Raiders Fans Going "Full Retard."

[cdumler7]

Some of that is just going to be because quite a bit of that is a crapshoot. Are there some similar principles you can identify with Chiefs DB's and Raiders DB's? Sure, but it's disingenuous to point to where they are the same and ignore where they are not such as in off-man or straight up zone situations. Some of this is complicated by the hybridization of JDR's defense with Ken Norton's defense which draws more from Seattle's cover 3/2 system that has been popular lately. I would bet Smith starts off pretty slow but eventually settles in as decent.

But this is just a roundabout way of saying that teams that add talent from other teams probably aren't perfect fits, and don't usually perform quite like how you expect usually; but they usually trend downwards. Sometimes it's age related decline, sometimes it's injury, or a bad fit. Or a bad scheme altogether.



I've seen instances where the Raiders run plays on defense (and I think there are a few Raider articles out there that cherry pick these snaps) that'll work perfect for Smith, but yeah, in his case, it'd be pretty dishonest not to bring up the off-man/zone scheme the Raiders run as compared to what the Chiefs have been running which is supposed to be more dime heavy press-man. I've seen Raiders fans claim all the players they got were perfect fits, and that's a bit questionable. I can see Irvin fitting into their LEO-backer just fine, but he wasn't some stud exactly in Seattle either.


Usually, sometimes it's more cap related. With the Chiefs being so damn dime happy (them and the Cardinals practically have a fetish for FDR) I am not too convinced they want to have huge money in more than 2 DB's at a time, and they would be looking at 3 or more when Peters, et al, come due. I just don't think they felt that Smith was more than a niche CB, which makes Berry in reality the more valuable player even if he has a less valuable "position" per se. Osmel~ seems more like cap malpractice (cough Joe Flacco being paid to be elite cough) than anything else though. The other additions seem to fit more into what you're saying, however.



En masse? Sure, I could buy this- it's congruent with the historical profile of teams adding FA's but underperforming/flopping. Hence the pessimistic projections on the Raiders win total. Football Outsiders still has the Raiders as the worst team in the division for Pete's sake. Plenty of individual and small scale examples of success, however. Takes some imagination and smarts to work out FA to the net benefit of the team. A lot of small scale deals for DB's seem to work very well in niche/expanded roles every year for instance.



Keep in mind that two things are usually true if a team has a lot of cap space

1) The FO isn't very good- hence the lack of talent to suck up cap space
2) Lack of talent to suck up space- because the FO isn't very good

Usually ends up winding itself into a cycle of suckage.

Very good post. And agree with well really all of it.

I will say when teams do have the cap space and yet choose to not re-sign a high priced FA it usually means they see something in that player that just isn't worth keeping. That is why I just don't think Irvin will be quite what many of the Raiders fans are hoping. Heck Seattle showed that they stopped using him as a pass rusher most of the time. He is one of those guys with great speed but he just doesn't have the technique to be a consistent pass rusher. If he doesn't win with speed he doesn't win. And I know some Raiders fans have been thinking "well with Mack on the other side he will have a lot better opportunities" but not like Seattle was completely barren of pass rushers either. Part of what helped make their secondary so good was the fact that they had a very strong pass rush. Not best in the league mind you but still a good pass rush.

Also when it comes to "winning" FA I just look at last year where close to 500 players changed teams. Only 4 or 5 can't quite remember the exact number actually even got a Pro Bowl nod. When you factor in the fact that no year has had more Pro Bowl players than last year because of so many players backing out it just shows that if you are planning on winning FA isn't always your best bet to improve. Doesn't mean it can't happen as the Broncos have been very fortunate with getting guys like Peyton Manning, Emmanuel Sanders, TJ Ward, DeMarcus Ware, and Aqib Talib. That seems to be the exception not the norm though to have those players work out like they did. The Broncos have been very fortunate in FA scouting of finding talent and it actually living up to or even beyond expectations.

