons:

1) They felt like Spoelstra would be out-coached
2) They were not impressed by the Heat frontline
3) They are Heat haters

None of those reasons mean that the Heat have less talent. Yes, they lack a center and that is an issue, but because of the supreme talent of LeBron and Wade, they still overwhelm most teams.

I don't think any rational fan would suggest that any of those teams you mentioned have more talent than the Heat. They all matched up well with the Heat because they were, as you say, more complete teams. That, my friend, is a product of coaching.

That's where we disagree. If Phil Jackson coached the bobcats would they be a more complete team than the Heat? Or could front office/drafting/trading/ability to attract players.. have a little something more to do with the completeness of your team.

Those Bulls and C's were deeper teams. More complete. Not just three stars. They had actual center. PGs that were going to tear miami apart. It never happened? Why? because of Spoles. Spoles adjusted his lineups where necessary to maximize their potential.

Spoles just out coached Pops in 7 games. Reinserting Battier into the lineup. He went small all game in game 4. out of nowhere. caught the Spurs off guard, and stole a game in SA... the one game that threw home court back in favor of miami. that move took guts. that move was alot more ballsy than sitting down Duncan for 30 or parker for one freaking possession. Spoles is alot better coach than anyone has given him credit for.

 

[tlance]

Consistent effort? He has a higher playoff winning % than Thibs/Carlisle/and Doc. Do you guys really expect Miami to go 16-0 in every playoffs? The Heat were 16-7 these last two playoffs. That's a shade under a .700 playoff win percentage. WTF do you want? You act like the Spurs are a joke of a team. The pacers dont create matchup issues.

Relax man. Nobody is saying Spoelstra isn't a good coach. We are just saying he isn't 2nd best in the NBA. The Spurs are a great team, but in those 2 games when the Heat got blown out, the Heat did not show up. Their help rotations are so lazy at times it literally pains me to watch it, and I am not even a Heat fan.

You can tell the difference between a great coach and a good coach by the way their team's do the little things. The Heat have some pretty poor habits, yet they win anyway because they are that good. If they played with focused attention on every possession, like the Spurs do, they would be damn near unbeatable.

 

[tlance]

That's where we disagree. If Phil Jackson coached the bobcats would they be a more complete team than the Heat? Or could front office/drafting/trading/ability to attract players.. have a little something more to do with the completeness of your team.

I am not saying PJ would make the Bobcats great. That is silly.

What I am saying is that if Thibs, or Marc Jackson or Doc were coaching the Heat, they might be even better than they are now. Scary thought.

I am not saying Spo should lose his job. That would be stupid. He is a good coach and continuity is very important when you have a good thing going.

 

[shitsho]

Spoles just out coached Pops in 7 games. Reinserting Battier into the lineup. He went small all game in game 4. out of nowhere. caught the Spurs off guard, and stole a game in SA... the one game that threw home court back in favor of miami. that move took guts. that move was alot more ballsy than sitting down Duncan for 30 or parker for one freaking possession. Spoles is alot better coach than anyone has given him credit for.

Thats just the X's and O's part of the game. I'm speaking about the trump card. When all of your schemes dont work will your team fight every single possession? Because of the talent level the Heat don't do that as a team. You can tell it bothers Spo alot. I don't know if Spo is talking too much or what. Sometimes when you talk too much people start tuning you out.

 

[Flauge]

Relax man. Nobody is saying Spoelstra isn't a good coach. We are just saying he isn't 2nd best in the NBA. The Spurs are a great team, but in those 2 games when the Heat got blown out, the Heat did not show up. Their help rotations are so lazy at times it literally pains me to watch it, and I am not even a Heat fan.

You can tell the difference between a great coach and a good coach by the way their team's do the little things. The Heat have some pretty poor habits, yet they win anyway because they are that good. If they played with focused attention on every possession, like the Spurs do, they would be damn near unbeatable.