Right now with the Raiders though beyond just talent on the field I need to see that there has actually been a culture change. It isn't enough to just have talent. The entire organization from top to bottom has to show that the standards of the team are that of winning and being willing to make the necessary sacrifices to do so. At this point the Raiders haven't shown enough to say that this culture shift has actually happened. And as I and others have said we are not big believers in Jack Del Rio as the Head Coach. He is a very conservative coach and while that style can work ok against the bottom feeder teams it is when you get against the better teams where you need a coaching decision to impact the game positively he just isn't the guy I want making that decision. Now given he didn't leave Denver on the best of terms so I might be just a bit subjective on the subject but I just felt like he really wasted one of our most talented defensive units in the history of the Broncos in 2014. Hard to look past the fact that Phillips came in and with basically the same players dominated with defense. We don't win the Super Bowl in my opinion if Del Rio is still our DC this past year.

 

[cdumler7]

Well on the SB Nation Silver and Black site for the Raiders they are now talking about the idea of the Broncos trading Von Miller to them. I'm not saying trading Von Miller to another team can't be considered but there is no way unless the Raiders offered their next 4 1st round picks for Von that the Broncos would even consider trading their best player to a division rival. Throw in the Raiders do not have the Cap Space to even make it happen right now. They would have to rework some deals and even then could be a huge struggle. Now I guess they could sign Von to a Justin Houston style contract but man with both Carr and Mack coming up for new contracts over the next couple of years there is just no way they could even consider this unless they planned on losing one of those two guys. And again Elway trading to the Raiders our best player...Come on logic has to play a role at some point!

 

[xBxtxDx]

Well on the SB Nation Silver and Black site for the Raiders they are now talking about the idea of the Broncos trading Von Miller to them. I'm not saying trading Von Miller to another team can't be considered but there is no way unless the Raiders offered their next 4 1st round picks for Von that the Broncos would even consider trading their best player to a division rival. Throw in the Raiders do not have the Cap Space to even make it happen right now. They would have to rework some deals and even then could be a huge struggle. Now I guess they could sign Von to a Justin Houston style contract but man with both Carr and Mack coming up for new contracts over the next couple of years there is just no way they could even consider this unless they planned on losing one of those two guys. And again Elway trading to the Raiders our best player...Come on logic has to play a role at some point!

I heard about this article too and laughed because of the downright absurdity of it. First of all, Elway trading with the Raiders is absurd in its own, but as you said, giving up our best player? Uh, no. Plus, any dream of a Mack/Miller pass rush would be out of the question because the trade would probably have to include Mack and draft compensation, sorry Raiders fans, but Miller is the better player and it is not even close.

I also heard they mentioned something about them being able to absorb the cap hit since they have more cap room. The writer does not realize for some reason that we are already invested $15 M into Von this year and that the $4 M we have left will easily cover whatever hit we take from an extension with Von. Their $11 M in room is probably not going to cut it. Also, we have over $55 M in cap space next year while they only have somewhere around $45 M and as you said will need almost every dime of that shortly in order to sign Carr and Mack. Yes, they could rework a contract or two to free up some money, they just are nowhere near the needed money to get the deal done with Von.

 

[cdumler7]

I heard about this article too and laughed because of the downright absurdity of it. First of all, Elway trading with the Raiders is absurd in its own, but as you said, giving up our best player? Uh, no. Plus, any dream of a Mack/Miller pass rush would be out of the question because the trade would probably have to include Mack and draft compensation, sorry Raiders fans, but Miller is the better player and it is not even close.

I also heard they mentioned something about them being able to absorb the cap hit since they have more cap room. The writer does not realize for some reason that we are already invested $15 M into Von this year and that the $4 M we have left will easily cover whatever hit we take from an extension with Von. Their $11 M in room is probably not going to cut it. Also, we have over $55 M in cap space next year while they only have somewhere around $45 M and as you said will need almost every dime of that shortly in order to sign Carr and Mack. Yes, they could rework a contract or two to free up some money, they just are nowhere near the needed money to get the deal done with Von.

Too many people live in the Madden world these days where you can turn off the cap and get your team full of future HOF players. While it sounds great on paper it just doesn't work in the NFL World with a hard Cap. Had a discussion with a Raiders fan the other day if they thought us signing Von Miller to such a big contract was a good idea and I said that it depends how big the contract gets. Von Miller is one of the few that is worth big time money and will be able to be worth a few good players. Throw in us having Lynch who we hope develops into our starting QB to counter the big cap hit. Now I asked them back if they think signing both Carr and Mack to huge contracts that will both most likely rival even Von Miller's is a good idea for their team? They thought the question was stupid but to me that is going to be huge. Easier to build a great team when 2 of your best players are on rookie contracts. When those players get paid though depth takes a huge hit and you really begin to depend on the draft all the more to find success. That has been the good thing in Elway's time with the Broncos is pretty much every draft except 2013 has produced very high quality starters and for the most part 3-4 guys that contribute on a regular basis. Even that draft still gave us Sly Williams and Kayvon Webster who have both still found ways to make an impact.

Just to show the difference that a guy like Von Miller makes for our defense and why he is worth a huge contract...

This is not my work but have seen these stats before
2013 average yards allowed during Von's 6 game suspension--407 (equivalent that season to the 31st ranked defense in the league)
Average yards gained by those 6 offenses in the 2013 season--333 or about 23rd best offense in the league

2013 average yards allowed with Von Miller in the line up--325 or about 7th best defense
2013 average of those 10 offenses in the 2013 season--358 or about 10th best offense

I can go into more stats than those but honestly you see about the same results. We played better offenses after Von Miller's suspension yet our defense went from one of the 3 worst defenses in football to a top-10 defense just by him being added to the lineup. He is worth at least a touchdown a game just by his presence on the field. So I hope Elway and him can get something done and soon.

 

[Wamu]

 

[xBxtxDx]

Too many people live in the Madden world these days where you can turn off the cap and get your team full of future HOF players. While it sounds great on paper it just doesn't work in the NFL World with a hard Cap. Had a discussion with a Raiders fan the other day if they thought us signing Von Miller to such a big contract was a good idea and I said that it depends how big the contract gets. Von Miller is one of the few that is worth big time money and will be able to be worth a few good players. Throw in us having Lynch who we hope develops into our starting QB to counter the big cap hit. Now I asked them back if they think signing both Carr and Mack to huge contracts that will both most likely rival even Von Miller's is a good idea for their team? They thought the question was stupid but to me that is going to be huge. Easier to build a great team when 2 of your best players are on rookie contracts. When those players get paid though depth takes a huge hit and you really begin to depend on the draft all the more to find success. That has been the good thing in Elway's time with the Broncos is pretty much every draft except 2013 has produced very high quality starters and for the most part 3-4 guys that contribute on a regular basis. Even that draft still gave us Sly Williams and Kayvon Webster who have both still found ways to make an impact.

Just to show the difference that a guy like Von Miller makes for our defense and why he is worth a huge contract...

This is not my work but have seen these stats before
2013 average yards allowed during Von's 6 game suspension--407 (equivalent that season to the 31st ranked defense in the league)
Average yards gained by those 6 offenses in the 2013 season--333 or about 23rd best offense in the league

2013 average yards allowed with Von Miller in the line up--325 or about 7th best defense
2013 average of those 10 offenses in the 2013 season--358 or about 10th best offense

I can go into more stats than those but honestly you see about the same results. We played better offenses after Von Miller's suspension yet our defense went from one of the 3 worst defenses in football to a top-10 defense just by him being added to the lineup. He is worth at least a touchdown a game just by his presence on the field. So I hope Elway and him can get something done and soon.

If Von can keep his mouth shut, something will happen in the next couple of weeks. Von is just feeling disrespected and not being patient and realizing this is all just a matter of his agent and the team playing chicken and seeing who will flinch first. The closer and closer we get to July 15th, the more and more talking will occur.

 

[Wamu]

 

[cdumler7]

If Von can keep his mouth shut, something will happen in the next couple of weeks. Von is just feeling disrespected and not being patient and realizing this is all just a matter of his agent and the team playing chicken and seeing who will flinch first. The closer and closer we get to July 15th, the more and more talking will occur.

This is exactly what DT told Von to do. He said that he took things way too personal last year when going through the same situation and said just trust Elway and your agent to get something done. Unfortunately there is a business side to things when it comes to football and it isn't always pretty. What is best for the employer and the customer is not always best for the employee and vise versa. Elway has to think about the entire team and organization where Von has to think for himself and even for the players after him to get the big contracts. There is a push from the NFLPA to these big time players to get as much as they can to keep getting better contracts for their players. to me though that isn't in the best interest of the NFLPA. The NFL Owners are required to spend so much of the cap no matter what. All they are doing is making the rich players richer and making it harder for the middle class players to keep getting contracts when teams are pushed that much harder to get younger and cheaper options so they can pay for the high priced players.