The spurs got blown out twice that series too. Are the spurs a poorly coached team? the Heat were a top defensive team in almost every category this year and honestly the past 3 years. to say their defensive rotations are horrible is just not accurate. the heat by design, give up the 3 point shot. they do this because of their lack of front line depth. danny green and the spurs took advantage of this. the spurs were also a top team in the league at hitting the 3 this year. their offensive game plan is tailor made to beat miami. yet even with 3 future hall of famers. a role player breaking the 3 point record, and boris diaw looking shockingly competent.. the great Pops couldnt close out a series with 2 shots.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

I saw Spo repeatedly make adjustments against Pop and made him make mistakes. Spo's a good coach, I too gave him no credit in the past but rings talk and he's got a couple more than most coaches. Trying to calculate the importance of a coach to a team's success compared to the players seems like wasted effort, they go hand in hand.

 

[tlance]

Thats just the X's and O's part of the game. I'm speaking about the trump card. When all of your schemes dont work will your team fight every single possession? Because of the talent level the Heat don't do that as a team. You can tell it bothers Spo alot. I don't know if Spo is talking too much or what. Sometimes when you talk too much people start tuning you out.

Bingo.

Also Flauge,

I know you are a Heat fan, but this is a little silly. According to you:

You claim that the Heat have the best coach (or 2nd best)

The Best front office in the league

And the greatest player of all time.

Why then, has this team on the verge of elimination in both of their championship seasons? What is holding them back? There has to be a reason.

I know you aren't going to throw D Wade under the bus, so what is it? If all of these statements were true, the Heat would truly roll through everyone given the depth that they have around LeBron.

 

[Flauge]

Bingo.

Also Flauge,

I know you are a Heat fan, but this is a little silly. According to you:

You claim that the Heat have the best coach (or 2nd best)

The Best front office in the league

And the greatest player of all time.

Why then, has this team on the verge of elimination in both of their championship seasons? What is holding them back? There has to be a reason.

I know you aren't going to throw D Wade under the bus, so what is it? If all of these statements were true, the Heat would truly roll through everyone given the depth that they have around LeBron.

Whoa.. calm down there. I dont think Lebron is the greatest of all time yet. Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan.. all modern era players I would put ahead of Lebron right now. Before I call Lebron the greatest of all time I would like to see at least 85% of his resume. I also think Spoles is the second best coach in the league. Id still rate Pops ahead of him. I would also say we have the best front office in the league, because their moves to get the big 3 worked out. It's the result.

The reason this team was on the verge of elimination is they play other good teams. The Heat arent going to go 16-0 in the playoffs. In my rankings, I put the Spurs as the #2 front office with the best coach in the league, and would RIGHT NOW put duncan ahead of Lebron on the all time list. Just because I believe Miami is the best, doesnt mean I think the gap between them and #2 is insanely large. I dont think Doc Rivers sucks as a coach. I dont think Carlisle or Thibs suck either. It's like ranking NFL QBs... If I tell you I think Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the league, it doesnt mean I think Peyton Manning sucks.

 

[tlance]

The spurs got blown out twice that series too. Are the spurs a poorly coached team? the Heat were a top defensive team in almost every category this year and honestly the past 3 years. to say their defensive rotations are horrible is just not accurate. the heat by design, give up the 3 point shot. they do this because of their lack of front line depth. danny green and the spurs took advantage of this. the spurs were also a top team in the league at hitting the 3 this year. their offensive game plan is tailor made to beat miami. yet even with 3 future hall of famers. a role player breaking the 3 point record, and boris diaw looking shockingly competent.. the great Pops couldnt close out a series with 2 shots.

This is my last response on this. We clearly aren't going to see eye to eye.

Spo is very good
The Heat are very very good
The Spurs are very good

However. When I watch the way they played in games 2 and 4, I come away feeling cheated as a basketball fan. The Heat dominated those game because their energy level could not be matched. Spo's defense relies on speed and active hands, but the Heat have gotten used to playing through the motions at times because it is too easy. The Spurs embarrassed them in games 3 and 5 as a result.

Spo clearly knows what his team is not doing right, but he isn't able to get his team to play with the necessary energy every time they take the floor. I understand if the team comes out flat during a west coast swing in January, but the NBA Finals? Twice?

I am a high school coach. Some of LeBron and Wade's defensive habits are awful. They both overhelp at times, with their hands down when guarding shooters and neither of them get back on defense after they make a mistake on the other end. If one of my players does that, they are on the bench. No matter who it is. That type of effort is unacceptable.