 

[xBxtxDx]

This is exactly what DT told Von to do. He said that he took things way too personal last year when going through the same situation and said just trust Elway and your agent to get something done. Unfortunately there is a business side to things when it comes to football and it isn't always pretty. What is best for the employer and the customer is not always best for the employee and vise versa. Elway has to think about the entire team and organization where Von has to think for himself and even for the players after him to get the big contracts. There is a push from the NFLPA to these big time players to get as much as they can to keep getting better contracts for their players. to me though that isn't in the best interest of the NFLPA. The NFL Owners are required to spend so much of the cap no matter what. All they are doing is making the rich players richer and making it harder for the middle class players to keep getting contracts when teams are pushed that much harder to get younger and cheaper options so they can pay for the high priced players.

There is some truth in what you are saying, but at the same time, the middle of the road guys are finding contracts too if they are players worth giving the contract too. That is what I like about Elway, he determines the worth of the player to the team and then sets a line in the sand with them. Too many teams go over that line and overpay people they should not be giving those contracts too. This in turn sends them into a salary cap dilemma when they have to cut that contract loose to pay the next overpriced player and the downward spiral continues giving these teams less money to give to the middle of the road guys, thus giving the middle of the road player fewer teams to go to.

To make it easier to read, I see the problem as not in giving the money to the star players. That has always happened in every era of football, but in giving ludicrous and irresponsible contracts to unproven players (see Brock Osweiler) or good players that are not stars (see Fletcher Cox) or even average players (see Sam Bradford). That is where I see the NFLPA and the front offices making their mistakes at. I see teams like the Jaguars, the Eagles, the Texans, and the Raiders in trouble very quickly down the road and asking the people they just paid these high dollar contracts to, to take pay cuts so they can pay their actual up and coming stars.

 

[cdumler7]

There is some truth in what you are saying, but at the same time, the middle of the road guys are finding contracts too if they are players worth giving the contract too. That is what I like about Elway, he determines the worth of the player to the team and then sets a line in the sand with them. Too many teams go over that line and overpay people they should not be giving those contracts too. This in turn sends them into a salary cap dilemma when they have to cut that contract loose to pay the next overpriced player and the downward spiral continues giving these teams less money to give to the middle of the road guys, thus giving the middle of the road player fewer teams to go to.

To make it easier to read, I see the problem as not in giving the money to the star players. That has always happened in every era of football, but in giving ludicrous and irresponsible contracts to unproven players (see Brock Osweiler) or good players that are not stars (see Fletcher Cox) or even average players (see Sam Bradford). That is where I see the NFLPA and the front offices making their mistakes at. I see teams like the Jaguars, the Eagles, the Texans, and the Raiders in trouble very quickly down the road and asking the people they just paid these high dollar contracts to, to take pay cuts so they can pay their actual up and coming stars.

Good points. I do agree it is crazy to see so many unproven players get so many ridiculous contracts. Or heck in Sam Bradford's case a guy that has proven to be average at best yet still getting a huge contract. How many average QB's are making close to $20 million a year? How can teams not see that continuing to pay such ridiculous money to an average player is keeping their team from being anything but average moving forward? Those teams seem stuck in that 6-10 to 9-7 range that just doesn't give you the draft pick to get the top QB's in the draft and keep your team from trying to become a playoff contender year in and year out.

And I do agree Elway has done a great job of really setting a value for a player and being disciplined enough to stick to his guns. Yes it means talent has walked out the door but it also means we have not found ourselves in cap hell and we continue to put out one of the deeper rosters year in and year out. One of the biggest reasons we won the Super Bowl was not just because we had a great starting 11 on defense but many of their back ups were of high quality that gave us some great snaps where we didn't see a huge drop off from the starter to the back up. Thankfully for Elway he has bought himself some major leeway in continuing with this process after winning a Super Bowl and winning our division 5 years in a row. At least for me as a fan I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he is doing even with letting guys like Malik and Osweiler walk out the door. We have let guys just as talented walk out the door before and yet we are still doing just fine.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

I think we sweep you guys this year!! Yup Yup

 

[xBxtxDx]

I think we sweep you guys this year!! Yup Yup

Your first mistake here was you thought, you might want to stop that. It is causing you to be delusional.

 

[Mingo]

I have a comment. I don't mean to be critical of anyone - just want to sensitize people to the use of the term "Retard."

I'm sure I used the term in my life, but I don't any longer. For the last 40 years or so - I have worked in various volunteer capacities in Special Olympics. I would encourage anyone to attend a Special Olympic event in your area - if you have the opportunity. As I deliver this little lecture to the group - I do it knowing full well - I am probably using a term offensive to some group and I am - unaware of the impact my of my personal ignorance. I trust, if you find me in that you situation - you would stop and help me understand what I am missing.

In Texas a diagnosis of "Mental Retardation" and more recently - "Mentally Challenged" individuals comes after an IQ test below 70 and a couple of other clinical findings are confirmed. The first thing I found out when I began working with the Special Olympians - is that the Special Olympic athlete is no different a human being than I was - they were just born with a disorder they couldn't hide. Us normal people have our own defects, but we can sometimes successfully hide them - or more likely pretend the defects aren't there most of our lives. I don't use "retard" as a label because as a broad term it designates the Special Olympic athletes as somehow sub-human. The joy of Special Olympics is the joy of true sport - there is very little affectation in a winning Special Olympic athlete - the emotions you see in winning or losing or coming close -are as genuine as any emotion ever produced by an athlete. There is no commercial motive - no Hollywood agents waiting - just the pure joy of sport.

I respect anyone who reads to this line and wants to continue using the term - because it expresses something for them - I am just compelled to tell you what I think of the term.

 

[iknowftbll]

Mingo, you make a great point. I have a special needs cousin who is 31 and has the mind of an infant/toddler. It's sad the word "retarded" has been applied to special needs children. When I use it, I use a standard definition:
less advanced in mental, physical, or social development than is usual for one's age; foolish or stupid. This need not necessarily apply to special needs people, though your objection is both noted and well founded.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Your first mistake here was you thought, you might want to stop that. It is causing you to be delusional.

Why am i delusional??

 

[xBxtxDx]

Why am i delusional??

Your team has one win against Denver since 2011 and Denver is fielding one heck of a defense and all of a sudden you think the Raiders are world beaters? You think the loss of one player makes Denver's D all of a sudden a push over that your team is going to steam roll? Really? Coming in and saying I think the Raiders and Denver will split this year is one thing, I would not even bat an eye at that comment. However you said sweep and when you said that, yes, you are talking about something that is very, very not likely to happen. Good teams usually do not get beat by the same opponent twice in one year, it is actually a very, very hard thing to do and if you do not think the Broncos are a good team, sunshine, you are in for a big surprise. So yes, I do think you are delusional. Now stick that up your pipe and fuck off.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Your team has one win against Denver since 2011 and Denver is fielding one heck of a defense and all of a sudden you think the Raiders are world beaters? You think the loss of one player makes Denver's D all of a sudden a push over that your team is going to steam roll? Really? Coming in and saying I think the Raiders and Denver will split this year is one thing, I would not even bat an eye at that comment. However you said sweep and when you said that, yes, you are talking about something that is very, very not likely to happen. Good teams usually do not get beat by the same opponent twice in one year, it is actually a very, very hard thing to do and if you do not think the Broncos are a good team, sunshine, you are in for a big surprise. So yes, I do think you are delusional. Now stick that up your pipe and fuck off.

Your D ain't going to be all that dude.. And you have Sanchez as the QB, ,LOL!!

Hey,why act like a little bitch dude, that is if you are a dude.. Stay classy Donk fan!!

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Put a little heat on this dude, and he turns into a pussy!! Smh

 

[Dolemite censored]

Go Raiders !!!!!!!!!!

 

[cdumler7]

Your D ain't going to be all that dude.. And you have Sanchez as the QB, ,LOL!!

Hey,why act like a little bitch dude, that is if you are a dude.. Stay classy Donk fan!!

Idaho you are on thin ice. Remember this is a team board and you are the visitor here. You want to actually talk football that is great but to come on here to troll or call Bronco fans names and what not not going to allow it long. I've talked to you plenty on the Raiders board that you just like to stir up trouble and not really present anything actually football related. That is fine on your own board but just look at how Chiefs and Chargers fans come on here and actually present very logical and thought out posts that add to the conversation and respect where they are at and who they are talking to. I expect the same level from you if you are going to stay here long.