Even at the end of game game 6 with like 2 minutes left, Wade turned the ball over in the left corner and started staring down the ref like he always does. Meanwhile, the Spurs were starting to take the ball out and would have had a advantage until freaking Udonnis Haslem stood up and yelled at Wade to "just play".

Sorry, but if the Heat players truly respected Spoelstra, those plays would not happen. It is obvious that he talks about that stuff to the team often, yet they still have poor habits and uneven effort.

 

[tlance]

Whoa.. calm down there. I dont think Lebron is the greatest of all time yet. Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan.. all modern era players I would put ahead of Lebron right now. Before I call Lebron the greatest of all time I would like to see at least 85% of his resume. I also think Spoles is the second best coach in the league. Id still rate Pops ahead of him. I would also say we have the best front office in the league, because their moves to get the big 3 worked out. It's the result.

The reason this team was on the verge of elimination is they play other good teams. The Heat arent going to go 16-0 in the playoffs. In my rankings, I put the Spurs as the #2 front office with the best coach in the league, and would RIGHT NOW put duncan ahead of Lebron on the all time list. Just because I believe Miami is the best, doesnt mean I think the gap between them and #2 is insanely large. I dont think Doc Rivers sucks as a coach. I dont think Carlisle or Thibs suck either. It's like ranking NFL QBs... If I tell you I think Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the league, it doesnt mean I think Peyton Manning sucks.

On the all time top 15 thread, you said:

1a LeBron
1b Jordan

 

[BOTSLAYER]

Saying that the coach does not have any control over his team's lack of effort is also a cop out. 1 of two things are going on there:

1) The coach is not holding players accountable
2) The players don't fully respect the coach

This is my only knock on Spo, but tbh what can he do? He is not going to sit LBJ ever he really has no power. Fine LBJ for conduct unbecoming of a player? or detrimental to the team? Come on, he just can't. At this level of basketball Xs and Os every one knows and every one is good at them. Why PJ was such a great coach was his ability to motivate and wage psychological warfare with his players into doing what he wanted them to do. A lot of that as luck because MJ and Pippen were so driven to succeed they did a lot of that. Then by the time he was in LA he had 6 rings and commanded a lot of respect.

if Kobe is better than Lebron because 5 is greater than 2... Spoles isnt better than Thibs? Is 2 not greater than 0?

No respected opinion thinks Kobe is a better player than LBJ. Sure he is currently higher on the GOAT list but that is not saying he is a better player.

They all matched up well with the Heat because they were, as you say, more complete teams. That, my friend, is a product of coaching.

That is more front office than coaching. GMing can be done a lot by the coach though.

The Best front office in the league

And the greatest player of all time.

Why then, has this team on the verge of elimination in both of their championship seasons? What is holding them back? There has to be a reason.

I know you aren't going to throw D Wade under the bus, so what is it? If all of these statements were true, the Heat would truly roll through everyone given the depth that they have around LeBron.

They might be the best front office in the game right now. They got 3 of the top 15 players on the same team and they all took pay cuts and sacrificed stats for the common good of the team. Whether they did that all on their own or Wade convinced them it still comes down to drafting the right player with the right mentality.

I have no problem throwing Wade under the bus or the their lack of a rebounding big. The fact is Wade is getting old and the front office has came up short there acquiring a 30 minute big. A lot is due to cap space etc but they did not even really go after a big last year until Birdman^2.

You can also make an argument that through 10 years in the league or age 28 LBJ is a GOAT player and well on pace to be the undisputed GOAT.

 

[BOTSLAYER]

Sorry, but if the Heat players truly respected Spoelstra, those plays would not happen. It is obvious that he talks about that stuff to the team often, yet they still have poor habits and uneven effort.

Can we fire Spo? Who would jump ship to be our HC? Could we get Thibs? Doc? Both seem rather blasphemous and if we went into preseason with Doc we would instantly be the most hated franchise in the history of sports but I truly wouldn't care. We are doing what it takes to win, ruthlessly. Before all that we should probably trade Wade for big who can rebound.